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Comment by yakshaving_jgt | Hacker News Reader

> Are there two new countries on the map?

It depends who's map you're looking at.

> I'm purposely avoiding the discrimination against Ukrainian-speaking people

Bear in mind that it's not as simple as discriminating between those who speak Ukrainian and those who speak Russian. A significant proportion of the Ukrainian population speak Russian primarily, but otherwise have no political affinity for Russia.

> Going to go with the autonomous region concept until a future referendum of accession into Russia?

This is most likely it, though it could further escalate into an even more egregious invasion, which would trigger a military response from Ukraine, which would then give Russia the casus belli they are looking for.

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> A significant proportion of the Ukrainian population speak Russian primarily, but otherwise have no political affinity for Russia.

The best counterpoint for most westerners to understand is this: most Irish people speak English as their primary, if not only, language. Yet English-speaking Irishmen were (and still are) vehemently against being part of the UK.

thank you for including examples of people - on both sides of that conflict - who will not stop fighting their neighbors, no matter what the century. We used to say long ago, "what is so funny about peace, love and understanding?"

Not the same. My understanding is Ireland has always been culturally separate from England, and as you said, wanted to be politically separate for many centuries. Ukraine is a very young independent state, with its borders changing significantly throughout the last 100 years, but for the most part it was happy to be part of Russia/USSR until the USSR collapse.

I'd even say Ukraine is probably more like California, (or Texas) in relation to US, rather than Ireland in relation to GB. And just like I wouldn't mind if California separated from US, I don't mind Ukraine being separate from Russia, but the cultural ties are probably similar to the ties between CA and the rest of US.

Ukraine may be a young state, but the ethnic identity is considerably older. And yes, of course there are significant cultural ties due to shared origin - so what? Serbs and Croats are even closer, which did not preclude them from trying to ethnically cleanse each other in Bosnia.

> it was happy to be part of Russia/USSR

It was so happy in Imperial Russia that the authorities saw it fit to severely censor publications in Ukrainian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ems_Ukaz

It can also be instructive to look at this list and see how many of those were against Russia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_uprisings

As for the USSR, well, there was that whole Holodomor thing.

Most large nations have these kind of issues from time to time. US had the civil war. Still, I wouldn't say that historically Ukraine wanted to be completely separate from Russia in the same way as Ireland has (from UK).

Nationalists are usually the loudest minority, while the bulk of population does not really care.

The only time I can think of when Ukraine as a polity expressed the desire to be aligned with Russia was the Pereyaslav Rada during the Hetmanate. And that one was really a choice between Russia and Poland, so the only question they answered is whether Ukraine is culturally closer to one or the other (no surprise there, given their religion). It did not preclude the subsequent hetmans from seeking foreign aid against Russia in further rebellions.

The Ireland/England example was meant to be an example of how speaking the same language is not indicative of having the same culture.

Culture is really hard to pin down, and there are examples of distinct national identities that are really hard to differentiate in ethnographic terms--the US and Canada are the example that comes readily to mind here.

As for the "Ukrainians happily being part of Russia/USSR" bit, I think the sibling comment does it more justice than I can.

> but for the most part it was happy to be part of Russia/USSR until the USSR collapse.

All of the Ukrainian imigrants in North America would dispute that. See also, Holodomor.

My father is a Ukrainian immigrant in North America. He does not share your opinion. So you probably shouldn't speak for all of them.

As for Holodomor, it was caused by a bloody dictator who killed a lot more Russians than Ukrainians during the same period, so I'm not sure it proves anything about Russian/Ukrainian relationship. To him it would not make any difference if Ukraine was not part of Soviet Union (see how he treated Poland).

The definitive relationship between Ukraine and Russia was established when Russia very deliberately arranged to starve 2 million Ukrainians to death by the expedient of driving in and stealing literally every bit of agricultural product they could get their hands on, and killing anybody in their way. Many thousands fled where they could to places with difficulties of their own, often also of Soviet origin.

Shortly after, Germans rolled in and devastated the country. Then, the Russians came back through, treating everyone still alive as a Nazi collaborator (because "how could they still be alive, if not?"). Ukrainians who had been drafted by the Nazis and forced to serve as cannon fodder, but survived, were shot or deported to the GULag as traitors (because "how could they still be alive, if not?").

Ukrainians do not think of themselves as Russian even so much as Irishmen consider themselves English.

Try this? https://yandex.com/maps/?ll=39.625545%2C48.176813&z=7.94

Yeah, that illustrates my point.

In this Yandex map, Abkhazia is labelled.

On both Google Maps and the iOS Maps application (at least on my telephone, as I currently sit in Ukraine), there is no such label.

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