The origin story of our new ortholinear keyboard | Hacker News Reader

The origin story of our new ortholinear keyboard

dygma.com

49 pointssnicker771 comments

I have a renewed interest in fully-split keyboards because of the idea of using a VR headset instead of monitors for my day job - I currently just use a goldtouch partially-split/tilt keyboard which is inexpensive and works incredibly well at a desk. This opens up the possibility of moving away from a chair/desk combo to all sorts of varied positions - standing, sitting cross-legged on a cushion, various floor stretch positions as in [0], lying down, lounging on the couch, etc. I bought a quest 2 off craigslist for cheap to test this. I'm imagining that a split keyboard with some kind of integrated pointing device (tiny joystick? or just get very good at keyboard-only navigation) that mounts to your wrists or something would be ideal. Anyone have experience with trying different setups of this type? A quick youtube search brings up a custom-built leg-attached keyboard [1] but nothing commercial yet.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPZa8yMLfWw

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOupyi-lQZM

You may also want to look at “chord” keyboards. Main reason is that they are designed to be held in the hand without visual cues

As compared to the Moonlander, which is what I use as my daily driver this is an improvement in some ways: wireless connectivity, possibly tenting (assuming the base plate is rigid enough), but not as good in others: the thumb cluster seems strangely wide, and in the videos it seems like it operates as a combination thumb cluster / 5th row which is a nice segue to -- it's missing the fifth row. That means it's going to require layers to do most coding. Not great for me. It also seems very large, due to the way the wrist rest works. In the Moonlander that part is removable, but it seems to be part of the tenting system here. Maybe you can still remove it.

Anyway, I like to try out these kinds of keyboards, but I might give this one a pass due to it not having the full complement of keys I need in one layer.

What's the missing fifth tow you are referring to? The f keys

Nah, F keys would be a 6th row. It shows up most acutely on the right hand, where in keyboards in this dimension you would expect to see keys underneath the series "nm,./" which might (in my configuration) look like arrow up, down, [ and ]. This is also where you would expect {} to live. Not having an easy place to put these likely means you will have to put them in a layer. Swapping to layers to do [{}] as well as moving the insertion point in text up/down is a non-starter for me.

I agree with this, I keep eyeing this keyboard (long-term ergodox user) and wanting to like it.

Provisionally, I would say that adding three more keys on each side, under ./- on the right one, would make this a keyboard I would try and use.

I fear even then that the ergonomics aren't really there, the one downside of the ergodox (which is why the Moonlander thumb cluster looks as it does) is that small buttons are hard to hit with the thumb, which is articulated sideways to a keyboard. Easy to sweep but difficult to select between two small targets, I'd expect to tap two keys often without a lot of practice.

I think the Advantage2 is still more ergonomic for most users since the keys are shaped in two curved wells which help keep all rows comfortably in reach without forearm or wrist movement. I have long fingers but someone with shorter fingers should still benefit in relative terms. My understanding is that the two curved circuit boards are expensive to produce, which may justify some of the $370 (wtf) cost. I bought mine used from Amazon Warehouse (used, good return policy) for $220 when I started experiencing RSI and have never looked back.

And the Advantage 360 is coming soon!

For anyone having RSI issues and considering upgrading to a split/ergo/ortho keyboard, I'd encourage you to look into the Advantage360[1], Glove80[2], and ZSA Moonlander[3] in addition to this one.

- Advantage360 - Pros: Concave key well, wireless, split, proven "real" company, proven ergonomics Cons: not low profile, not available until late 2022, not hotswap

- Glove80 - Pros: Concave key well, wireless, split, low profile switches and caps, ergonomics look excellent Cons: Kickstarter, not available until late 2022, not hotswap, low profile switches & POM caps harder to replace

- Moonlander - Pros: Available now from reputable company, hot swappable switches and caps, split Cons: No concave key well, thumb cluster difficult to reach, ergonomics don't seem as "comfortable". This one seems to be the most direct competitor to the one in OP, though the dygma's thumb cluster seems much closer (good for reachability but might get in the way?).

After eyeing mech keyboards for ~1yr (analysis paralysis...) I decided to back the Glove80 and hope they ship in a reasonable timeframe.

[1] https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/advantage360/ [2] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/moergo/glove80-the-incr... [3] https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/

As an ergo keyboard idiot, what are the advantages of the concave key well? I've seen more people using it recently, but have no idea what the advantage of that is.

