Are there bad actors in marketing. Yes. A lot. Marketing agencies are full of them. Agencies, to generalize, only care about short-term results and selling the client on the next big idea. They won’t be around or have to live with the repurcuions of their bad actions. In fact, the clients are their customer and so they don’t really care about the client’s customers at all so long as the client is paying them. They just need superficial numbers to go up to show the client. They are screwing over the client and customers are unfortunately collateral damage, but the agencies, again, don’t really have to deal with that.
A lot of the most anti-consumer tactics do not work in the long-run. Most consumers aren’t so easily tricked into buying a product today and they most certainly won’t be tricked twice. It doesn’t take too long—usually—for the snake-oil salesman to get run out of town. They just do a lot of damage while around.
Either the dynamics work in favor of the people, or they don't. That we continually mistake the comfort of our ships with the state of the sea is just the blessing and tragedy of our ignorance.
You can do cool and interesting things in marketing and outreach and there are actual use cases for them. For example, libraries often carry unconventional items, and making the community aware that they can borrow a sewing machine/get seeds to plant/get museum passes is technically marketing and 'creating' a need, but it's not exploitative.
It's a very similar situation to dev work in that if I were willing to chuck my ethics out the window, I would make a lot more money, and marketing people do also like money.
I would rephrase the one as raising consciousness about important issues, and leave the other one under the label marketing, which to me is limited to commercial enterprises and indirect money grabs, a lot of which is related to politics and creating artificial divisions in society (the 'haves' vs the 'have nots' and so on).
This is reductionist. Was telling people about trains and cars creating a need where there wasn’t one? In a sense. But in another sense, it was broadcasting a better way of being. Marketing doesn’t have to be evil. Saying all marketing is evil is sort of a cop out for the people who do it badly.
People were telling each other about these.
> Marketing doesn’t have to be evil.
No, indeed it doesn't. But as a rule it definitely appears to be. It's a bit like arsenic: it doesn't have to be negative but usually it is.
> Saying all marketing is evil is sort of a cop out for the people who do it badly.
If 99% of the people engaging in an activity are doing it badly then I'm all for reigning them in, in spite of the 1% that are doing a swell job.
This is a good analogy. In stories, arsenic is almost without fail evil. In reality, it has use in medicine, agriculture and ceramics [1].
> If 99% of the people engaging in an activity are doing it badly then I'm all for reigning them in
We agree. And I have no horse in this race. But that 99% figure is largely confined to tech-based marketing. The people painting print ads and planning PR stunts aren’t hurting anyone.
You must have missed the cosmetics industry.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/05/03/9887569...
Marketing is a tool. It can be misused. It can also be used for good. In fact, now that I raise the point, I wonder why nobody's thought to use ad microtargeting for COVID-19 vaccine campaigns yet.
They probably have and I just haven't noticed, because when good marketing's working it tends to be invisibly transparent.
If I may: I think your larger problem is really that most product is crap, and marketing's job is to put product in front of people whether or not it's crap. Maybe we should be doing something about crap product instead of advertising of crap product?
As for the marketing of 'good' products: even marketing a good product comes with the implied 'right to market', where possibly none exists. You could get people hooked on very high quality vehicles for short trips because of convenience when the alternative, a bike, or even walking are perfectly acceptable. But if all your neighbors have been sold on the car then the message is that you can't be seen to be left behind, and that is a problem. Harnessing peer pressure for gain is an important element of marketing, which rarely is positive in nature, but usually tries hard to push people to feel inferior based on not using/owning a particular product.
And that's for a high quality product. Marketing is all about changing perceptions, to turn the unpalatable into something desirable and to turn the things you don't need into the things that you must own to be happy or to feel complete.
I used the cosmetics industry as an example because they've turned this into a veritable industry: people are made to feel terribly unhappy, to the point of in some cases committing suicide on the strength of marketing aimed squarely at making them feel inferior. This is revolting.
Then I believe basing policy off your definition of marketing would require first a tribunal to decide if something is "marketing" or... Whatever the polio campaign was. Because the national, then international, polio eradication project absolutely included perception and behavior modification.
