Thoughts on Intel software-defined silicon
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The perverse incentives here seem a ton worse. There is direct incentive to be very aggressive with it, because even if they get the balance wrong they can adjust it later and employ all the marketing stuff done with software (50% off sale on vector math acceleration 2 days only!). It'll by definition always be used with features that the chips are fully capable of and thus even further pushes towards tiering capabilities without any connection to yield. The centralized control requirements moving further into underlying hardware are concerning as well from a redundancy and security perspective. I'm a big believer in businesses following the incentive tracks they create long term, for better and for worse. With this development, Intel's are diverging further from their customers'.
About the best that can be said is that at least the market now is a lot more competitive. Between Intel's fab woes, TSMC, AMD and both Arm and burgeoning RISC-V efforts, Intel is more on than I think they've been in a very long time. Maybe ever? Which does make it all the more curious to me why they're trying this now of all times. Seems like 5-7 years ago they'd have really has us. Now though it's just another thing in strong competitors favor. The end of a lot of core x86-64 patents is starting to kick off too. Or maybe Intel thinks this will let them do sticker prices that are drastically lower and thus look better vs AMD et al even as they can still extract more money in the end? It's worrying. In fact now that I think more on it, Intel weakening but using this brings its own extra worries. If they feel the need (or are forced) to juice returns for shareholders and themselves down the road if their competitiveness falters, or even if they regain dominance, they will have an installed base with a capability to squeeze it.
I hope AMD doesn't copy this. Intel has been on a downwards trend recently and maybe this is just a dumb, desperate move from them. As you say the landscape is getting more competitive, which is a good thing for consumers.
IDK. EPYCs board-lock to boards with Platform by blowing e-fuses. In some ways that's a bit more painful. (I get that it supposedly provides a Secure Boot. OTOH HP has supposedly done similar without having to blow the fuses.)
I understand the sentiment, but Intel will argue you didn’t pay in full for your hardware, so you didn’t pay for the features you won’t be able to use.
I see this as a continuum. At one extreme end, you pay a lump sum for perpetual use of the hardware (“buying”). At the other extreme end, they lend you the hardware as long as you have a subscription to their offerings (“renting”). Somewhere in-between, they offer you some basic functionality or a lower subscription rate if you pay a sum up front.
We have that intermediate with cable subscriptions. You get X channels with the subscription, but have to pay extra for others, or for a higher quality signal.
Again, I understand the sentiment, but I don’t think that you can claim you paid for something if the seller says you didn’t, and the seller advertised that you wouldn’t get what you think you bought for the price.
And yes, I can understand customers not being happy about this.
The moment things started to not ship with programming guides, and everyone started hiding their IC schemata and docs for fear of being sued were the first steps down this path we're going down.
I will not continue to follow it blindly, and I hope more people will join me as well. This has to stop.
I reject your assertion of the supremacy of the contract. The contract is a vehicle subordinate to State regulation , and the State recognizes there are things that cannot be contractually done, selling oneself or another into servitude being one, and I hold, that violation of First Sale rights should be another. To do anything else is to undermine the very concept of private ownership. When industry colludes and makes standard the practice of not offering wares for sale under traditional terms, I hold this as an appropriate circumstance for the State to step in, particularly when it is made as obvious that poor faith is at the root of the business practice. Insult me not with assertions that finding a way to extract multiple payments, or extort out recurring revenue by "unlocking" functionality via firmware delivered over the air is anything but poor faith veneered in the illusion of convenience for the customer in light of the purveyor also gaining the capability to at will degrade the product by definition.
Sounds crazy? Keep in mind, people used to pay money for programming language licenses. How many people are doing that anymore? Are the people who pay for that kind of stuff competitive businesses?
Is this even possible? Revocation is not simple to do especially if the CPU isn't connected to the internet.
I think this is the most concerning possibility... people building servers or devs and gamers will be able to wise up to the shenanigans and then pick a competitor; but punters walking around a computer store are not going to appreciate the differences if Intel get away with making big claims on the sticker (possibly even spinning "software defined silicon" as a way for them to upgrade hardware over the wire) - for the average consumer this would making an already difficult to achieve informed comparisons hopeless.
Reality may be different though, it's easy to assume the worst with the blue chips - perhaps this is just an optimisation on their current practices rather than a squeeze on customers, the concern is of course if they will exploit this new capability to the full potential we are all speculating on.
This. I can already imagine it: "hey, my notebook was getting a bit sluggish, but I upgraded it over the internet with Software Defined Silicon(TM) and just spent $100 instead of $500 that a new one would've costed".
And everyone who knows the "extra" capabilities were already there to begin with would be screaming on the inside.
But it sounds like the pushback was strong enough that it was quickly killed off.
Old laptop would have cost $100 more if they optioned it in at purchase like we currently do.
That'd be a neat trick to be honest, buy a base CPU, and if it works for your usage you saved, if not, buy the upgrade.
