Invasion could drive 5M Ukrainians to flee abroad – U.N
reuters.com
reuters.com
Edit: typo.
A romanian article from 1 hour ago says that as you said, with biometric passport you don't need a visa, but it also says that with a non-biometric passport you will receive a 3 month tourist visa on the spot.
It also says that you can enter without any kind of passport at all, according to international refugee rules. But you might be handled different, liked being forced to go to a refugee camp (don't know).
https://romania.europalibera.org/a/acte-intrare-romania-ucra...
Thier rudeness is legendary in Romania. I assumed it's because we are a poorer country with a rough past that traumatized a generation, but I've seen equal levels of rudeness sometimes from the public servants in Austria and those earn way more than their Romanian counterparts and get much better benefits and working conditions from the state and didn't go through famine 35 years ago.
So assholes will be assholes regardless, just because they know they can't be fired, and are usually venting their personal failures and frustrations on those in weaker positions who can't fight back (foreigners, immigrants), just like how you see people being rude to employees in the service sector.
Anyway, I hope you find safety and know that you're welcome in Romania.
Wow. I guess you're really screwed if, in the process of leaving everything behind and fleeing for your life, you lose your ID.
When you accept refugees you’re also accepting the pain of side effects from accepting those refugees. Refugees from some places come with fewer side effects depending on compatibility with the host country and skills and education of the refugees.
your elaboration is accurate and fine.
I think they were just speaking very abruptly. But a different phrase would be better.
Life under Russian occupation doesn't sound like a good time. Still I don't see Ukraine winning this, plus even in peacetime you'll do better in Romania , Poland or Germany. At least from an economic point of view.
The best case scenario at this point is a ceasefire is declared, with Russian troops remaining in much of the East.
Even if the War ends today, still expect tons of refugees. Much of the economic base has already been destroyed. Given the option of fleeing West, being able to build a better, safer life... Or living under constant threat of another Russian invasion.
Which would you pick ?
What a disaster. If I was Ukrainian, I’d get the living fuck out of there now before living under those conditions.
What a fucked up world we live in…
> What a fucked up world we live in…
It's fucked up that it was attacked, it's not fucked up that there are social expectations for its citizens to rise to its defence in its time of need.
Between me and my families I think we own one house that's not worth anything because of it's location and my apartment which I'm still paying off.
So if my country got attacked I would grab my family and leave without a second thought - let the people who divided the profits and live off the benefits defend it - I would be just as well in any other country.
Now if it came to world war and it was Russia and China taking over the west I would feel differently about it - but in that case it's a nuclear armageddon so I could probably do shit.
What's the alternative? Not fight and become occupied and likely oppressed - is that a better choice? Or flee and become a war refugee? The average citizen doesn't have highly sought-after skills in other countries, they are likely to go to a refugee camp for months and years. So, some people choose to fight for their families, friends, and preserving their way of life. I think defending the in-group from an aggressive out-group is a perfectly reasonable, ingrained human response.
Sounds better than running.
I don't think many people outside Russia disagree with that (including the GP).
> it's not fucked up that there are social expectations for its citizens to rise to its defence in its time of need.
This ia a misrepresentation. It's not a social expectation, it's part of the current martial law decrees. As far as I'm aware (please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no general draft, yet. It's also not a pro-russian statement to say that limiting the travel ban to men only is inhumane - it tears families apart that may never re-unite again, leaving both halves weak to all kinds of dangers. It's also not clear what is being gained in exchange for this. There are many women part of the voluntary defense forces, just as there are many men who cannot reasonably participate in the fight.
When your country is attacked families are seperated, people die, and fucked up things happen. But if you don't defend your country you are guaranteed to lose and be overrun and be ruled by a maniac dictator. So there's your choice.
I find your position ridiculous and clearly from someone who's never experienced war or even heard about it from parents and grandparents. I have. You can forget about your equality crap and avoiding "inhumanity" and being concerned about the mental health of families.
That doesn't matter when a russian tank rolls down your street. What matters is your survival and your country's survival.
> If you’re some hypothetical cosmopolitan man who’s lived in 10 cities and has no emotional connection to anywhere, maybe. Most people don’t want to see their local area taken over by some Russian maniac.
Also, on the other end, if you're enmeshed in a culture that's rife with corruption and nepotism.
Loyalty to only a very narrow band of close relatives is usually not a recipe for a successful society.