Polio was only paralytic to a fraction of a fraction of its victims. For most, it was a bad bout of diarrhea and several bad days. And the vaccine (unlike the safer designs we have now) was either killed virus or half-killed live strain; in one terribly unfortunate batch, it caused polio. People had legitimate reason to believe things were good enough as-is (after all, most everyone had either gotten and survived polio or knew someone who had, with far, far fewer "Uncle Harry got it and he's in an iron lung" stories by volume) and getting some (possibly still-active) vaccine shot into their arms was going to be a bad long-term decision.
Against all of that, the March of Dimes did a huge amount of work to get people to go against their inclinations and the evidence available to their eyes to move polio from an "everybody eventually gets this" common environmental risk to a "makes the news" occasional outbreak. It's a brilliant success story of perception adjustment, on par with Colonel Stapp's crusade to make the seat-belt mandatory (speaking of which... http://persuasion-and-influence.blogspot.com/2015/02/wear-se...).
> Marketing is all about changing perceptions
No disagreement here. Sometimes, it's used to help people believe that the world can be other than it is, if we only all change our behavior to make it so.
> I used the cosmetics industry as an example because they've turned this into a veritable industry: people are made to feel terribly unhappy
No disagreement that cosmetics is full of bad actors and bad action, but people were putting eyeshadow and rouge on back when the closest thing we had to marketing was some statues declaring that a dead pharaoh was a cool guy (with the name scribbled out and replaced by some other dead pharaoh's name). I submit to you the humble possibility that people don't doll up because they're compelled by advertisers to do so (though I've no doubt advertising plays a huge factor in the way they choose to doll up).
> even marketing a good product comes with the implied 'right to market', where possibly none exists
The right to freedom of speech isn't universal, I agree. I submit that we do more harm than good trying to split the hair on deciding when something is freely-offered speech and when something is marketing, however. Good luck squaring those circles without getting eerily close to "prior restraint on open communication of ideas."
Let's just use the dictionary definition and save everybody a lot of time:
"the process or technique of promoting, selling, and distributing a product or service"
So I think the polio campaign doesn't have to be hauled in front of a tribunal (is that a new thing? I see this term used more and more for things that it has nothing to do with) to prove its worth.
Polio vaccination had to be sold as a concept. The public had to be taught, cajoled, coerced, and door-to-door-campaigned to volunteer to get stabbed with a cocktail of virus parts to protect them from a disease that hardly ever proved fatal or permanently debilitating. They had to be told their friends were doing it, their neighbors were doing it, all the "cool kids" were into it.
It looked like this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E1XpNTjWQAIRb_y.jpg
https://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2013/03/26/20d5929c-...
https://www.neh.gov/sites/default/files/styles/1000x1000_squ...
There were, of course, additional circumstances (having a President that is visibly impaired by the disease, though his people did their best to hide it, certainly mattered), but the March of Dimes absolutely promoted, sold, and aided in distribution of a service. Hell, the name March of Dimes was coined as a more marketable name than "National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis" because they were trying to convince everyone to chip in 10 cents to pay for the project (https://www.marchofdimes.org/mission/eddie-cantor-and-the-or...). It's every bit as much a sell as Sarah McLachlan showing up and singing over pictures of very sad puppies is today.
(And to be clear... Thank God it worked. It's great to live in one of the decades where my fear of polio is practically nil. But the point is: without marketing, none of that was a given. People didn't just wake up one day and go "I'm going to go get stabbed by a stranger with a needle full of disease-juice..." a vast marketing campaign convinced them that was the right thing to do. Same techniques that were being used to convince them they should drive to the injection site in their shiny new Ford because walking was for suckers).
The March of Dimes is and was in the marketing business.
> actually they have to reach back decades
March of Dimes is still here. It's a modern example as well as a decades-old one. Their primary purpose all but accomplished, they've re-targeted their efforts into information, support of families in NICU, and general patient advocacy.
I could have pulled a more recent example, but the polio campaign has the advantages of lack of ambiguity, common understanding, and the historical perspective to come to general agreement that it was an more-or-less un-alloyed good thing that we can avoid getting bogged down in those dimensions.
Nowadays, I'd point to the billions spent on COVID-19 vaccination advocacy and messaging as the good marketing can do, but I didn't really want to drag the modern-era anti-vaxxers out of the woodwork.
