Tax Advantaged Accounts
andrewucho.com
andrewucho.com
My income is around that, although I guess I wouldn't hit the limit due to maxing my 401K.
What would happen if I contributed too much to an IRA one year? Would I have to pay a penalty during tax season? Would I get the difference back in cash?
https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/01/21/you-can-still-do-a...
Is that confirmed? I was holding off on doing my backdoor Roth because it seemed like no one was really sure what was going to happen if BBB passes. Most people figure that it would at least take effect in 2023 instead of the original intent of 2022, but as far as I know, it wasn't actually changed.
The 10 year rule applies to a traditional -> roth conversion to high income earners.
"If you contributed to a Roth when you made too much to qualify—or if you contributed more than you’re allowed to either IRA—you’ve made an excess contribution. That contribution is subject to a 6% tax penalty"
2. People compare Trad. IRA and Roth IRA a lot, but I've never seen any that consider the effects of the avoided current tax payments of a Trad. IRA. Ceteris paribus, if you are putting $6000 in an IRA this year, you have an extra ~$1500 in your pocket if you choose the Trad. IRA (because you avoided paying taxes right now). What do you do with that money? I'd argue that a proper comparison requires that you put that money in a non-tax-advantage account. That makes a difference, especially if you think you will have an early retirement situation!
3. In addition to the various states that have no income tax at all, there are a good number that do not tax retirement distributions at all. While the Feds may consider it as earned income, depending on where you live, your effective tax rate in retirement may be significantly reduced - also something that should be considered when comparing Trad. IRA with Roth IRA.
Terminology: in the tax preparation industry, "pre-tax" and "post-tax" usually only refer to contributions (not account types) that are or are not (respectively) excluded from current income. Earnings in the account over time are either tax-free or tax-deferred (depends on account type and what the distributions of said earnings are eventually used for), and distributions are either taxable (possibly with penalty), or tax-free.
HSA - these are indeed like a Traditional IRA "on steroids", but calling it "a pre-tax account that is only allowed to spend money on healthcare related items" is incorrect. Distributions from HSAs can be spent on anything, but they are taxed as ordinary income if not spent on medical expenses. Also, before age 65, distributions not spent on medical expenses receive a 20% penalty as well as regular tax. So, at age 65, it essentially turns into a regular Trad. IRA (distributions are taxable), except if you want, you can pay your Medicare premiums and other health expenses tax-free from the HSA.
An HSA can either be through an employer or opened directly by the individual. If there are other tax-advantaged employer health expense arrangements (or Medicare coverage), contributions to HSAs maybe limited. I have known of the benefits of HSAs for years but always felt the employer subsidy for non-HDHP insurance coverage was a better deal; however if you don't have employer insurance coverage, HSAs are probably the best way to go. See IRS Publication 969 for more details.
401k - "No access until minimum age 55". But what's worse, there is essentially no access at all while you are still employed with that employer, in other words you can't take any money out unless the plan allows it (and most don't), even if you are willing to pay tax & penalty. (There may be a loan option, but that is a bad idea for several reasons).
"For self-employed people, I would look into a SIMPLE 401K. " For self-employed people with no employees of their own, a solo 401k (401k with only the owner as a member) allow for much higher contribution levels than SEP-IRA, especially at lower profit levels.
IRA - "with an income of $140k, one cannot make ANY contribution, at least directly. " False. With even a little earned income, any taxpayer can make a contribution to a Trad. IRA no matter their total income (AGI). What the income limit pertains to is the deductibility of contributions to Trad. IRA (pre-tax or post-tax). And there is also an income limit that prevents any contributions to a Roth IRA at all. Until recently there was an age 70.5 cut-off on making contributions.
" IRAs do not allow access until minimum age 59.5" -- well they do, but with a 10% penalty (other than a few exceptions for special purposes). One feature not many understand is that at any age, you can convert money from Trad. IRA to Roth, pay the tax, and then after five years you can take that money out penalty-free from the Roth. So if you can afford to pay the tax now and wait five years, you can get some or all of your money out of your IRA at any age without penalty.
Section 529 plans aka QTP - "One can switch beneficiaries tax free up to $70k (double for couples) by "front-loading" or "superfunding", although there are federal gift tax consequences". This is really mixing up several different things. First, it is extremely unlikely that anyone would end up paying any gift tax on contributions to a 529 plan, although there may a tax reporting requirement (Form 706). Also, switching beneficiaries does not have anything to do with a $70K limit. What is being referred to is that one can contribute up to five year's worth of gifts all at once, each under the annual reporting threshhold for gifts, instead of having to spread the contributions out over five years to avoid reporting (and again, even with reporting, it is extremely unlikely any gift tax would be owed).
About the "pre-tax" and "post-tax" terminology, you are right, I should change "post-tax" to refer to when distributions are tax-free. I had to keep the table to a certain width, so had to come up with short terminology.
I think calling an HSA "a pre-tax account that is only allowed to spend money on healthcare related items" is fair, because that's how the government refers to it. https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Taxes/Pages/He... "Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) were created in 2003 so that individuals covered by high-deductible health plans could receive tax-preferred treatment of money saved for medical expenses". The rest of your point on HSAs stand though.
IRA - "with an income of $140k, one cannot make ANY contribution, at least directly." Yes, this was a typo, meant it specifically only for Roth.
"One feature not many understand is that at any age, you can convert money from Trad. IRA to Roth, pay the tax" I briefly mention this in the post, but left out details for brevity sake.
"So if you can afford to pay the tax now and wait five years, you can get some or all of your money out of your IRA at any age without penalty." I do not think this is correct in the normal case. You must be 59.5 years of age unless you qualify for an exception. Also, you wouldn't want to take this money out early anyway unless you direly needed to.