> "Here's what's happening in Kramatorsk [a city in Donetsk]:
It's quiet for now, but we're expecting an escalation in the evening.
I was at the military registration and enlistment office. Just so you understand, our city is pro-Russian. Was. Seems that's now in the past. There's a huge line at the office, of both the young and old.
I don't know what they thought to themselves in Russia, but they've lost our country once and for all.
Such are the preliminary results of operation "Like it or not, endure, my dearest". [Putin's words to Zelensky Feb 7 in response to the latter stating he liked none of the points of the Minsk Accords]"
Source: https://www.facebook.com/e.menendes/posts/7085200851522280
That's a baseless and uncharitable take. But even if you disagree strongly that women can participate meaningfully in modern combat (pre-invasion Ukraine seemed to think there was nothing wrong with having women be part of the voluntary defense force), it is monstrous of you to assert that opposing how families get torn apart by this decree is somehow tantamount to "equality crap". If there was a male-only general draft in effect you could at least argue that the men need to stay behind for mandatory service. But as of now, they're needlessly sending women and children away as refugees while the men stay behind to do whatever. I want to see you construct an argument that clarifies how this leads to better outcomes for these families.
Sometimes social expectations are enforced.
Also, they're being invaded. It would be foolish to insist on waiting for a formal legislative process.
We cannot defend Ukraine against the most unjustifiable war ever, and they can’t defend themselves.
Nothing stopped it from moving in four months ago. Putin wasn't going to start a suicidal nuclear war over it.
MAD only works to deter against existential threats. Not being able to invade a neighbour is not an existential threat. Being invaded can be one, though.
Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons for security assurances. The lesson is that if you have nuclear weapons, you do not get attacked - North Korea. You also get to attack other countries. Russia, USA.
The goon squads are already being assembled:
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1497174648072531969?s=20...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10551327/Chechen-sp...
https://mena24tv.com/en/2022/02/25/kadyrov-mobilizes-10000-f...
Russia might have more weapons but keeping 100k troops feed in what is going to increasingly hostile areas is no simple thing.
I think Turkey could yet recover though.
Snipping out the specific sentence: "In exchange, the European Union agreed to resettle Syrian refugees from Turkey on a one-to-one basis, reduce visa restrictions for Turkish citizens, pay 6 billion euros in aid to Turkey for Syrian migrant communities, update the customs union, and re-energize stalled talks regarding Turkey’s accession to the European Union"
In 2020, Erdolf told refugees that the borders to Greece had been opened and bused thousands of people to the borders, with two refugees being executed by Greek border police [2] during the subsequentriots. In the end, the situation was settled by the EU paying half a billion euros to the Turkish dictator [3].
[1]: https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/griechenland-eu-grenzschuetze...
[2]: https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2020-03/griechenland-tue...
[3]: https://www.nzz.ch/international/die-eu-und-die-tuerkei-brau...
Moreover, they can, and use those same refugees to blackmail the EU whenever it's convenient to them.
I expect we'll see some ugly incidents in the next few years where masses of desperate migrants try to rush the EU and US borders. Will border guards fire on civilians and commit mass murder to keep them out?
Interesting you bring that up. Population in European countries isn't even at replacement levels. They actually need immigrants to keep their economies from collapsing on retirees. Making statements based on the world population as a whole seems irrelevant, China and India play a huge part in the world population increase yet they have no relation to this.
>Perhaps mass death events which we defeated in recent years are precisely what is needed for a "correction" in our global hubris.
And those mass death events, of course, should involve immigrants and not Europeans? Or, you? These conversations about population control always seem to trend in the same direction.. the same people who hate overpopulation of humans never want to start the solution with their own families.
>And those mass death events, of course, should involve immigrants and not Europeans? Or, you? These conversations about population control always seem to trend in the same direction.. the same people who hate overpopulation of humans never want to start the solution with their own families. The mass death events affect whoever they affect, I am not blaming people for the place or situation they are born in, nor do I "hate" overpopulation, and indeed you are right to point out that my own self preservation is a part of the overpopulation problem, in the end I intend to do what is best for myself, as would anyone else, I just naively have some optimism about how this may correct itself in the long term, as opposed to the worst case scenario which is total extinction.
Sadly the Middle East culture and religion is incompatible with the one in Europe.