Subscriptions getting non technical users are the only way this goes wrong, and not saying it won't, but that's not really where things are at.
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HP is doing that with ink, I was truly deeply horrified to find out my mother pays a subscription for her printer.
The printer won't work without internet, even for local printing.
And you pay per page, not for ink. So they send you ink whenever you're out for "free", but if you run out of pages you can't print anymore...
- IIRC the printer will work without internet for a while (a week?), eventually you'll have to hook it back up though. (Makes sense to me if you're paying by the page.)
- You can't run out of pages. If you overrun your subscription, you just pay a few cents per extra page. Also, you can carry over pages up to a few months (so if your subscription is for 100 pages/month, and you didn't print in the last 2 months, you can print 300 pages this month without having to pay extra).
- Cost-wise, the subscription is actually a pretty good value compared to buying cartridges outright.
> IIRC the printer will work without internet for a while (a week?), eventually you'll have to hook it back up though. (Makes sense to me if you're paying by the page.)
In other words printer doesn't work without Internet.
You know you have a bad point when the creators of the thing don't even agree with it:
https://instantink.hpconnected.com/us/en/terms
If Your printer is not connected to the Internet, then the Instant Ink-activated Cartridges will be disabled and You will not be able to use them to print;
A grace period doesn't change anything about this.
> You can't run out of pages. If you overrun your subscription, you just pay a few cents per extra page.
In other words... you can run out of pages.
When you out of pages you're automatically forced to buy more pages, and if you don't, the printer won't print, regardless of ink level.
And the rollover had me howling with laughter, by capping rollover HP figured out away to literally take ink out of your printer if you don't use it!
Except it's "pages" they claw back of course, and instead of taking ink out, they just require you to pay for an additional month if you plan to use it even though it's sitting in the printer :D
> Cost-wise, the subscription is actually a pretty good value compared to buying cartridges outright.
It's not unless you buy the $20 a month plan and print 4,000 pages a month and they're mostly color...
https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/hp-officejet-pro-9015-all-in-o...
> If you buy the highest-yield XL ink cartridges (2,000 pages monochrome and 1,600 pages color) for this AIO, each monochrome page will cost you about 2.2 cents and each color print will run about 8.8 cents. Subscribing to the company’s highest-yield Instant Ink subscription (700 pages for $19.99 per month, with each additional 20 pages for $1), each page will cost you 2.9 cents… Hence, it is with colorful, content-heavy pages that Instant Ink delivers the best value…
God help you if you're one of the unfortunate souls suckered into an "occasional use plan"...
You pay 6 cents a page
At which point even color prints are more expensive!
And this is literally anything you print! Even a piece of paper that says "the" costs more than a full page full glossy color photo from a cartridge!
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C'mon, you really thought HP would literally lease you an ink cartridge and it'd be a good deal?
Because that's what Instant Ink is btw... they own that cartridge: https://support.hp.com/ee-en/product/hp-photosmart-microlab-...
It's genius really, they invented a program that mostly entices occasional users.
And charges them more than the ink would be worth even at first party prices (let's forget about 3rd party refills lol)
And then caps rollovers so that they can lose value which is an indirect way of... magically stretching ink.
Truly mind bendingly incredible but evil stuff. Kudos to whoever taught of it.
It's also cheaper by your own admission (6 < 8.8) (assuming color prints, because why else buy a color printer?).
Actually they try and predict when you will run out as opposed to waiting for you to run out.
Kind of like buy now, pay later. You can buy this cheap computer now but don't worry, you can always upgrade it later.
Also, to steel man Intel’s position, reducing hardware skus can improve yield and increase quality (due to the known silicon lottery phenomenon), that is one abstract benefit to consumers.
This is basically taking the tiered SAAS and trying to manifest that business model ability into hardware.
In that case, that number has no use except with that specific processor. This is different than how DRM content protection works because the nature of that problem is different.
IBM did it for years with mainframe pricing, they had excess mips installed and allowed burstable performance setups for a fee, on hardware you “owned”. Amazon took this strategy over, albeit without the ownership sham. Now Intel wants a slice. It’s turtles (ie greedy MBAs) all the way down.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/facepalm-of-the-day-intel-char...
If anything, I expect this will hurt them where it counts. IT folk will not be amused and find other places to spend their money. The decision to lock up working silicon is radioactive and will have long lasting consequences on buying. I like to imagine this sort of decision being made across the world, as other engineers learn of these anti-consumer shenanigans and make waves in their own organizations.
Too bad AMD has largely ignored the workstation market. The last threadripper release was mid 2020 and is a Zen 2 product. Newer Zen3 based chips have been credibly rumoured, but AMD themselves havent said anything about it.
Intel has also been ignoring the workstation market (although perhaps not by choice).
