Comment by baxuz | Hacker News Reader

Comment by baxuz | Hacker News Reader

The article almost exclusively talks about the US.

One reason that isn't mentioned in the article is because the US is fundamentally based on puritanism and a lot of its values, especially concerning passion and sexuality are still prevalent in its culture.

The "All American" OJ and corn flakes breakfast and circumcision (used as a form of genital mutilation to prevent masturbation) by Kellogs is still practiced to this day. In the US, sex is heavily politicized.

On one hand, everything is hypersexualized, but there is nothing genuine about any of it. When you get to the basics of it — sex is wrong. "Look, but don't touch". Everything is relegated to the sphere of fantasy and imagination.

Especially teenage sexuality is something that's vilified to no end. You can't expect adults to have a healthy sex life if everything they know about sex so far is that it's some sort of forbidden fruit.

__________________

Eh sure. Might be wrong. This is my experience with people I've interacted with.

That doesn't really explain the downward trend--at least directly. As the article hints at, our view of pre-marital sex has never been more positive.

And the article does not that other countries are seeing the same trend--though the ones that are mentioned are also historically protestant.

I think its probably the opposite. Historical dating has been stigmatized. The norm seems to be sex first, then a relationship. Young women, in particular, but also young men, are described as "needy," "clingy," or "creepy" if they expect monogamy from the outset of dating. I'd probably still be a virgin if I had to lose it during a one night stand.

> As the article hints at, our view of pre-marital sex has never been more positive.

Depends how you define "positive": Sure, it's not so much condemned on puritanical grounds any more (at least not openly). But if many of the kinds of (i.e. young, single) people who used to have lots of it are now all "meh" about it, then that's not much of a "positive view", now is it?

Puritanism regarding sex is trending down and has been for a long time. Puritanism regarding indulging the brain through other means is also trending down.

If circumcision had even the most tiny sliver of anything to do with it you can bet your ass that there would be an associated stereotype that's older than the US.

Teenage sex isn't vilified. It's all over in pop culture. See all the bottom of the barrel high-school drama shows that Netflix puts out for example. We don't talk about this because it's hard to reconcile with the "you're too stupid to make decisions because prefrontal cortex" message we bombard teens with at every opportunity.

I mean, this has always been the case, though, so not sure what this long, rambling comment has to do with the decline happening today. I also think you're being hyperbolic. No one, except fringe groups, treats sex that way here.

If you want to see a long rambling comment you should see one of mine.

This is nonsense. Religion, and associated sexual puritanism, are trending down in the US rapidly and have been for 60 years. By what mechanism is it exerting more control now than 20 years ago?

History suggests this isn't something HN likes to discuss, but could it also correlate with the rise of queer identities and general decline of straight sexual relationships? Half of my peers (myself included) came out as gay or queer after high school. That doesn't necessarily insinuate that they didn't engage in straight sex at the time, but the overall interest in it is certainly diffusing. I personally couldn't see myself in a fulfilling, long-term relationship with the opposite sex. Combined with the culture shock of being raised on Pam Stenzel videos, I don't really see this as surprising at all.

But I also don't really see it as an issue? Overpopulation has been a looming concern for the past few generations of human existence. Letting go of our "go forth and multiply" mindset has been a few decades in the making now, and loosening our regulation/criticism of the LGBTQ community coincides with that pretty nicely. Love is a matter of reciprocal fulfillment, and much to the chagrin of the self-proclaimed gigachads browsing Orange Site and /g/, that doesn't inherently necessitate procreation or family-building.

It s well documented that young men are having less sex. I would like to see a comparative study between gay and str8 men however

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-health-sex-idUSKBN23J...

It's right there in the article?

> Sexual activity was largely unchanged among unmarried women, along with no notable decline among gay men, researchers reported.

As an almost middle-aged straight man, from Europe, I see the problem described and discussed here as _mostly_ related to young men, seemingly incabable of forming normal healhy romantic relationships. There also seem a growing number of young women who cannot find a suitable partner amongst their own age group, since there are so many young men that simply don't fit the profile they're looking for.