So if this scenario should play out, we will see middle east conditions with unrest everywhere.
Better to let the migration go to compatible countries such as Turkey.
[0] while medical tech has improved for trans issues, I can’t really say western culture is kinder to that group today as compared to 1950, nor do I know how trans issues are regarded in the Middle East.
And yet, I was raised Catholic, same as the very people I was — unreasonably, in retrospect — afraid of.
And also, I now live in Berlin, capital of a country which took in roughly one million refugees very quickly not too long ago. Just as my childhood news was wildly unrepresentative yet technically correct, if the stories you refer to had been representative one would have expected the literal disintegration of the country I now live in before I moved here.
(I now work with one of those refugees. I find him very impressive! Proper fluency in three languages).
Here in Canada the largely upper middle class Middle Eastern immigrants integrate and assimilate fairly well. On the other hand, ethnic groups from East and South Europe where we received many refugees in the 80s and 90s still have a bit of a reputation for organised crime, much as the Italians got tarred 50 years ago. Because yes, a lot of those refugees got involved with it. What else is some young Russian or Serb with no job skills and limited language skills supposed to do in the Canadian job market back then?
Bring in lots of poor uneducated people who don't speak the language and no amount of cultural compatibility will defuse the problems created.
The hard stuff is the stuff you don’t even know you need to ask about because everyone thinks it’s “common sense” without realising that’s just shorthand for “stuff I was taught without realising I was taught”.
"The chances of men between the ages 15 and 29 in Sweden getting shot were ten times higher than their counterparts in Germany, a 2018 study found, according to The Economist."
"Eight in 10 shootings in Sweden were connected to organized crime, a study by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention said. That ratio was “significantly” higher compared to other countries in Europe, the Guardian reported."
"In 2018, Sweden had the highest gun deaths in Europe, surpassing Italy and eastern Europe, due to increased criminal gang activities, the Guardian said."
"Deaths involving guns tripled in that country between 2012 and 2020, Bloomberg said."
"Nearly 260 crimes in Sweden involved explosives in 2019, up 60% from a year earlier, Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention data showed."
Forbes, Guardian, Economist not your usual "right wing nationalist" sources.
Which Middle East culture and religion? Be specific. Are you talking about Israel? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Kurdistan? If you're going to condemn a whole ethnic/religion group at least pick just one, not a random grab bag of "brown people".
I'm an atheist, some of my friends are muslim, yet we don't struggle to be friends because of that.
You are probably talking about very conservative people who like to hang gay people and all of that funny stuff, but just making a blank statement that this is true for all of the middle east is very wrong.
EDIT: Was never down-voted so fast on HN, is the majority of HN really so negative towards people from the middle east?
I'm surprised myself, generally HN is pretty reasonable and fair about allowing different view points. International conflict seems to bring out the xenophobes and overly political actors. I say this as a Muslim who grew up with many close atheist friends, who has seen this pattern many times over the past few decades.
Yeah, it really does feel like it. It seems to me like a lot of europeans and americans have a pretty warped view about africa/middle east.
It is inappropriate to apply the generalization to one person, because there is much diversity among people. When you talk about a population though, it isn't propaganda to say that there are huge cultural problems with views which are fundamentally problematic if you try to import sizable portions into a modern western country.
One of the reasons you get strong right-wing reactionaries is people who are trying to be progressive turning a blind eye to the actual cultural issues instead of acknowledging and trying to mitigate and minimize them.
There are certainly lovely people from the middle east, I have had the pleasure of knowing a few who were from or had roots in that part of the world. There is a basic difference between (wrongly) saying "this is where you're from and what you look like so you must be like this" and (rightly) "taking in a million refugees from here will have these sorts of problems".
Taliban and the Saudi Arabian government are very conservative and I don't like them either, yes. But I would not take these two as a description for "People from the middle east".
I agree a bit with "people who are trying to be progressive turning a blind eye to the actual cultural issues", but I still think that the comment I responded to is wrong, and your explanation does not really change my mind.
Of course there are issues. A person who hates other sexualities, doesn't like women being independent and wants to spread their religion no matter what is a tough challenge for progressive cultures, but then I guess Europe should not accept very conservative people from other places either ;D
As an example, I don't know why a very conservative, traditionalist and religious person from Texas should be more compatible with Europe than someone from Saudi Arabia(half joking).
