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Comment by oblio | Hacker News Reader

I have a question for commenters here.

Let's assume that you have group A, in a position of power, wealth, education, connections, etc.

There is also group B, which has none of that.

Let's assume that naturally group A doesn't want to give that up. If you don't agree, you don't know enough about human nature and I'd really like to see studies that back up your opinion.

Let's assume that most people are ordinary and statistically most people don't break through to a higher position.

How do you equalize groups A and B?

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Why would you presume that individuals share blame or benefit with their groups? If one member of a group acts poorly, is it fair to penalize another member of that group? If one member of a group is privileged, is it fair to penalize a non-privileged member of that group to "even out" the groups?

Because there are in-groups and out-groups and we're tribal animals, social animals.

None of this is new, the Ancient Greeks knew this (zoon politikon).

So your proposal is just to abandon the second group, am I right?

You didn’t answer his questions though? Why is it fair to penalize someone for the color of their skin? I thought the whole point is to make things better for people?

> You didn’t answer his questions though?

Ok, I'll answer you, but you won't like it.

> Why is it fair to penalize someone for the color of their skin?

Because it's already happening in real life... It's just not codified anymore, or it isn't codified in obvious ways (see crack cocaine vs cocaine).

So this "penalizing" is just evening the scales.

> I thought the whole point is to make things better for people?

You need both the carrot and the stick. A dominant group rarely abandons its position willingly.

Eisenhower had to send freaking paratroopers to enforce desegregation in schools.

People are not the groups they belong to. Looking at it as "carrot vs. stick" already reveals you're thinking about this the wrong way.

You're right, discrimination happens and it's not codified. So the solution is to start codifying discrimination? That kind of thing is either wrong or it isn't. The ends don't justify the means.

Yes, any intervention you can implement will slow down integration.

This a community for startup founders. Each of them cultivates a personal myth that they're successful because they were smart and worked hard. They don't like to admit that the system is rigged in their favour.

...and even if most people here have heard of survivor bias and selection bias, they still ignore it.

And are group A/B distinguished by race, or other factors?

There are plenty poor whites, many struggling in red states / rust belt, that don't have power, wealth, education, connections etc. Would it be reasonable to group them with other whites who do have those connections to offset that to justify positive discrimination on a racial black/white basis?

Well, frankly the best way to do it would be, you guessed it, socioeconomic status, primarily wealth and income.

Same thing, proportional representation, but based on social classes.

However, how do you do that and how do you prevent it from being gamed? Are universities allowed to ask for paychecks going 10 years back? Asset lists? ZIP codes for where the family lived in the last 10 years? Proof that you've been on the dole?

I feel if you are looking for a grant / scholarship, asking for a bunch of information (like a bank would if you applied for a mortgage) isn't unreasonable.

The US already keeps tabs on socioeconomic status in the form of the IRS and tax laws, so any hidden income/assets would have to answer to that first.

There is a difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome.

When you take from those that contribute to society and give to those that don't, in order to equalize, fewer and fewer will keep contributing.

There is no equality of opportunity, that's the thing.

The game is rigged.

In Romanian we say "cine se aseamănă, se adună": "those who are alike, gather together".

It's something that needs to be fought actively otherwise the first mover advantage is eternal.

Why do Americans speak English? Surely the non-British immigrants greatly outnumber the British ones?

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