Despite the current-model Threadripper being nearly two-years old and last generation technology, it is still far and away the performance leader in that segment in terms of perf/watt, perf/dollar, and oftentimes outright performance.
i think that environmental/ recycling/ reusage argument can be a good basis for a campaign for a blanket ban against any such measures in any customer electronics. it seems like a very important battle
A quick search hints at [1] circa 2010, but I think I recall a previous attempt circa 2004
I'm pretty sure it was unpopular and short-lived.
I want them to win on some level, but this isn’t how to do that. If I had to I could tweak/fix/touch-up re-build all my stuff on ARM and life would go on.
That's probably a bit extreme, but generally the right train of thought.
Prime difference might be that from money point of view the way IBM handles it does end up in savings for the client (as it allows a pay-for-use/capacity rather than pay-for-hw model, and you can go 90% of the month in cheaper configuration and only pay for higher one for end of month/year ops).
Another difference is that technically with IBM you're paying a license for microcode running on the CPUs, and you mix and match differently licensed versions to match your workload.
OpenPOWER and PowerNV systems running on the metal don't do this, but if there's an LPAR involved (AIX, i5), you could be on the hook. The moral of the story is to buy your Power gear from a company like Raptor unless you must run AIX.
We already see this with other hardware... Think Dell iDRACs and HP iLOs, which just need a few tricks to get all those licensed features once they're out-of-support and the vendor isn't keeping track of them as part of the support contract.
I'd also like to think this will lower the bar on upgrades during sales negotiations. HP, Dell and Lenovo are trying to get you to buy 100+ servers from them instead of their competitors, one of them might offer a free software upgrade for the CPUs as part of the deal, since it really doesn't cost anyone anything to do so... We've all seen deep discounts on software sales/licenses because their per-unit cost is nominally $0, now that model may be extended to hardware.
Of course the counter-point that comes to mind is IP-KVMs. If you've seen them being sold used for $20, that's because the hardware is useless without an ongoing subscription from the vendor. I suspect that only persists because IP-KVMs are too small of a market to attract the kind of effort needed to crack the mechanisms.
We'll have to wait and see.
For example, Intel could offer, say Zhaoxin's level of performance for free for a short time, making sure companies like Zhaoxin never make into the consumer market.
This is a great move for Intel but terrible for the consumers.
Maybe get your shit together on being eaten alive on one side by aarch64 and Threadripper on the other before inventing some new way that what used to be called a nasty zero day is now a “feature”?
Nice self reflection (:
I think this will almost certainly be used to either kill second hand processor sales (by either burning the processor to a given motherboard), or to allow Intel to double dip post sale, much like EA’s “project ten dollar” did with used video games.
Seriously, does anyone believe otherwise? This is straight out of the rent-seeking playbook.
So this article would make sense when thinking about the above comment, only instead of features being factory fused or disabled, they become a payable option which might be a one time fee or an option which can be switched on for a period of time.
From a recycling point of view, it would make sense, people dont have to throw away a computer or shelve it when they want to upgrade, but I cant help but think what about the realisation over time people may come to if this instruction set on/off service/rental/purchase becomes an option? Would that then harm intel or not if it became known that and would that spawn some new hacking interest in microcode or whatever it is that controls the enabling of different instruction sets?
Really not true. What happens is that during manufacturing of a particular design, you get a distribution - not all units will have all features working. They analyze the data, and partition the units into segments based on (common) features that do work. Those on the tail end of the distribution (on the positive side) are the most featureful and sold with a premium. And so on from there.
If they actually tried to manufacture different CPUs for high and low end features, then each of those would have their own distributions, and they'd waste a lot of units for not meeting the spec. This way they can simplify the production and not waste the units.
Not saying they may not also do what the GP said, but from what I've heard most of it is my explanation. I think his comment is more applicable to the data center chips they make, and less for the consumer chips.
Although it does depend on what kind of features are paywalled. I can see many ways how this could turn into a disaster for consumers.
Expect this to be used for features that are comparatively cheap in terms of area but valuable for enterprise. Virtualization features, ECC, that sort of thing.
This will slow the adoption of those features in software ecosystems since many developers still quite reasonably focus on stuff that works on their local machine.
Note: these help for wide multiply, as needed most prominent by ed25519 and RSA. They do apply for "just" 256bit vectors using 4 lanes of 64bit (where multiplicands are just the low 52bits), without the AVX-512-typical clock penalty.
In similar spirit, it would have been nice to get emulated AVX-512 on AMD and Intel's E-cores, as it uses just one instruction to process twice the width, reducing the frontend throughout requirements. Also said AVX-512IFMA is rather nice, regardless of vector width.
Was Intel's design team really unable to make that happen at a reasonable cost? Were they trying to build a product that supports AVX-512 but failed? I wonder if we'll ever know.
Theoretically, this is just giving you access to the features that would’ve been permanently fused off, but still good. Is it scummy? Yes. But is it wasting any more silicon than before? No.