We did not start the discussion about the march of dimes or any such project, that's just a convenient fig leaf, what matters here is companies selling commercial products and services that people don't need while using armies of psychologists and a continuous barrage of media expressions to battle down the natural defenses to get people to act against their own interest.
If you want to have a side discussion that there are some applications of those same techniques that may have positive effect then you're free to do so but preferably not with me.
Take away the marketing and we have a world where most products still suck, and when we seek one out at random we'd be statistically likely to lay hands on something we don't need.
I've seen this argument a lot, especially by technically minded folks.
When you say "telling each other" what do you mean exactly? Do you think businesses just magically get talked about with zero investment in marketing dollars?
I get the sense that lots of people in the HN community don't realize when they read an article from <insert tech company engineering blog> that this is marketing dollars at work.
> But as a rule it definitely appears to be.
By your "rule", sure. I understand the gripe with marketing from the consumer perspective, but pretending is inherently evil because it (1) invades your personal attention and (2) you think people are going to organically talk about products or services they don't know exist is a pretty myopic view of marketing as a whole.
I don't think we need to discuss the meaning of words that are in the top 5000 commonly used dictionary words here.
> Do you think businesses just magically get talked about with zero investment in marketing dollars?
Yes. It's called word-of-mouth and it is how it has always been done.
Good. We're on the same page then. Snarky response not required but okay.
> Yes. It's called word-of-mouth and it is how it has always been done.
I don't know where to start with how to respond, but I'll bite:
Let's magically go back to the gold rush in the US. You're traveling from New York and arrive in San Francisco. You know nothing about products and services in that market. You walk into town and look for a general good store to buy some water. You ask a guy on the corner where the general store is and so you find the general store based on his help. Okay, so word of mouth. You want to prospect some gold and know you need to buy a pan. There are two gold prospecting material vendors in town, Gold Supply Inc and Acme Gold (but you don't know this because you're new to town). You walk through town looking for a vendor and notice a guy with a megaphone is yelling to the crowd about Gold Supply Inc offering better prices on pans. He is paid by Gold Supply to do this. This is marketing/advertising.
So, no, this is not "how it's always been done" and its inconceivable to think any modern company doesn't spend money on advertising/marketing. I understand the grievances about having hundreds of thousands of megaphones in your face 24/7, but let's stop pretending the world's marketplaces can operate efficiently on word of mouth alone because that's what you're implying.
Which may be true. Or not. And they may be crappy pans, or not. And that's my point: all that yelling just muddies the water, it's like a mountain of 'fake reviews' and no way to pick up the signal any more because of all of the noise. Marketing mostly lies.
You think that the average person:
- Be fully educated on every product and service available to them in every market they encounter
- Spend the time to speak to N amount of people via word of mouth and understand how many N amount of conversations are required to have the confidence to buy the best product (in terms of value, feature set, price, etc.) for the item they're looking for
- Discover products and services that they didn't know existed but may solve their problem in a novel way
All without any marketing/advertising interaction? And that this is somehow going to magically make buying decisions more clear (i.e. not muddy)?
Sorry but that is hilariously out of touch with reality...
and
> Sorry but that is hilariously out of touch with reality...
are incompatible with each other.
I respect most, if not all, of your viewpoints on HN (even if we disagree), but dodging the meat of my questions and clarifying statements isn't helping with your argument.
I'm not dodging anything here, it's just that it makes responding much harder because now instead of clarification we're off on some wild goose chase.
It's ok with me if you don't believe that people got by just fine before marketing became a weapon in the armory of companies that all compete for the same market because traditionally the reach of companies was fairly limited due to the cost of transportation. But (mass) marketing as a profession is a relatively recent invention, as are companies with global consumer reach.
The availability of 30 brands for the same niche is what drives one form of marketing ('we're better than them', when in fact the products are most likely at best at parity). The other is that plenty of 'need' is merely marketeers pushing jealousy buttons, something that you don't need to do if there is a genuine need for a product.
All that marketing and advertising is in the end an arms race and a big contributor to overproduction and overconsumption. The thing that needs marketing the most is probably the thing that you need the least.