Add to that, that Europe != Europe. Were I gay, I would not want to live in Hungary or Poland, either.
What I'm pointing out in the parent comment is that if those are the kinds of things that constitute social progress in your part of the world, it's pretty clear that your median or typical cultural attitudes have a pretty damn big distance from that of modern western european nations.
I am of course not including actual terrorists or people who want to kill others in my comment, but I think it should be understandable what I mean.
So, yes, very conservative people from the middle eastare a tough challenge, but for me that does not justify saying that they're incompatible and should rather stay in their countries.
First-generation migrants are a tough challenge, depending on who they are. But with time and care, this will be manageable. Not all of them, but again, this should not be as big of an issue as to say that they should stay away.
Hungary has Anti-LGBT laws, same can't be said about "muslim quarters".
It's a sin in Islam, true. You were talking about muslim quarters in european cities, where as far as I know, the law from the country this quarter is in applies, and not the shariah or whatever you may think goes on there.
On the other hand you have Muslim patrols in cities like London. Maybe it will come as shock to you, but some people don't care much about the laws.
But i will suggest that living openly as a gay person in said quarters is just not possible.
Threats and harassment at a level much greater than you would find in e.g. Hungary will be the order of the day.
Those are the facts.
And it’s not white supremacists doing this, it’s muslims.
And they’re not getting more integrated, but less.
100% of Uk based Muslims think making homesexuality illegal would be ok. Are they all just extremists then?
Well, that's a lie. And what the hell are you on about, starting to compare Nazis to this.
You are saying that hating gay people is muslim culture?
I am not apologizing these acts either, merely saying that hating other religions is not a muslim-only thing.
50% doesn’t make it any better though really:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-musl...
The same regions have the lowest per-capita carbon output. Perhaps we should tie reproductive rights to carbon footprint, to increase the proportion of low-pollution individuals. I'm only being half-sarcastic.
Largely irrelevant. Every country aspires to increase their quality of life, burgeoning populations still living in the mud are just carbon time bombs. So, relevant in the negative sense of their per-capita output has nowhere to go but up, with a huge multiplier.
It helps to view "third-world" as simply arriving in third place at the finish line of modern living; on a long enough timeline, there are no more mud huts.
In the film Before the Flood, there's a part focused on India which states they have ~300M people living without electricity. A population roughly the size of the USA. In the same part, representatives from India's government make clear that India has vast coal reserves and no intention of leaving those 300M people without electricity. You're looking at an overnight arrival of the US population from the dark to using lights and refrigerators.
It's not like populations with low carbon output have all mastered some kind of low impact living. They're just poor and lagging behind the more wealthy nations, don't mistake it for a lack of intention to join the first-world.
This is reductive, and possibly wrong. Developing countries do not have to follow the paths of developed ones; they can simply skip over the less useful bits. As an example, most developing countries skipped large-scale POTS networks and went directly to wireless (GSM). The same is happening with solar and wind energy; because the sparse electric distribution networks are sparse, energy is generated at its point of use, which favors solar and wind.
Our "legacy" countries are the problem because we cannot wean ourselves off pollution without taking a hit in our lifestyles. The problem is in the here and now, not some future "time bomb", and it's not solved by tweaking at the margins by limiting population growth of those that live the greenest lifestyles. The problem with the climate change "debate" is that nobody wants to make changes - it's always the other who has to make sacrifices.
Nothing I said cast arriving at the finish line as following in the exact footsteps as the predecessors to get there.
Obviously the definition of and means of achieving "modern living" is constantly evolving.
Our most recent example would arguably be China, and CO2-free automobile-free utopia it very much is not.
It will be interesting to see what form India arriving in the first world will take. I'm hoping for solar panels on every home and skipping a coal-fueled power grid much like the cell network you mention, as it does appear to be the obvious wireless equivalent for power. I don't think that alone is sufficient though.
> This is reductive, and possibly wrong
Everything is "possibly wrong", what a pointless thing to say. What's probable?
But yes, I agree that if a tech is freely available there is opportunity for countries to build out with what's the best available then legacy tech, the same way China has 4G/5G everywhere because its all new infrastructure, they never bothered putting up a 3G tower.
Physical infrastructure like housing, roads, bridges, are where the real challenges lie. Cement production alone is a huge co2 problem.