Concave key wells make the keys easier to reach and decreases the amount of finger/wrist travel. Key wells combined with the ability to adjust angle/tilt using tenting legs keeps your fingers and wrists in a more neutral position while typing. This helps reduce the amount of repetitive stress on your muscles/nerves/tendons/joints

I don't know how keyboards and switches became an obsession for me. I was a happy with my CODE keyboard + Cherry MX Whites until about 2 years when I decided to try Ergodox Ez. I feel forced to use it because I've spent $$$ extra money on switches and keycaps on top of the already expensive keyboard. I didn't want to bother with Moonlander because of the negative experience of EZ version.

I'm still waiting for Keyboardio Model 100 to arrive. After I had backed the kickstarter, Kinesis announced the Advantage360... I was really pissed because that's the one I "feel" I really want. I decided to skip 360 until end of the year where the custom switch option becomes available. I really hope Model 100 does it so I can finally stop spending money!!! (I doubt it)

Ps. This keyboard is now on the list too, but not sure about the thumb cluster.

I have the model 1 and I really like it, the palm strike to trigger the other layers is really easy to use.

Another user of the model 1; I think the palm button is one of the best things about it. Makes using layers extremely low effort.

I've been considering getting an ez? What don't you like about it?

I don't recommend the EZ due to:

- Thumb cluster, 4 of the 6 buttons (smaller ones) are hardly reachable organically. - Miss typing and frustrating first few months because of key layouts - You'll try 100s of layout changes in the config software, only to forget a lot of things and constantly going back to recall where what went! - The tilt kit. After a lot of tries, it now lays flat without any lifts. I tried a lot of setups and nothing really helped the comfort - Each keyboard piece constantly moving, it's really hard to build muscle memory when positions are mostly different - Build quality is plasticy and doesn't feel confident under the hands - Cables and connection

How is this better than the Kinesis Advantage2 which has been the gold standard in ergo keyboards for a very long time?

https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/

Differences:

    - it's a split keyboard where you can move the splits separately
    - it uses standard keycaps so you can customize the keycaps
    - Kinesis Advantage2 is a bit unwieldy for gaming.
    - Firmware is open source, I believe

The Advantage2 might still be the best bet for ergo typing

Those thumb cluster keys look pretty nonstandard

1. Its a split keyboard 2. Its a bluetooth keyboard 3. It is much much smaller 4. It is has tenting features 5. It has an aluminum body not plastic 6. It does not use the hand scoops and does support aftermarket keys 7. It looks nice, no bulky black slabs of 90s computer plastic

Did you read the article?

I bought the KA2, a Logitech ERGO K860, and the ZSA Moonlander. I returned the KA2, use the K860 daily, and am keeping the moonlander for a VR side project.

KA2 was a pain. I don't understand how people can use a keyboard that's got a 3" lip. Maybe it is supposed to be used from a keyboard tray, but definitely not on top of a lap or a desk.

I adjust my desk and chair so the level is just right for good posture. The 1.5" of keyboard height is necessary for the curved key wells, which make this keyboard more comfortable than any other I've tried.

It isn't except it's premade one. Given the part they listed on the website, it's even pretty expensive for what it is..

I'd think this is more comparable to something in their Freestyle line, since it's split and with optional tenting.

It’s more similar to Ergodox, but thumb cluster positioning is different (IMO less ergonomic)

I don't understand the function of LEDs on keyboards. Is it purely aesthetic ? How much cost does the LED add to an already expensive split keyboard? Think of the engineering and coding that could be saved without the LEDs.

The sales copy touts: "The LEDs can serve as visual support for your changes. Use different lighting for different layers, or use them to improve your touch-typing."

Do people really use it for that?

I suppose there is a difference between why people buy something (shiny feature) and how they actually use it. If the manufacturer is competing with other keyboards with the LED feature, I suppose they don't want to risk losing a sale.

I just wish I could type comfortably without expensive hardware.

</rant>

When I had "press button to switch layer permanently", the LEDs indeed made a huge difference. I didn't need to look at the keyboard directly, my peripheral vision would notice that it stopped being blueish and started being redish, which meant I was on Layer 2.

But then layer I switched to "layer 2 is only active when you're actually holding the layer 2 key" mode and now the leds are not as important anymore. Still, they make my keyboard look cool :)

Also, on my configuration Layer 2 keys each have different colors based on what they do (macros are pink, media buttons are blue, arrows are green, etc.). I have now mostly memorized everything, but in the beginning it was good to have them to help me remember.

Anyway, I like LEDs. But I would happily buy a LED-less keyboard if it meant saving $100.

In addition to the sibling comment, some of my keycaps are blank. The LEDs let me group these by category: arrow keys, modifier keys, etc. When you’re playing around with the layout, figuring out what is best for you, this can be pretty useful.

The backlight on my macbook is one of the top features, and I would not ever want a laptop without it, so I don't really see why it is so bad to want backlit for the desktop either.