Yes. It's hardly magic. If some business or service provides a great value or "a better way of being" people naturally get excited and tell their friends. I'm not a domain expert but my understanding is that these organic word-of-mouth referrals and recommendations are waaaaaay more effective than any other form of marketing. The other organic thing that happens is when people realize they have a need and ask their friends for referrals and recommendations. It works great if your product is great.
If you can't develop and sustain word-of-mouth organically then you have to use other less efficient and more coercive means. Deliberate marketing is commercial propaganda. Someone wants to put their hand in my wallet and is deliberately using professionally-design artificial media to trick me into letting them.
Your example of the barker with the megaphone is noise pollution and a waste of a human being. But you can go much further back. It was decadent when the Romans did it, and it was decedent when we San Franciscans did it, it's decadent today.
> its inconceivable to think any modern company doesn't spend money on advertising/marketing
You can't conceive it, maybe, but I can. There are worlds without advertising/marketing. There are marketplaces that operate efficiently on word of mouth alone. You might not believe me, but it's true, and from those worlds our modern advertising/marketing mania seems like a madness.
Which ones? Please enlighten me.
The high end of most services and products doesn't need to market, they're "saturated" by word-of-mouth alone. For example, I met a guy once who was part of a very high-end IT consultancy. They had A-list customers, all the work they could handle, and their website was a single line of text that basically said, "You have a problem? Email us". In other words, most markets have a subset of "quiet" companies that thrive on word-of-mouth alone.
That's a great example actually, because the reason you can't get anywhere without a car these days is marketing campaigns by the automobile and oil industry. First by suggesting the newly necessary road safety standards and ridiculing people for being in the street without a car ("jaywalking") to the point that it was criminalized, then by sponsoring enormous displays about the glorious car-dependent future at multiple world fairs (GMs "Futurama" holds the attendance record at 5 million visitors to this day), shutting down streetcar companies via lobbying and acquisitions and eventually even providing the US secretary of defense, who then used the defense budget to bulldoze inner cities to run highways through them. A development that caused the US to have the highest car dependence, car ownership and transport emissions of any large nation today.
So yes, I think it's fair to say there was a bit of artificial need created here.
You do realize that having the ability to hop in your car and drive wherever you want to go without having to report to anyone provides an incredible amount of freedom, right?
Take a look at other countries. Japan, Singapore, France with cities like Paris, Netherlands with cites like Amsterdam, which transformed from a car centric city in the 1950s to now a very lively city with lots of bikes and public transport.
We aren't all brainless automatons. Not everything is a giant conspiracy. Have you considered that there are people that actually like cars and find them convenient and useful? Cars and the highway system completely changed the course of commerce in this country. Sure, that has lead to some problems we're going to have to correct, but this idea that a bunch of moustache-twirling executives sat in a board room figuring out how to force cars on people is a bit much.
Unless of course we're in the midst of a "Great American Streetcar Conspiracy"-Conspiracy Conspiracy. ;-)
Japan seems to do fine [1].
Infrastructure like trains or roads are a huge net benefit to society already, if they can make a profit too that's neat but it shouldn't be the goal.
Cars would have been wildly successful without marketing, but the deliberate marketing efforts of car companies significantly amped up that demand and pushed us into being a society that is unheathily dependant on these amazing machines.
> this idea that a bunch of moustache-twirling executives sat in a board room figuring out how to force cars on people is a bit much.
This "idea" is strongly backed up by the historic record, so if this seems like "too much" you really need to recalibrate your intuitions with reality.
> a bunch of moustache-twirling executives sat in a board room figuring out how to force cars on people is a bit much.
That's pretty much exactly what happened. I don't know that they twirled their mustaches though, I'm sure they all thought they were doing the right thing.
"The Real Reason Jaywalking Is A Crime" (Adam Ruins Everything) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxopfjXkArM
It was a classic case of "seemed like a good idea at the time".
> Sure, that has lead to some problems we're going to have to correct,
That's pretty facile. For one thing more people (in the USA) have died directly from cars crashes than from all the wars we've fought. For another there's the pollution: exhaust is deadly poisonous, tires wear down and shed millions of tons of tiny particles of vulcanized rubber into the environment, the fuel we burn contributes to the Greenhouse Effect, the asphalt of the roads is toxic, and there are so many roads and so much pavement that it affects planetary albedo. Then there are the unquantifiable changes to the social order: streets used to be public ways for everyone, now they are the domain of the automobile and people are confined to the sidewalks for fear of mayhem and death. I could go on and on.
