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Comment by iamricks | Hacker News Reader

The basic principles for buying a car:

- Don't buy new, on avg the first 2-3 years you take the biggest depreciation risk

- Don't finance with the dealership, go to a credit union like DCU

- Negotiate, even in times like this you can negotiate

- If you can't get outside financing and you have to get dealer financing for whatever reason, they make money from the financing, negotiate even further down because of this

- Depending on your state some fees are illegal, check your laws, negotiate the fees off

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My most recent car I bought at about a year old with 15k miles. It turns out it had previously been in a massive front end collision and the dealership described it as a "fender bender". The bumper and plastic under the engine starting falling off, parts started falling off that were clearly just glued on with gorilla glue, closer inspection in the engine bay showed a ton of bent metal structure, the paint color on the front of the car started to clearly not match the rest of the car after it had been exposed to sun for a year, the alternator died after a year and after removal it was clearly a really cheap non-OEM replacement. This was all from a reputable Toyota dealership in a major city.

Not sure I want to go through this process again and may just buy new in the future.

The hardest part of buying used is that it's so hard to find people who have taken care of their cars. If someone has gone 20-30% over the recommended oil change interval, you'll end up paying for that a lot on the tail end. This isn't to mention the many, many people I know who barely put any miles on their car, but change the oil based on mileage (instead of time), putting a ton of hard miles of short trips on the car. If they sell them, it looks like a great low-mileage car!

Some people have all the documentation of correct interval service for the car, but it's becoming rarer these days as cars just tend to work until they fail catastrophically, instead of years ago when they would sputter and fault in a gradual way before dying by the side of the road.

It depends on what kind of car you buy, an Audi that’s gone 30% over service interval is much different than a Toyota 30% over.

Also, this is why you should buy high end cars (from a reliable brand) from affluent areas, they are devalued because no one wants them there, and they are well maintained because rich people tend to just take it to the dealer, who will religiously follow the service interval.

Is the claim on this that the Audi can't go 30% over, but the Toyota can? or the other way around.

The nicest car I've ever owned is an Acura. Others include Ford, Hyundai, and Honda, and I've been pretty bad at routine maintenance, but I've never had any mechanical issues as a result.

Are premium car brands really so fragile? If so why would you recommend buying them if they're less durable? Seems like a rip off to me.

> Are premium car brands really so fragile?

yes and no. german cars tend to have tighter tolerances than your typical economy sedan. they can be very reliable if maintained properly, but they can't take as much neglect as a Corolla. the tradeoff is that, subjectively, they are often more pleasant to drive.

bmw would be an exception, being notorious for using plastic parts designed to last only the duration of the first lease.

> Is the claim on this that the Audi can't go 30% over, but the Toyota can? or the other way around.

Yes, but that is kind of an irrelevant claim.

There's wildly different engineering and service recommendation ethos between Europe and Japan and it shows.

He could have just as easily said Volvo and Nissan and been just as correct but that's not a batting practice pitch over home plate for HN's biases the way <luxury German brand> and <toyota/honda> is.

Can you point me to a luxury German brand that is as reliable as a Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura? Here's some facts to dispell the myth that Toyota/Lexus reliability is HN bias.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-lexus-makes-th...

"Ze Germans" aren't "reliable" by western metrics because that's not something their engineering culture strives for.

You're comparing apples to oranges using a scale derived for grapefruit and acting like it's some big accomplishment that the orange wins.

If Toyota was trying to build better driving machines than Audi, build to the bottom dollar like Chrysler or cram in new tech gimmicks like Kia they would score similarly in those qualities and in reliability because the tradeoffs are necessarily similiar.

All engineers have the same technology and supply chains at their disposal and the same laws of physics to constrain them. The reason Toyota's vehicles are reliable is because they make cars for people who want to pay top dollar for reliable. The reason Audi makes cars that drive great is because they make cars for people who want to pay top dollar for great driving.

At the end of the day it's just going to boil down to you a value judgement about which qualities are important.

The context of the discussion was reliable used cars.

