Ask HN: How Is Your Neck?
i have recently been suffering from neck pain and headache, seems to be from bad posture. my fellow engineers, what do you do to keep those pain away?
I started an 8-week push-up challenge in which I found my max amount of push-ups without stopping (30) and then did 4 times that many (120) in a row, however long it took, gradually reducing the rest time between the sets. I did this 4 days per week. After that process I gained a lot of strength in 8 weeks and ability to do 40 push-ups without stopping. I've now switched to doing my maximum once or twice per day and increasing by 5 every couple weeks. I'm currently at 70, having a hard time going higher, but really feel incredible level of upper body strength from neck to back to abdomen, and am being more careful with my food choices as well. I think I'm now ready to do some more varied exercises, including cardiovascular and other things that challenged me earlier.
I find as I'm getting older it's really not worth sacrificing your body for engineering gains, I have too many tech friends who have chronic and sometimes debilitating pain and injuries as a result of the career. What's the point of great accomplishments in technology, career, and wealth if you can't enjoy them because of a broken body?
I encourage everyone to find an exercise routine that fits your lifestyle. Push-ups were great for me because I needed no equipment and could fit it easily into my work from home day, and target the areas of my body that were feeling weak.
Exercises like 15-20x3 lightweight face pulls are perfect. Another is shoulder IYTs. Stretching is also great.
First one is pulling something on shoulder level towards your face (hence face pull).
Second one is making the I, Y & T letters by putting your arms above your heat and literally mimicking the letters, where T means arms stretched to the side on shoulder level.
I also got a split keyboard which I think helped me improve my posture by allowing me to sit back more comfortably with my arms apart. I got a Dygma Raise but there are plenty of options and they're probably all fine.
Exercise also seems to help, especially shoulder/back exercise.
https://www.osha.gov/etools/computer-workstations/components...
I also got away from using a mouse. I was never comfortable using a wrist pad and as a result I’d experienced some wrist pain on and off when using a mouse. I switched to a trackpad and try to keep my hands on the keyboard as much as I can.
It's a constant struggle. The worst impact is probably phone use. Ultimately, I think the best path is to continually work on strengthening and stretching the neck muscles themselves, which reduces unconscious degenerative damage. The abs, chest and back muscles all have a part in the system too. If your chest muscles don't have enough elasticity, they contribute to pulling your head down further, and so on.
If all of that is too much to parse at once: do daily chin tucks.
What's shoulder dysfunction? Well a hunched or otherwise unusual posture that computer and phone usage encourage lead to mobility issues with the shoulder that eventually lead to joint issues too.
Relevant to the neck is the fact that the scapula attaches to the neck at multiple points and can contribute majorly to a situation where the neck muscles are overstretched or overtightened perpetually, and in a hypertonic state.
Yes, pull-ups and gym are great suggestions (although push-ups are not a great suggestion as they can contribute to chest tightness and forward shoulder positioning). But as someone experienced in suffering as well as the gym, my message is it's a hella lotta more complex than mentioned in these threads.
Oh and eye alignment issues can contribute. If your eyes don't align you might stare at your screens in a tilted way...
This will be a pandemic in 10-20 years, as a high percentage of the population will be affected.
I'm middle-aged and an IT guy, so I'm unfortunately the future. I cared little what was happening to my vertebrae and shoulder complexes in my 20s.
Your breakdown is a good window into the complexity of the systems involved here, and what's at stake. One looming fear I have, is that tools like VR headsets will make the coming tide rip through more people, more brutally. Our necks are so fragile and have such a huge impact on our breathing, eyesight, cognitive function, etc etc, that it's hard to overstate the importance of taking care of them.
One slight advantage programmers and knowledge workers have is that looking at the involved parts can become a fun game. What exercises have the highest benefit? What makes me feel better? What should I avoid on the basis of anecdotes, personal experience and physiological science?