Even if all the vehicles of the future are EVs, there's a huge amount of resources put into manufacturing, delivering, sheltering, and operating those per-capita. Despite its vast HSR network, China has still exceeded US car sales every year since 2009 [0].
[0] https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/global-car-sa...
These days, is it still realistic to hold on to a Whig view of history?
You can keep cutting the cake in smaller and pieces, for sure, but that means everyone keeps getting a smaller and smaller portion until everyone is hungry. That doesn't even factor in the fact that the cake is effectively shrinking from overfishing, droughts, and so on.
You keep expanding the human population. It'll be fine. It's probably too late to course correct anyway. Might as well do what makes you happy.
The cake isn't a fixed size. Our agricultural innovations continue to far exceed population growth. We can produce virtually infinite energy with Renewables and Nuclear Energy. The Earth is 70% water, and that too is a renewable resource; there's more than enough for the next million years.
That's not even getting started on the fact that these sorts of prediction have been wrong repeatedly. The average world citizen has a vastly greater standard of living than they did 50 or 100 years ago, despite the increase in population. So the population is going up, and the standard of living is going up even faster.
Most of our modern agricultural processes are about as sustainable as strip mining. They erode the top soil at a staggering rate, and that takes a very long time to regenerate, and that's not even considering the impact of climate change on the amount of arable land.
There is no process for turning energy and water into nutrient rich food. You can make macronutrients (especially carbohydrates) easily enough, but that alone just makes us sick.
There's a lot to be done with just the tools we have now and a lot of things that we're working on that may help.
Rezoning cities for instance making them more walk able or usable by e-bikes, etc, and encouraging people to live near where they work or work remotely at least part of the week can help. Conversion to solar, nuclear, wind, etc. I watch YT videos of third world ppl creating solar powered energy sources. I've seen articles about people developing plants that can be converted into bio polymers that capture 80% of carbon that gets turned into plastic that captures carbon and when it inevitably gets buried in a landfill, its a good thing, because that carbon was removed from the atmosphere and captured in the ground in the course of creating a disposable product.
I currently give $50 a month to cotap.org because its helping somewhat reforest the planet, which I know isn't much in the grand scheme considering how much sealed carbon we're releasing but its something, even if its just spitting in the ocean. But systemically you not having a kid isn't going to fix it any more than me. You act like someone won't just immigrate in from a less developed country to yours or someone socially conservative or traditional won't just have 5 kids, and offset whatever good you did. Honestly, raising a kid whose more environmentally conscious and equipped to handle the upcoming challenges is probably far more productive.
It will take a lot of effort, and the sooner we get on it the better. Personally, energy generation and car dependence for me are the two biggest challenges to conquer.
Historically it hasn't really mattered, as human agriculture has been small compared to the rest of the biosphere, but right now we have so much cultivated land it covers a significant chunk of the planet. At this scale, nutrient depletion absolutely does matter. Nutrients don't just appear from nothing in the ground.
Go on Google maps if you will. Pan over to somewhere in middle of the United States and look for anything that isn't a city, a desert or cultivated land. Forests do exist, but they are really not common.
It takes time sure, but we compost and recapture those nutrients every day. Every time we flush our waste down the toilet, lots of those nutrients end up being recycled and processed in a water treatment plant and dumped into rivers and used by nature. We might need to stop flushing nutrients into rivers, or figure something out, but given how much food currently gets thrown out and overstocked grocery stores stay, I know there's opportunity for adjustment. Going to a more JIT system for groceries might be better, where a grocery store doesn't need to stock 50% more produce then it plans to sell. Food waste is a huge problem. We can start composting it at least and returning it back to the soil.
Yes. I'm not sure why people come to any other conclusion.
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/please-dont-give-up-on...
Besides that, all of the arguments that are presented seem to start from the perspective that having children should be the default. The author makes no claims that the world will be a better place for them, and therefore I see no reason why anyone would want to bring more suffering into the world, and cause more harm.
For instance, Russia is expected to half their draft able males in the next 5 years and many of their educated engineers and technicians are older since they were mostly educated during USSR days, and be retiring age soon, which as reason why many think Russia is making moves now, while they still can.
Shaming people for having kids is sheer idiocy at this point. Every person having 2 or more kids isn't even making up for the 5-10 people having 0-1 kids. The eventual conclusion of your reasoning, everyone is better off swallowing a bullet for the good of humanity.