If you buy a used Audi you are going to have a lot of problems. That’s what my comment addresses. The driving experience is not that good when the shocks are blown to shit, bearings are spun, or the timing chain inevitably fails and the pistons drive the valves through the head.

Also, my 4Runner will smoke most Audis, it has 385,000 kms on it, and I change the oil once or twice a year.

I bet most Audis the age and mileage of my 4Runner would start spinning bearings during a spirited drive, and my G35 just runs circles around them.

If you’re an idiot buy an Audi, if you’re looking for reliability buy a Toyota if you want a great sports car buy a Corvette. The only reason to buy an Audi is if you’re nostalgic for the Quattro days of rally.

I guess if you want to drive an iPhone they aren’t bad.

Audis are basically fat, slow and unreliable. (Yes they make some decent cars if you want to pay Z06 prices for Mustang performance with 6.0 powerstroke reliability.

Btw I’m German, I have a bit of an idea what the engineering culture is like. It’s basically an engineering circle jerk, anyone can make a big unreliable engine that produces less power in more space than a $300 pushrod LS.

The claim is that Toyota is much more reliable.

Yes, they are very fragile, especially if you use them as the "ultimate driving machine" or are expecting "Being Ahead through Technology", if you drive your kids to soccer and follow the maintenance religiously they should last until your lease is up, or you exceed the mileage limit on your lease.

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-lexus-makes-th...

BMW should just rebrand to the Ultimate Leasing Machine, as they are very cost effective due to for some reason people wanting used BMW's out of warranty.

This idea that going 20% over the recommended oil change interval will cause you to "pay a lot on the tail end" seems dubious. Could you quantify what you think this will cost a person? What exactly is the "tail end", anyways?

There are plenty of people who take care of their cars. Their old cars are in the CPO section of used car lots and priced accordingly.

Short of actually being able to look at a vehicle and assess its condition directly there is no free lunch. Any "signal" you can use will also be used by everyone else and the dealers will price it in.

I thought it was widely known/accepted that the US car industry has vastly reduced/unnecessary stated oil change intervals?

This is just not true. Cars are waaay more durable than your assumption.

I've never had an issue buying used (2-4 years old) cars from dealers. They've always been essentially like new. On top of that I have failed to do routine maintenance as scheduled. I usually do oil changes about every 10k because you really don't need to do it as often as they say.

That said... I've now had 3 cars that I bought around 30,000 miles and put over 100k miles on without any major maintenance. Just tires, brakes filters, and fluids. Maybe some weird one off thing, for example a little plastic gear in my steering system on my 2010 Hyundai recently broke and cost $500 to replace (@ 140,000 miles on the odo).

> Cars are waaay more durable than your assumption.

Truth. I bought a 2003 Ford Excursion in 2020. Parts are easy to find and are very compatible with F250s etc... It's all about resourcefulness. Not to mention I get to save a boat load of money in a used vehicle, I don't have to worry about damaging it too much. Scratch it a little with a tree branch, no problem, I don't care.

> Don't finance with the dealership, go to a credit union like DCU

Not always true. DCU has to make a profit, so the floor of their auto loan is going to be like 1.5-2%. A car dealer is also making money from the sale of the car, I have gotten APRs like 0.9% from the likes of Honda, which is going to beat DCU.

Basically, shop around and take the better deal.

> Negotiate, even in times like this you can negotiate

Well, some cars you can't. Tesla has a fixed price, take it or walk. It's quite refreshing.

Bad example, you aren't buying a tesla from a dealership its coming from the manufacture. And is highly contended by dealerships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes

I have never bought a used car. I have this unnatural fear of what people might have done on the seats. Also a new car warranty is great and maintenance is negligible. Also buy the full thing in cash.

> I have this unnatural fear of what people might have done on the seats.

Do you have this same fear of hotel room beds and avoid them for it?

Haha indeed. At least they do change the sheets and so on but I try and avoid Airbnbs for that reason since they aren't really monitored.

Unfortunately, most of the nicest cars to buy — modern EVs — didn't exist 2-3 years ago.

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