I've found that making little discoveries around how these muscles work had an oversized positive effect on my wellbeing, with little cost. For example, just yesterday I discovered the muscle that runs from the edge of our lips up to the outside corners of our eyes. Kneading them a bit, getting them released, has made me feel like I just installed a brand new jaw on my head. It's a weird type of fun haha
Invest a few hours reading and watching the videos up front, and push through the first few weeks, and you won't regret it.
When I just started lifting, I would be flopped over on my desk exhausted. This ironically made my problems worse.
But now I sit much better without thinking. There is muscle to support my back and head.
One day, I decided to try something entirely different. I got a knee pillow - the kind made from foam for people to put between their knees at night. It was quite low and very small, but the concave cradle made for the knees seemed perfect for my head. Lo and behold - it worked! My neck pain did not disappear right away (at that point my neck would hurt through the day), but it did not keep getting worse anymore in the morning, allowing the pain to heal over time. The knee pillow is not very durable. The one I have has snapped in half recently, but I actually still like it since it makes the pillow even more customizable so that I can get into a comfortable position when I move during the night. I think I'll need to replace it soon, but they are so cheap that I don't mind the idea of getting a new one every few months.
What did I do? Drink water! Holy shit did that fix it almost immediately.
Buy a half a gallon metal jug and sip that all day until you finish it. Instant fix.
For many more details I can recommend
Starret(2016): Deskbound: Standing Up to a Sitting World
https://www.amazon.com/Deskbound-Standing-Up-Sitting-World/d...
ive looked at some from uplift which seemed kinda pricy.
not sure if i can trust the ones from amazon.
In addition I bought an Ikea Lidkullen seat, which I use when I can't stand it anymore (pun intended).
However especially for your neck it is important to the position your monitor in a way that you can look at it without bending your neck downwards or upwards also with a standing desk. That is why I have a monitor stand (I use a very cheap one called "monkey desk" made from cardboard, but there are probably better ones out there) also on my standing desk.
And if you stand a very long time it makes sense to invest in a floor mat. I use a puzzle floor mat similar to https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/foam-puzzle-mats . They are cheap and effective.
- height-adjustable desk
- monitor floating on an arm
- keyboard tray with adjustable tilt
- high-end office chair with many useful adjustments
- ergonomic input devices
With everything adjusted appropriately, I work in a perfect posture all of the time, without any strain, whether sitting or standing. I used to have pain and headaches all of the time, but now I only have them when I have tried to work away from my home setup. (I've since developed a good setup for working away from home, if anyone is interested.)
Other things I think are very important:
- Take breaks away from your desk as much as possible, for as long as possible. I like to go for a walk to think, and then come back to the desk with a plan of action. Remember that (if you're a typical HN software engineer) you are paid for what you accomplish, not for your chair time, so thinking time away from your desk is still working.
- Be physically active, including things that promote mobility. I find that the best approach is to make exercise something you do as part of life, not as a distinct activity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3-gKPNyrTA&list=PLciXFzGqhH...
Some days I just do it in the morning before work, or in the evening before bed. Other days I do it up to 3x per day: morning, after lunch, and evening. I also try other neck exercise/stretch videos on youtube to mix it up. I never expected 10 minutes of simple stretches to be so effective, but it has been like night and day for me.
Sometimes I forget to do it for a few days, and then I start to feel the pain again, so I just go back to doing the stretches. It's free and takes 10 minutes, so I recommend just giving it a try to see if it helps you. If I am feeling especially sore, I also use a heating pad and I find that it helps ease the pain.
I'm not in that position 100% of the time, sometimes I like to be able to lean back and stretch my legs out a bit, etc. and I do use my laptop screen as a second screen. The 'good ergonomic posture' position is just the default position I have my desk configured to.
edit: another thing that I might be missing here as well is that I try to walk a decent amount as a part of my daily routine and get at least some (albeit sporadic) more intense exercise in as well. But during walking I often make a conscious decision to fix my posture which I think goes some way to maintaining an ok posture at my desk as well.