I'd imagine the colors would be nice for indicating layers, especially the ten keys and arrow keys, when they are active, but I don't know if that is a feature out of the box, or something you have to hack yourself.

I've always heard this about MacBooks but I've never understood it. One of the first things I do when I start using a new MacBook is turn off the backlight. I can touch type, after all; my fingers know where everything is.

For me, backlit keys on a laptop is nice because I'll use a laptop in a dark environment and they layout isn't the same as my desktop keyboard so my touch typing isn't always 100%.

When I'm at my desktop, the room is always brightly lit.

My rant was directed at desktop keyboards that have customizable LEDs. They come with custom software that let you specify the colors on each individual key. And yes, the colors can change based on your current layer.

I was lamenting the cost associated with engineering the LEDs into the keyboard's circuit, and the cost of writing the custom software UI and embedded software on the keyboard to control the LEDs.

I read a bit more about the company Dygma. It appears they started as a gaming keyboard company, and are now entering the ergonomics market. It makes more sense now why they included the LEDs. They have already written the software UI and have the engineering experience.

My personal keyboard is a Kinesis Freestyle Pro. It's a huge improvement from my Microsoft Surface Ergonomic Keyboard, but it doesn't completely cure my RSI. The only total cure I've found for that is to not type for a living :( . I've tried a lot ... although I haven't tried diet adjustment yet.

The market has spoken, and unfortunately, a lot of people simply won’t buy new computer hardware if it doesn’t have LGBTQ+ lights.

> LGBTQ+ lights

WTF?

The rainbow LED lights so common in basically everything from keyboards to RAM modules to computer fans for the past near-decade now.

I understood your reference to the rainbow lights. I just thought it was odd/hostile to describe them in the manner which you did. Perhaps you were attempting humor and it missed.

I suspect the ubiquitous rainbow LEDs are just there to be pretty and are unrelated to LBGTQ+ . I suspect the human eye naturally likes rainbows. I know I find them visually appealing.

But I agree, RAM chips don't need to glow.

its a meme

Thanks for the explanation. I'm not much into meme culture so the reference went over my head.

I guess his comment was innocent. It's strange how a I interpreted it as a slight against the LGBTQ+ community.

Looks neat!

So, we made a huge list, cracked the whip, and ensured our engineers checked every box.

Eww.

This. Given that a lot of your customers are gonna be engineers, probably better not to make jokes about cracking the whip :)

Looks like an interesting product overall though!

That is some utterly tone deaf copy writing.

They're clearly just trying to insert a bit of humour into their text...

yeah, that's true. It just feels a bit in bad taste. But everyone has a right to their own POV on it!

The way I see it is that a real sweatshop would never write they're cracking the whip. They'll use more neutral positive wording. So for me it's a signal that they actually treat their employees well.

I cant tell which keyboard they are actually selling. Most of the pictures show a sleek split keyboard with buttons that look programmable -- especially around the thumbs, but on the buy button and store -- its a square, generic looking split keyboard. Am I missing something?

edit: I suppose this is just mostly marketing. The new one looks pretty interesting.

From another one of their posts: "We are launching a crowdfunding campaign in spring, and we will start production right afterward. Our plan is to begin shipping in late summer or early fall."

If you click through to the previous article, it says they'll be launching a kickstarter campaign in spring.

Honestly anytime I see a post about a "special" keyboard I hope to find something nice for me and I am punctually disappointed by finding damn small/few keys keyboard.

I'm an Emacs-er and I see nothing quicker than a damn key - a bind. all modern keyboards do try to sell less at a higher price stating that's small is better (for the OEM I imaging)... Actually I'm on a classic Unicomp PC122 not much loving it's cheap plastic and switches nor the fact that in the USB version many keys are just duplicates, but at least I have a bit of unique single keys.

Sorry for the rant, I'm just exploded a bit...

Does anyone have a recommendation for a simplistic split keyboard? I've been curious about them as a better orientation for my shoulders, but I really have no need for all these glowing color leds and whatnot that gamers seem to like.

The ZSA moonlander looks maybe the closest, but I'd really love to be able to disable the leds (or just not have them at all).

Edit: Well that was fast, I'll check out the ergodox-ez for sure -- thanks!

I would like to second this and add some discussion. I follow /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ and the "regular" mechanical keeb subreddits... The amount of jargon used is dizzying. I have no interest in a collection of keyboards, but would like to try to build one for myself... I have been hesitant because keyboard culture goes from like 0 to hypersonic in a day.

That is, "Buy a mechanical on Amazon to try some switches... " to "Do you want a spilt with PCB or handwired? linear, clicky, or tactile switches?, tenting with a thumb cluster? LEDS?, QMK or KMK or some other firmware? GMK caps or?, USB-C or wireless?, How many layers can you remember?" and on and on!

