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Comment by dvt | Hacker News Reader

NATO expansion was not driven by NATO's 21st century power aspirations, but rather driven by Baltic nations that suffered tremendously under Soviet rule. No one in Eastern Europe seriously believes Russia is only aggressive and bellicose due to Putin. It has a long and sordid history of abuse dating back at least a century. So it makes sense that Poland is terrified, along with Romania, Latvia, Estonia, etc.

It's a very "US-centric" video, and the comparison to the Monroe Doctine is imo a false equivalency. Russia is not even the Soviet Union, let alone the US. Russia isn't a match militarily to NATO, and it's not even a match economically to the EU. It has nukes and oil, so it's a thug and a bully. If it was any other nation, it would be wiped off the face of the planet.

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Romania isn't terrified of Russia.

The 90s born generation like myself, mostly see Russia as neutral, from the neutral-positive way we saw them in the 90s, when we were still relying heavily on their bootleg electronics.

Romania joined NATO way back as it saw it as a way to get closer to the west and ultimately into EU. Not because of Russia but because the bad state of the local economy (and associated poverty) lead by incompetent, post revolution, ex-communist party, people. That couldn't be improved without outside investment, guidance, and trade partners.

> Romania isn't terrified of Russia. Russophobia is a relatively recent fear in the general population caused by years of media propaganda.

Absolutely not true[1]. Soviet Russian-Romanian friction dates as back as early as the 70s, and let's not even talk about WW2. Soviets raping and pillaging Transylvania is well documented.

[1] https://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/the-soviet-romanian...

Romania had friction with many states for many reasons. I'm sure there was raping and pillaging during war in Romania, by the Russian army, just like I hear about rape happening in all wars. My grandparents stories around WW2 depicted Russia in a good light, thus experience might vary.

Where we were taught to have beef with Russia, was on the large amount of gold/valuables we shipped there during WW2 for "safe keeping" and which were never returned back to us.

The 90s romanian propaganda was against the west in general, and Hungary in particular. You see, even if Hungarians were the first to bring large convoys of humanitarian help in our country after our revolution, the politicians made sure to make Hungary a boogeyman that is trying to steal Transylvania from us and support separatist movement in majority ethnic hungarian regions.

It's not a black and white kind of thing, and it seems that trade relationships also shape up the perception of those trading partners.

Don't get me wrong, people's perception of Putin and his actions are mostly negative (we have our fair share of people that cling to the extremes).

Maybe go and have a chat with your grandparents of what life was like as a vassal state of the Russians, the Ceaușescu years are something that Romania is effectively still recovering from.

They've been dead for many years now.

You tell me what life was like as a vassal state of Russia.

Opinion on life during communism is very much a mixed bag. Depends who you ask. I don't know why people keep painting Romanian communism as a black&white kind of issue.

I wrote a bit about this:

https://jacquesmattheij.com/a-western-kid-living-in-communis...

Imagine your friends informing on you to the secret police either because of ideological reasons, or simply because they want to get ahead in life and you're a convenient stepping stone.

Imagine empty stores.

Imagine family members taken in for 'questioning' never to be heard from again.

Imagine winters without fuel.

And so on...

Really, the life in the countries that were plundered to power the failing economy of the USSR was pretty harsh, especially if you were smart and not part of the party.

FWIW I love Romania, have lived in Bucharest for two years and have friends and family there. Enjoy your freedom, it was paid for in blood.

> Opinion on life during communism is very much a mixed bag. Depends who you ask. I don't know why people keep painting Romanian communism as a black&white kind of issue.

Unless you were in the Communist Party, everyone hated the Ceausescu regime and it's absolutely NOT a mixed bag. I was born in 86, my sister in 90, and both of my parents fought in the Romanian revolution in Timisoara. I still remember yelling "Jos cu Ceausescu" and my parents telling me to be quiet; I also remember having to hide in our tiny apartment, and bullets flying outside; I was around 4 or 5.

We're Christian, and my dad was interrogated by the Romanian Communist Secret Police many times (he was trafficking Bibles), and was also threatened with my murder and my (at the time pregnant) mom's murder.

Putin is an extension of that same old Communist cancer that the Russian people need to excise. I have dual citizenship, and if the Russians stepped foot on Romanian soil, I would gladly pick up arms.

And stop with the revisionist garbage, people literally died.

I think you're not taking into account certain kind of citizens. Those that are just happy to live their life, not to maximize individual freedom and liberty, but to have security and a close family relationships.

