Hacker News Reader

Comment by patrickdavey | Hacker News Reader

I have been lucky enough not to work in an organisation where I've been shouted at. What are you supposed to do in that situation? I'm pretty sure now I'd feel confident calling it out (though I definitely wouldn't have as a junior), but, what can you do if it doesn't stop? Just leave? Bullies just make me so angry.

View on HN

I think you are seeing an example of what you do. Here's a guy that has devoted an enormous amount of time and effort into a project, and decided that being yelled at wasn't for him - enough so that he departs something that is very important to him.

And since he's not naming names, he's being professional about it, but pointing out that the bad behavior isn't for him.

It is about as good as a response that can be considered, given the circumstances.

> It is about as good as a response that can be considered

Just FYI, you want:

> It is about as good a response as can be considered

(Incidentally, I couldn't agree more with your comment. It was a very magnanimous response that he gave.)

This really doesn't seem like a "win" for Chris though? He's having to leave a toxic environment and leave a project he cares deeply about. In a company as big as Apple do they not have procedures in place to stop this behaviour? It just feels like the shouting person learns they can get away with this when they should be told this behaviour must stop or they'll be on their way out.

> In a company as big as Apple do they not have procedures in place to stop this behaviour?

In my own experience… Apple is a large company, with a huge variety of teams with different accepted standards of conduct.

But the Swift language is also an open source project, so this is a pseudo-open dev community so I’m not sure if Apple’s internal corporate culture even has a strong hold over this mailing list and those WebEx meetings that probably include volunteers, not just Apple employees.

If you want to fight, maybe it becomes a battle of attrition fighting psychos on their own level. I think it's more of a win to be the bigger person and live your own life, especially after how much he's already accomplished.

You either leave or crush the bullies under your thumb, and there's rarely any middle ground.

So in practice, yeah you leave.

You pretty much have to leave. There are some people who will respond well to a direct request to stop or a clear statement of how the shouting makes you feel.

I guess my question is: why is this tolerated? Isn't it just simple harassment so management have to actually do something (even if they don't want to?)

Depends on management. I've certainly ended meetings when someone started to raise their voice and had a one on one conversation with them about professional behavior as well as expectations.

Because the organizations who will hire someone who screams at people are either a) under enormous pressure, b) manned by psychopaths, so your boss's boss either does the same thing or is a cool cucumber who exploits those with less self-control, or c) dysfunctional to the point where they cannot see what's happening or correctly evaluate candidates. It's frustrating and an incredible waste of human potential.

That said you are right; you should also raise the issue to upper management. You have more options than just speaking to them directly.

Perhaps management is complicit? Given they are a pressure cooker culture with even more secrecy than your average org, this might be normal for them.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com