It seems like the JavaScript ecosystem but even more complex/subtle with no clear answers because its subjective from the start. I realize little problems with one keyboard lead to buying another and so on. How do you buy a kit to build yourself without having to invest the hours of learning the culture?

You do not need to really know most of that stuff - the most important things are just the actuation force of the switches and the type (linear, clicky, tactile).

I would just recommend going to a physical store that has any brand(s) of mechanical keyboards and try them out - then you will know if you want one with higher actuation force ("heavier" switches - harder to push) etc etc. Instead of a switch tester I would probably just recommend starting with getting a deal on a decent cheap keyboard that is close to what you want and see how you like it after testing.

Pretty much all the options are covered here:

https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards

Lily58 is a popular minimalist split keyboard

I don't have the Moonlander, but on their Ergodox EZ the LEDs can easily be disabled.

It doesn’t get mentioned much but the kinesis “freestyle pro” was the one that finally fit my needs and it’s been a joy to use. Definitely worth consideration!

If you go custom ones, all kind of of combination is there but premade is not so much, plain ergodox ez would be the closed of what you want.

You can turn off the led btw. I assembled some out of curiosity but usually don't be bothered to turn it up on my own.

Moonlander LEDs can be enabled or disabled as you please.

I have LEDs disabled by default, but then enable LEDs for certain key buttons on different layers to make them easier to find.

I love my Moonlander, but don’t have much other split ones to compare with.

I'm currently typing on a moonlander as well. My one complaint is I have to shift my hand to reach all the buttons on the thumbclusters - particularly the bottom key and the big red one. So I try to map those keys to symbols I seldom need.

ErgoDox is a popular one, but I'll mention a couple others.

I've been using an Ultimate Hacking Keyboard (UHK) for a few years now. It's fine, I can't comment on software capability, I just got it for the form factor. [1]

There's also options from Keyboardio. Model 100 is looking good, I preordered over the ErgoDox because the thumb buttons and stand make more sense to me. [2]

[1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

[2] https://shop.keyboard.io/

Just a split or an ortholinear split? If you're just looking for a split keyboard there's options like the Kinesis Freestyle 2, the Matias Ergo Pro, the Mistel Barocco and other random little brands. If you want Ortholinear, thumb clusters, etc. then you pretty much are left with the Moonlander, Ergodox Ez, the upcoming Kinesis Advantage360 and building your own.

Also if you don't care about fully split keyboards then you get options like the Kinesis Advantage 2, MS ergo boards etc.

I returned a Barocco, the build quality was awful. If you want the ability to join the halves I would just get a UHK (mentioned elsewhere)

ZSA Moonlander is great, but don't go crazy on reprogramming all of the keys like I did because it'll be too hard to get real work done. My current plan is to use the Moonlander only for VR where I can't see the keys and will have to relearn how to type anyway.

Here's one I designed as my first electronics project: https://github.com/tadfisher/nyx-kb

Seems to meet your criteria, but obviously requires some assembly.

I use a Moonlander. You can program the LEDs to not turn on. I have several keys which I don't use, and which just have "black" as an LED color.

I love the Moonlander.

This looks interesting. But will that design for tenting really work? It looks like it would buckle as soon as you lay your hand on them.

I assume it's similar to the tenting kit for their previous keyboard, which seems fine, there is a video on the bottom of this page: https://dygma.com/products/tenting-kit

Seems a bit expensive though, so I wonder if they're going to make it an add-on kit for this new ortho keyboard as well, or if they're designing this one to have the tenting "built-in".

The upcoming Keyboardio Model 100 is also a contender in this niche. It does have sculpted keycaps.

I used to have the Microsoft Ergonomic Natural Elite. Is there something modern, maybe programmable, that is like it. I particularly liked that it tilted up at the wrists to give a more natural wrist position.

It is not programmable, but the logitech k860 is nearly a drop-in replacement. I say 'nearly' because it's using scissor switches instead of membrane. The form factor is otherwise the same including the optional footrests being in the correct spot.

Thanks. That looks good. I wish it had a wired option too.

> It also doesn’t have dedicated F-keys or arrow keys. Why? You might say. Well, reducing finger stretching and hand movement is key to keyboard ergonomics. So, it doesn’t make much sense to have those keys if we want to encourage people to use layers and place them closer to the home row.

I have a deep hatred for companies that try to rationalize removing functionality because think they know what's best for me. Using arrow and FN-keys is way better than having to change to a layer or typing key chords

Dear Dygma people.

Please make your keyboard work under the BIOS and Grub.

Thanks, a happy-but-not-fully-happy customer.

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