I think if an alien landed here and looked around one of it's first reactions would be, "WTF is up with all these cars!?"
The problem is that it wasn't enough for cars to be a useful tool for those that needed it, but that they needed to be a source of endless growth, and marketing played a crucial role in that.
There's no need for mustache twirling here. Car companies rationally maximized their profit by selling to everyone they could, rationally removed barriers to car adoption by removing everyone else from the road and rationally created new markets for their product by encouraging sprawling cities and enormous highways, which also acted as a competitive moat. They then disregarded the consequences, not because they were evil, but because their job was to maximize car sales, not the car's benefit to humanity.
All of this is just things working as intended.
I do not negate your point that marketing has a strong component of creating a need where there isn't one. But, its success in doing so relies on a strong combination of cultural, economic and political backgrounds.
That's very single-minded. Marketing mainly informs about a product, which obviously also works even if you already have the need for it. And it can also help in realizing a specific need which the customer has not pinpointed yet. That's the whole point of acting ethically, to support, not to bait, trap and abuse.
If the above is not possible, then they will come to analyze my behavior online.
It's truly sad...
Paraphrasing The Godfather 3 "Finance is a gun, politics is knowing when to pull the trigger" and I would add "marketing is knowing HOW to pull the trigger".
> And it can also help in realizing a specific need which the customer has not pinpointed yet
Don't you love cold calls, spam and pop-ups?
Marketing helped to ruin the latest and finest revolution of our time, that is, the Internet.
Our product helps our customers comply with the law. The law created the need, we're just trying to make our customers lives easier by assisting them with complying.
So our marketing team focuses on informing potential customers what it takes to be in compliance as few are well aware of what it takes, and how our product can help with that.
Your customers were required to comply with the law, whether or not your company exist.
Whether you help them or not is up for debate, what isn't up for debate is that you sell them something, which they may need but not necessarily so. It's not your product that they need, it is compliance.
Making their lives easier is great: as long as your product doesn't mess up, at which point I'm sure your terms of service will say something to the effect of 'well, sorry, but it was your responsibility after all' and 'informing potential customers' typically - in that context - takes the form of pressing the fear buttons for possibly not being compliant and selling them a solution which they may not even need.
Seriously: this is a fantastic example of how being on one side of such a story you might lose objectivity, if I wanted to know whether your product is useful or not the last party I would trust is your marketing department. Who would I trust? My lawyer, who I would ask to establish whether or not (1) this particular law applies to me, (2) the risk of non-compliance outweighs the cost of your product, (3) whether the products terms and services really protect me or if it opens me up to a new level of liability, (4) whether there is a better / cheaper product and so on.
Indeed. And a lot of companies don't know that they have to, to what degree, or how to do so effectively.
> It's not your product that they need, it is compliance.
It's true they don't need our product. But it can absolutely help them, by spending less time and resources on compliance and the surrounding processes.
But they can't get all those benefits if they don't know we exist.
> Seriously: this is a fantastic example of how being on one side of such a story you might lose objectivity
I really struggle to see how you can come to that conclusion without having seen our product or our marketing.
> [If] I wanted to know whether your product is useful or not the last party I would trust is your marketing department.
But if you didn't know about our product, you certainly couldn't evaluate if it was useful or not. Without word-of-mouth, how would you even find our product?
To be fair, word-of-mouth worked very well for a long time. But there are still a lot of companies out there who aren't in compliance because they don't know any better, and a lot who still use a lot of time on compliance that could be spent on their core business instead.
What's wrong with trying to tell those companies that our product exists?
- What data support claims about your users’ experience? Conversions are not a good metric of user experience.
- People generally have a hard time evaluating the ethical merits of things that benefit them. Do you have some kind of independent evaluation so support your claim that you did nothing unethical? If a politician hires a lawyer as a fixer, and pays them to make problems go away with a minimum of information returned, is that politician acting ethically? If the fixer hires a hitman for that problem, does the politician’s ignorance of that act constitute ethical impunity?