During communism they had the safety of a job, and housing. The basic premise of a living condition. Just like some might one day hope adoption of something like UBI could do.

Now we have village life slowly "going extinct". Back then you could continue to live in villages because of mandatory cooperatives, there was always work available. There was stability.

When communism fell, those citizens were left to their own devices. It gave them maximal individual freedom, but no the same state-level safety nets.

The population that just wants to live their family life regardless of politics, and those that lost their safety is reflective in voting preference, and also in the low parliamentary vote turnout (31.02% of voters).

I was born in the late 80s like you, but we're still 90s kids. My father had his own run-ins with the state security police, and everyone was happy for the fell of communism for a very brief moment of time. Maybe you were well of in the 90s but most of the population really struggled with economical change and poverty. It was less about communism-era scarcity and more about the month to month livelihood.

Instead of just stating things unilaterally in a certain light, I would ask you to allow yourself the time to listen to the ordinary people that are living worse of now than during communism.

This mixed feeling about the fall of communism is very well illustrated in Recorder's documentary (30 years of democracy). Documentary that also touches upon my original point where Romania joined NATO with the ultimate goal of joining EU due to disastrous economy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUbN6DXJwFg (english subs are also available for anyone else interested)

Respect to your parents actively fighting during the revolution.

> Respect to your parents actively fighting during the revolution.

Is incompatible with the rest of your comment.

Communism in civilised countries results in their criminalisation and collapse of the rule of law. To such an extent that even long after the communists are gone, the state of criminalisation persists. A poor undeveloped state like Pakistan or India may also not have much by the way of rule of law, but at least the rulers don’t have the sophisticated bureaucratic tools in place to enact widespread oppression of people either. Some anarchy is desirable when most of your leaders are selfish despots.

> Opinion on life during communism is very much a mixed bag

Only if you were part of the Nomenklatura or the Secret Police. The rest hated communism quite uniformly.

And you're forgetting the whole Bessarabia thing - Russia forced Romania to cede Bessarabia, them had to return it, then the Soviets did the same, and after the Soviet Union fell leftover Russians separated and blocked any discussion on the resulting country of Moldova from trying to merge back into Romania ( not saying everyone wants this, but Transistria blocked even the possibility of that).

> The 90s born generation like myself, mostly see Russia as neutral

Yeah, people who didn't live through the cold war and didn't suffer aggression or witness it being used against a nearby country are prone to being blue-eyed in that way.

I guarantee that a lot of the 90s kids are now having second thoughts and start to think more like the older population.

FWIW, as a Polish twenty-something, I rather expected Russia to mellow out as it becomes more democratic over time. As of approximately the time of the Crimean invasion, that opinion has shifted a great deal.

It should have, but the west still kept NATO. They could have simply been more diplomatic with Russia when it was at its weakest in the 90's after the fall of the Soviet Union, but the cynicism was still there

No doubt Russia wasn't treated how it should have been, post Cold War. But staying that's a justification of their behaviour is like saying that Germany was justified in their 1930s behaviour just because it was mistreated post WW 1.

Overall, I'm happy that Poland is a NATO member. At least it adds another deterrent (or failing that, a speed bump) in the way of a Russian invasion. Were NATO not to exist, and Russia to re-awaken it's conqueror instincts at some point, we'd be screwed yet again.

I don't think the Romanian population of the 80s cared about the cold war. In a time when leader worship propaganda was at its peak (thanks North Korea for inspiring Ceausescu), food scarcity, decaying state services/infrastructure, and dissent suppression in full force.

> or witness it being used against a nearby country are prone to being blue-eyed in that way.

I agree, awareness and proximity to direct effects give you a different perspective.

Based on my experience, I can tell you that those 90s kids are having second thoughts on the EU&West this time around. Might be Russian propaganda derived, but EU skepticism is on the rise in that same age group, especially for those that live in the country.

> those 90s kids are having second thoughts on the EU&West

Only the ones unable to succeed in modern times. Which is a quite incredible feat considering the astonishing wealth of opportunities the EU opening offered the Eastern Block.

How can you not succeed when you can move and work anywhere in the EU?! The only way I know is by being a child of ex-communist politicians, a child of Nomenklatura parents. The pain they feel is quite like the nostalgy Putin feels when remembering good old Soviet Union.

I take issue with the word "Russophobia". There is no reason to think that fearing Russia(n government's actions) is irrational, given its track record.

You're right, I have removed that line. Phobia is a irrational fear of something, but it sounded catchy to use that word when I wrote my comment.

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