Guardian: real sanctions against Russia impossible, thats economic suicide
theguardian.com
theguardian.com
He said EU countries owned a combined €300bn of Russian assets that would be vulnerable to confiscation if a full-blooded financial war broke out. The UK owns billions more via firms such as BP, which has a near-20% stake in the Russian oil company Rosneft.
“Sanctions are one of the few options that European countries have in a conflict situation like this. If you disconnect North Korea or Iran from the international financial system, you do not expose yourself to that much damage.”
Speaking on BBC News, he added: “But while I don’t say it is impossible to envisage Russia being barred from the Swift system, it is a nuclear option that means you exterminate yourself along with your enemy.”"
NATO has always publicly held that it would not come to Ukraine's defense.
Russia has always publicly held that it would invade Ukraine to prevent it joining NATO.
Critics have always pointed out Europe's increasing dependence on Russian gas. Hell, even Trump put sanctions on Russian gas firms integrating with Europe, and was loudly condemned by Germany and the EU. I guess a broken clock is still right twice a day, and interesting to read some of the articles in retrospect[1]
Also seems that Biden has waved Trumps opposition to that pipeline, prior to that war, which is kind of confusing.
The issue of Nato memberships for Ukraine was not on the agenda in recent times, as far as I know.
This war could not have happened if Ukraine were part of NATO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations
Some highlights:
>On 12 June 2020, Ukraine joined NATO's enhanced opportunity partner interoperability program
>On 14 September 2020, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky approved Ukraine's new National Security Strategy, "which provides for the development of the distinctive partnership with NATO with the aim of membership in NATO."
>On April 10, 2021, the Minister of Defense of Ukraine Andrii Taran stated that the top priority of the Ukrainian political leadership is to obtain the Action Plan for Membership (MAP) in the North Atlantic Alliance in 2021.
>At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP)
>On 28 June 2021, Ukraine and NATO forces launched joint naval drills in the Black Sea codenamed Sea Breeze 2021. Russia had condemned the drills, with the Russian Defence Ministry saying it would closely monitor them
>On January 11, 2022, it became known that a group of [US] Republican congressmen propose a bill declaring Ukraine a NATO-plus country and initiating a review of the advisability of declaring Russia a state sponsor of terrorism. The authors of the bill argue that recognizing Ukraine as a "NATO+ country" will make it possible to quickly make decisions on the provision and sale of American defense goods and services to Ukraine.
>On January 12, 2022, a meeting of the Russia-NATO Council was held in Brussels, where representatives of Russia and 30 member states of the Alliance discussed the requirements of the Russian side to NATO. Jens Stoltenberg [NATO] again stated that the decision on Ukraine's readiness to join NATO can only be made by Ukraine and 30 allies in the Alliance
>On January 13, 2022, Russia's permanent representative to the OSCE, Alexander Lukashevich, stated that the Russian Federation would be forced to take measures to "eliminate unacceptable threats to national security" if it did not hear a constructive response to its security proposals within a reasonable time
>On January 13, 2022, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said at his annual foreign policy press conference that Moscow "has run out of patience" waiting for the West's response to the Kremlin's demands for "security guarantees", and therefore Russia is waiting for a written response within a week. Lavrov said the Kremlin would not wait "indefinitely" for a Western response to Moscow's demands that NATO not expand eastward and deploy troops in Ukraine and other countries of the former Soviet Union.
>On January 19, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov made a proposal to the United States to assume legal obligations not to vote for NATO membership of countries whose membership is opposed by the Russian Federation, reducing NATO's non-enlargement requirements. The Kremlin is ready to exchange such an "offer" for the conditions that were put forward earlier - the so-called guarantees of the non-expansion of the Alliance to the east.
>On 22 February 2022 Russia recognized the rebel republics of Donbas, sending its army in the region; finally, on 24 February 2022 Russia launches a large-scale invasion of Ukraine.
Is there a part of the article that you specifically found to be incorrect? It seems clear and indisputable that Ukraine and NATO drawing closer since 2014. They started conducting joint exercises, arms shipments and donations, and Ukraine updated it's governance to clearly declare intentions to join NATO.
Here is another source for reference, unless you think they are shills too.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/06/15/the-2021-brussels-nat...
It makes all sense for Ukraine to join NATO just like the Baltic countries did. There would be no war if Ukraine was in NATO.
But it is not relevant now. You don't start a war to convince another country to not join NATO. The purpose of war is to conquer another country.
We agree, it would be good for Ukraine if it was in NATO, but they aren't. War wouldn't have happened if they were, but they aren't.
>You don't start a war to convince another country to not join NATO.
Are you saying it shouldn't be done, or that it can't be done? Because it looks like it is happening right now, and we will see if Ukraine promises to stay neutral.
