So it's all trust based?
We have to trust that all the governments of the world, who pinky promised to follow the rules, aren't secretly cheating internally and reporting false numbers to everyone else?
We have to trust that all the governments of the world, who pinky promised to follow the rules, aren't secretly cheating internally and reporting false numbers to everyone else?
I really hope crypto maximalists have made it this deep into the thread.
This is also why cryptocurrencies can never be made efficient, and will be a blight for as long as they exist. They are the logical extreme of the inefficiencies imposed by a low-trust society[0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_socie...
Please cite your sources.
edit for people finding this later: Visa and MasterCard do on the order of one billion transactions per day combined. As far as I can tell, Ethereum (proof of work as of today) does about a million per day and Avalance (one of the top 3 proof of stake networks according to Wikipedia) does about a million per day. That's literally one thousand times fewer transactions than the top two card networks. Three orders of magnitude.
If we would like to pick nits, we could say that the Visa transactions are not comparable to the Solana transactions because Solana transactions let users run complex programs that Visa does not, or that Solana transactions are not comparable to Visa transactions because nobody accepts SPL USDC and everyone pays out the nose to accept Visa, or that 2700 is a lot less than 6500, or that the 6500 number is misleading because the load should have peaks, and do we really know how much peak load Solana can handle, or that only about 1/3 of the Solana transactions are actual useful stuff for users and the rest are consensus messages. But my point is that these things are only "too slow compared to Visa" by a reasonably small factor now, like 6500 vs 900. Thanks.
0: https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/global/about-visa/documents/ab...
But it's been proven to be technically feasible to replace OldFi with blockchain, at least in terms of TPS.
2. You’re citing avalanche numbers that are not at peak traffic
3. Avalanche is not far from being the fastest crypto
i think this low-trust is actually a root cause of many problems in society.
Since cryptocurrency was already mentioned recent examples of that can be seen in Ukraine. The traditional financial system there has been disrupted; you can’t get cash out of an ATM. If you have cryptocurrency you can still transact. I think I saw something earlier where a journalist was able to get out of the country by using crypto to buy a used car.
Sometimes inefficiencies are still worth it, especially when dealing with worst case scenarios. Just-in-time manufacturing and global supply chains are very efficient, but when they are disrupted the cost is enormous. Winterizing the energy grid in Texas is expensive and inefficient/expensive, but if they don’t you are accepting that people will freeze in a severe winter storm.
>It seems to me like all societies are trending towards low trust.
is quite a starting point to make the rest of your points.
Your example of Ukraine is insightful and valid, but I imagine crypto fans and opponents alike would rather we not descend globally into a state of permanent war, where crypto would presumably be the only tool available to transact.
I think he's being a realist.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/590117-tru...
Not a native English speaker, so I may miss some nuances, but can you explain how you do not need trust that you find tomorrow someone fool enough to give you something valuable against your token? Where else does the "store of value" come than trust that there are greater fools tomorrow?
Only if you can't do that do you start to trust and build off it.
This scientific process of embedded mutual distrust is one of the most successful, generative, and important institutions humanity has ever created.
But most scientists trust the peer review process and base their work on their own ideas and the ideas/results they read in journals.
In short, scientists trust other scientists.
But it is critically important that we can periodically check in and verify that our trust is still well placed, and not have systems that can allow someone to massively profit from violating people's trust.
The stronger those foundations and verifications of trust are, the better off we all are as a society.
I never suggested that every scientist independently and recursively verify every piece of previous work. Work and verification of work builds on each other. And every once in a while, we have a major milestone that verifies that much of the work that went into accomplishing the milestone (such as the moon landing) is generally correct.
That's how we teach science to people. It's not just "here's the math and the science we know and it's totally right, just trust us bro". We say "here's the math and science we think is right, now let's do experiments along the way to periodically verify that the things we're teaching you actually generate real predictions that match reality".