- Stretch multiple times per day. Your neck, your back, your legs, all of it.
- Exercise. Especially lift weights targeting muscles in the affected areas.
- Take anti-inflammatory drugs as needed. They can help put your discs back where they belong.
- Get an MRI. This can help determine the underlying structural issues.
- See a physical therapist / doctor.
If you've never done pull-ups before, you won't manage to actually pull yourself up. However you can "hang" which stretches out the shoulder and kneck muscles.
Once I managed to do a number of pull-ups, all my kneck and shoulders pain vanished.
You can jump/step up so your chin is at the bar, and then lower yourself down as slowly as possible. Watch out for the muscle pain the next day though… and definitely stop if you don’t have the strength to slow yourself down. Listen to your body, muscle pain is ok, joint pain means stop immediately.
Just ten minutes most weekdays was enough to make me noticeably less skinny and stop the back pain.
Careful with those. If they fall off while you're doing your pull-up (which has happened to some people), you could seriously injure yourself.
I personally prefer to take a jog to a local park that has a playground and do my pullups on the heavy-duty metal bars they have there. Those are never going to fall off.
As a start try hand-stands (against a wall) and cartwheels. It’s fun and if you haven’t done them in a while you quickly get better at it. Most days after a session, I feel muscles in areas I never thought I had them. Being more flexible because of the stretching is another nice side effect. Best full-body workout I can think of.
But with that said, I don't think I want to bank on that lucky streak continuing forever...seen far too many people get debilitating stress/repetition injuries in their 50's, to the point that they pretty much have to retire.
- Minimize working on a laptop keyboard.
- Rowing machine.
- Be well-rested, which may require limiting caffeine intake.
Physio sessions gave me some tips for how to relieve the pain when it flares up, and going to the gym for the last couple of months seems to have helped a lot.
Can't say I recommend a standing desk - I have an adjustable motorised one and while I do use it sometimes, it seems to just shift pain from my back to my legs rather than giving any actual relief.
It may not work for everyone, I had to try many different things before finding out something that made a difference.
The fix: Force myself to sit and stand straight. Check with a physical therapist to show you how far back you need to keep your head, and keep it there 24/7 until it's a habit.
Also, planks for a minute in the morning help keep core strong.
Tilt forward and back, 10 times, left to right. Then head rolls.
Now I use a couple of standing desks ([0] and [1]) and a couple of those “standing/perch chairs” for lack of a better description ([2] and [3]). Simply standing without the perch chairs worked too, but I found I was more productive and less likely to walk away from the desk if I could occasionally lean back.
I also stopped using a mouse and went with a trackpad, alone with a split keyboard (ergodox classic). In my case the mouse and keyboard change had a much more noticeable, positive, effect than I would have thought.
I agree with others here in their recommendation to talk to an ergonomic expert if you can. I didn’t and consequently it took longer to figure out what worked. Since you’re working at your desk for potentially hours at a time, don’t be afraid to invest in a decent set up. It’s worth it.
As an aside, I picked up a leanchair [4] since it seemed like a good idea. I liked it at first, and you might consider it. However, I got in the habit (again) of kicking a foot against the leg/foot rest piece which seemed to shift my hips a little and absolutely beat up my lower back. I got rid of it as soon as I made the connection.
(Forgive the order, my iPad’s not cooperating)
[2] https://ergoimpact.com/ (kinda pricey)
[3] https://www.amazon.com/VIVO-Ergonomic-Adjustable-Anti-Fatigu... (less pricey, quality less than above, but otherwise as good)
[0] https://www.amazon.com/Ergotron-Computer-Adjustable-Height-2... (daily driver)
[1] https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/skarsta-trotten-desk-sit-stand-... (hand crank version - I only ever keep it at standing height, so the crank never gets used)
[4] https://leanchair.com/ (heard good things, but didn’t work for me)