>The purpose of war is to conquer another country.
War has lots of purposes. You can conquer a country, you can destabilize a country, you can make them submit to terms.
I suspect the government will almost certainly submit in the short term. In the long term, Russia will be watching them closely for treaty violations, and invade again if they break the terms.
Either way, they are stuck in a very tough spot. Either give up on NATO membership, or continue a cycle of reinvasion.
There will be terrible loss of human lives and it will all be Putin's fault.
Other measures that could be taken:
* Land blockade of Kaliningrad province
* Funding and arms to Moldova to pressure Russian troops in the east of that country to get out.
* Recognize Southern Kurile Islands as Japanese territory
* Funding to Belarussian opposition groups.
There is only one real immediate solution – which is providing military help to Ukraine.
That leaves only one immediate solution - Which is Ukraine and Russia come to the table, and Ukraine promises to never join NATO.
>In his night speech, Zelenskyy also hinted that he was ready to drop Ukraine’s push for NATO membership and maintain neutral status.[1]
>Russia previously said it was open to negotiating with Ukraine, though the potential settlement Russian President Vladimir Putin outlined came with a number of ultimatums attached.[2]
>Putin articulated his ultimatums for Kyiv:[3] - Recognize Crimea as Russian - Rejection of NATO accession - No weapons supplies from the West - LNR and DNR gain territory that the regions had pre 2014
https://www.firstpost.com/world/ukraine-to-surrender-ready-t...
https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010654/ukraine-and-...
I get that it isn't very emotionally satisfying to give in, but concessions would save countless lives and his country from an unwinnable war.
It can be averted or the world can simply sit and watch it unfold.
It means to live in peace and stability, free of foreign control. I think that Ukraine does not have the military strength to achieve this through conflict with Russia, therefore it is militarily unwinnable.
>Russia can conquer a Ukrainian army but people simply won't accept a Russian government that easily.
I completely agree! I don't think Russia wants to govern all of Ukraine. They want to destroy it's military, make it promise to stay away from NATO, and grant independence to Crimea and the Russian puppet states in the east.
Russia winning this war will not mean peace and stability, free of foreign control to Ukrainians.
I think you are putting words in my mouth. I never said it would be good for Ukrainians if Russia won, or that Russia even can win. I just said there isn't a realistic outcome where Ukraine wins via military might.
Agreed.
>Russia is going to win and Ukraine will lose
Agreed.
>Stopping the war now by negotiations or promises is not going to change the outcome.
A negotiated settlement won't change some outcomes and will change others.
A peace agreement wont change the fact that Russia gets what it wants:
No NATO in Ukraine, Russia gets Crimea, and Independence for the separatists in eastern Ukraine.
A Peace agreement would prevent the loss of countless civilian and military lives, and further destruction across Ukraine.
There is no rational reason for Ukraine to agree to peace agreement now.
Now the scale of the conflicts got larger and Russia attacked a country with >40M inhabitants.
Russia will not stop with wars until it looses its means to do so.
Russia has a big pile of money they earn by exporting oil and gas to Europe. 50% of their trade volume is directed to Europe. I would bet Russia needs that money to sustain its military spendings. Maybe not in one single year but over a longer period of time, let’s say 10 years. With other words: Europe paid for the war with Ukraine.
There may be other countries as well that do not care about human rights but export a lot of goods to Europe or industrial countries in general.
Imho the right thing to do would be to implement an automatism that penalties undesired behaviour of trade partners. Not specifically for Russia but for all countries that do not behave well.
One easy means to achieve this would be a taxation system based on the compliance with regard to a well defined set of human rights standards.
Example:
- suppression of the opposition: 10% tax rate on imports from that country.
- no free press: another 10% tax rate
- full scale war with neighbouring state: 50% tax rate for the next 20 years.
As the tax rate is selectively applied, source countries that behave well have an economic benefit compared to countries that don’t behave well.
Applied to Russia and the Eu this would have the following consequences:
1. the cost base of exports from Russia to the eu would increase by the given tax rate if they decide ship to the eu.
2. Russia could ship somewhere else. but as their total addressable market shrinks they will earn less even if they ship to china or any other sufficiently large market without such a tax. Thus they have less money to spend for militaria anyway.
3. Energy would be more expensive for Europeans. This will speed up the migration to other sources of energy and reduce the consumption. It will also cause a recession, but so what. It’s only money lost.
4. Other producing countries may invest as well in energy infrastructure as the increased cost base makes investments more lucrative
Even if the economic consequences in the short term are dire, in the longer term the market will regulate that very well.
Also: going to a bloody war with Russia will for sure be worse that a 2..5year recession. For any industrialised country it would be much worse to loose let’s say 100k productive inhabitants compared with loosing some billions of the local currency.