Science is all about being suspicious and verifying. Many (if not all) of the greatest scientific discoveries came from people questioning the established "truth".
Right- that's called trust. I can't independently launch my own lunar program, so I trust those that did... did.
We really don't. There's so much stupid stuff that gets published on the daily.
And then, you publish a paper refuting a lot of the nonsense, and people start citing your paper as evidence of the opposite of what you wrote, just because you had a keyword in your abstract and they didn't read it, just needed a citation. It's mind boggling that we aren't going backwards in science.
Did you (or your lab members) publish contradictory results, or should I just trust this assessment?
That is the “optimistic” Popperian take on science—aka good science. The reality is a different matter ;-)
Money means nothing without trust.
I do not think we can have civilisation without trust
Plenty of other moneys come into existence emergently, most obviously gold and silver without any authority mandating their use. Money is an emergent property of human society, not a gift handed down by our divinely established kings.
The idea that money can only exist by government decree is patently absurd.
It’s true that lots of money exists outside of government decree but equating any commodity to be money redefines the term.
Money is whatever thing human society decides to collectively value in order to more easily trade goods and services across time and space.
Money has been and continues to be many things, from government decreed currencies, to gold and silver, to cigarettes in prisons, to sacks of salt paid to Roman soldiers (etymology of 'salary'), to the colloquial "I owe you one".
Money is just debt and favors and can take an infinite number of forms depending on the environment and needs of the people using it to more efficiently collaborate.
If I give Paul a loaf of bread and in exchange he writes "Paul owes you one" on a piece of paper, that's money. I can trade that with someone else for some good or service and we'll have to haggle over how much "one" favor from Paul is actually worth.
The dollar is just "the US government owes you one". How much is "one" worth? That's for the market to decide, and largely depends on how much real world goods and services there actually are along with how many "ones" the US government has issued. Although, before 1971, it was explicitly defined as "for every 35 'ones' you have, the US government owes you 1 oz of gold". Now, the value of "one" floats in the market and is constantly devalued by design.
In recent days, the world's markets have decided that "the Russian government owes you one" isn't worth nearly as much as it did last week.
Commodity money like gold or bitcoin don't rely on trust in a government's ability to pay it's debt, but rather trust that a sufficient number of people will always desire the commodity for whatever reason. That's still debt, but more a more indirect, coercion free form of debt.
For gold, that reason is because it has a long history of established scarcity and has some utility as jewelry to signal wealth to others.
For bitcoin, that reason is because it has theoretic perfect scarcity, can be instantly transferred to anyone on the planet with a phone, can be stored in your brain by memorizing the dozen words of your seed phrase, and many other fascinating programmable properties that have yet to be fully explored.
Money is a) fungible, 2 units of the same money are worth the same thing and b) general applicability. You can use money as a medium of exchange most places.
Brent crude futures contracts are fungible at the monthly contract value. I can literally swap 2 same month contracts with no change in count. I can’t buy coffee with them though (or even Brent crude oil without a lot of toil).
MasterCard debt is generally applicable. It’s spendable all over the world, but I can’t trade it for Amex debt without a conversion.
That makes money status contextual but not undefinable. Rubles are not usable where I live. That means they aren’t money here, I have to fx them, but they are money somewhere else, even places where the government says they are not, like Brighton Beach.
Long story short, you must have external validation of value for something to be money.
It's a bad term and I fight it everywhere I can.
> The idea that money can only exist by government decree is patently absurd.
No one put forth that idea here. I'm just saying that the idea that there is a non-arbitrary currency is equally absurd.
Shell money predates coinage and works a lot more like fiat money.
Same goes for countries. If a countries fed just creates new money out of no where and acts as if it’s always existed they risk everything. I.e. losing access to the global banking network, insane currency fluctuations, use your imagination.
The premise is the same though. Our entire financial system as it stands today is based off of trust with auditing oversight and harsh penalties for breaking that trust.