For your 529 point, I only hinted at this and could've worded it better, but switching beneficiaries and the $70k limit is relevant if you have a 529 for an unborn child that you are accumulating. I'll reword this.
> IRAs do not allow access until minimum age 59.5
For a Roth IRA, you can withdraw the contributions, but not the earnings, at any time. For example, if you contribute $5k that gains $100 in interest, you can withdraw the $5k without penalty. If you withdraw the $100, it'll be taxed and penalized.
One source:
> You can withdraw contributions you made to your Roth IRA anytime, tax- and penalty-free. However, you may have to pay taxes and penalties on earnings in your Roth IRA.
I added this to the page :)
1) after age 65, the HSA no longer has any restrictions (penalties) related to medical expenses, it works just like a Trad. IRA except that if you do reimburse for medical expenses, the distributions are tax-free.
2) Each conversion from Trad. IRA to Roth IRA starts a five-year timer on that conversion, after which the amount converted can be withdrawn tax and penalty free, just like Roth contributions. So for example a 40-year old who leaves a job and rolls over a 401k balance to an IRA, can then choose to pay tax now (via Roth conversion) and then take out some or all the money penalty free at age 45, which is significantly younger than age 59.5 (for IRA) or 55-and-separated-from-service (for 401k).
This is all true as far as it goes. However, if you've ever had to do any work for one of the trust custodians, you'd be keenly aware that DOL regulations require that all the different types of contributions be segregated into different accounts - or if you physically commingle the funds, you have to account for them separately on your own books.
So there are in fact different accounts for pre-tax & post-tax... except it's actually more like pre-tax employee contribution, pre-tax employer match, pre-tax employer profit-sharing, post-tax employee contribution, post-tax excess contribution, etc. etc.
These different account types are used to track the tax character of the eventual distributions. If you didn't have different pre- and post-tax accounts, it would be a frickin' nightmare to prepare forms 1099-R
[1] https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-funds/profile/VTSAX
What pisses me off is no one talks about organizing your accounts around early retirement. There seems to be no benefit in using any tax advantaged accounts if, say for instance, you wanted to retire at 35. Further still, if you did use tax advantaged accounts and wanted to retire early, you've screwed yourself because you pay a penalty for pulling those funds out.
Only if you don’t plan on living past 59. You still need to save for your post 59 life even if you begin retirement at 35. With a 401k, you still have something for later, if you can retire at 35, it isn’t wise to start tapping all your saved resources early.
You say "What pisses me off is no one talks about organizing your accounts around early retirement" but I allude to this in my post about Traditional 401k* -> Traditional IRA -> Roth IRA conversion. There is a huge benefit to this if you have an early retirement.
I don't know what you "allude" to, but no one who retires early uses a Roth IRA. You incur the same penalties and have to follow rules on withdrawals, so I don't know what you're talking about.
Yes, there are articles out there on using an HSA brokerage account, but I don't know a single person who thinks its a good idea to commingle your investments with your healthcare. An overwhelming amount of people have a PPO over anything else.
If you were planning on exotic types of investment strategies, you're better off doing that in your actual investment choices versus the vehicles you plan on using to do so.
Tax advantaged accounts are for people who plan on retiring at traditional retirement ages. Brokerage accounts for everything else.
Most people who purchase healthcare do it for healthcare purposes, not investing. Turns out most people don't like high deductibles.
Who actually says to themselves, "Yeah, I'm going to set up a backdoor or mega-backdoor tax advantaged account," but also wants to retire at 67? It just sounds insane to me that you'd put in all of this effort to screw yourself.
Vanguard has this stuff across many different webpages managed by different groups. The usefulness is that this info is all aggregated in one page, and also includes info not provided by Vanguard.
Not that I need to justify this post to you, but Vanguard does not talk about: heartbeat trades on mutual funds, 529 on unborn child, megabackdoor, SEPP, amongst many other points.
"no one who retires early uses a Roth IRA." This is just patently false and I would recommend researching schemes like ROBS to benefit yourself. Peter Thiel and Mitt Romney are famous examples, the former literally has billions in his Roth. Also, as mentioned in my post, you contribute to your traditional 401k tax-free in your high-earning years and then convert to a Roth Ira in your early retirement slowly.
"If you were planning on exotic types of investment strategies, you're better off doing that in your actual investment choices versus the vehicles you plan on using to do so." If you have a high edge investment strategy, you actually would want to do it in a Roth.
"Tax advantaged accounts are for people who plan on retiring at traditional retirement ages. Brokerage accounts for everything else." This is false. If you have 10M at 25 and will never make a single dollar ever again, you'd still want to contribute to your retirement accounts, albeit in a smaller rate.
"Most people who purchase healthcare do it for healthcare purposes, not investing. Turns out most people don't like high deductibles." Key word: "most". If you are young and healthy, you can take it. In the case of an absolute disaster, you'd quickly hit your deductible limit (e.g. my HDHP has a $3k deductible. Easily handled).
"Who actually says to themselves, 'Yeah, I'm going to set up a backdoor or mega-backdoor tax advantaged account,' but also wants to retire at 67? It just sounds insane to me that you'd put in all of this effort to screw yourself." Look up the SEPP exception.
Various Tax Advantaged accounts provide various legal protections though different states have different laws about said protections. Still, many of the protections, especially in my state, make it worth it.
The IRS website is pretty vague on what the implications are besides providing "protections".
[1] https://www.irahelp.com/slottreport/how-safe-creditors-your-...
[2] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/04071...