That's obviously just anectdotal, and possibly just an old man yelling at the cloud. After all, hooking up at bars is something old people do. :D

It's definitely an issue we need to look into though. At least if we're at all interested in keeping our own cultures alive. If we don't, it's not going to be the end of civilization itself; it's just going to be the end of our own civilization since other cultures without such issues will still be around.

If this article can be taken to be representative of strange, pervasive, American views, I think it's showing a lot of its cards in the premise implied by the title[1], which I think asks the wrong question. There's almost the implication that sex is like money - more is always better, every dollar is the same as every other dollar, and it's as much about status as it is about the thing itself. There are other question to be asked: are people having good sex? Are they enjoying it, having fun? Is sex improving their lives? Are they learning things about themselves and other people, forming fond memories and relationships? To a certain extent, having more sex gives you more chance to learn, but I think it's a huge mistake to focus so much on the sheer quantity.

[1] yes, I know that article titles are dumb and aren't chosen by the editors, not the authors.

Sorry I must have missed something how do you link Kelloggs the cereal company with circumcision?

https://www.history.com/news/dr-john-kellogg-cereal-wellness...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg#Views_on_s... is a solid tl;dr. He invented cornflakes thinking that that was a food that would inhibit libido and cause people to have less sex.

https://allthingscomedy.com/podcasts/46---live-w-patton-oswa...

Also see Graham crackers, although the circumcision connection is new to me.

we live in the 1960s?

Non of this is true in modern America for young folk

This is the most “i read it on the internet” explanation I’ve ever seen.

After the sexual revolution of that happened 60 years ago and the acceptance of casual sex even on television 40 years ago, OP is going with the “the puritans of the 1600’s are to blame”.

I LOL’ed.

I highly recommend the OP Google his closest dive bar and drink until closing time then go and change those stats personally.

What he said is true in rural America. In the religious areas, which is most of 'em. This is a divided country. You'd be shocked at how seriously people take religion and how it affects views on sex.

Having gone to private Christian schools when I was younger (in suburban America but not quite rural), I'm going to offer the anecdote that religious people are just as sexual as non-religious people.

They just won't admit to it openly or on surveys.

The religious families are extremely small on average /s

I'm sorry, but there are tons of young people from religious or conservative families who wait until marriage to have sex and marry young, and/or don't begin their sexual exploration until well into college. Your anecdotal point notwithstanding. All human beings are equally sexual in terms of their drive and interest, but religion can and does alter psychology and behavior.

There are places where religion is common but isn't taken that seriously, and then there are places were it's common and it is taken very seriously. Sounds like your school was the former and that's fine. It doesn't preclude the existence of the latter.

> I'm sorry, but there are tons of young people from religious or conservative families who wait until marriage to have sex and marry young

The parent poster implied that people were highly bound by their religion; I simply offered a counterexample. I am not saying that abstinence until marriage never happens.

> and/or don't begin their sexual exploration until well into college

This is not relevant since the teaching is abstinence until marriage, not abstinence until college.

> I simply offered a counterexample.

That isn't true. You offered a counterargument.

> This is not relevant since the teaching is abstinence until marriage, not abstinence until college.

A common effect of religious influence is delayed sexual exploration (i.e., later than what's natural given human biological development). The fact that you need this to be explained to you shows that you aren't aware of the phenomenon we're discussing. It's something that's very hard to understand if you haven't lived it.

I've heard of all the kinds of concepts they invent to have sex while saying they didn't. They'll show up as untainted by impure thoughts and behavior in surveys, but they're having it.

One recurring thing in particular: religious men who have sex with men and consider themselves abstinent/faithful to their wives because "it doesn't count."

Well the data goes against your opinion. Kids aren't hanging out in bars and sleeping around like the good ol days. They are online much more.

Also, the US is still super puritan, it is conservative outwardly and it makes up for it by being deviant privately, travel, most countries are much more open about sex. Be it public display of affection, legal sex work, sex education, down to just physical contact from kisses in greetings, and public nudity at the beach, etc.

Americans are, in general, prudes in public and slutty in private. While much of the world is the opposite.

I think you're exaggerating/generalizing quite a bit. Although, I agree about the legal sex work. I'm also thankful there's no public nudity at the beaches here. The people you'd want to see naked won't be, and vice versa.

Yeah OP is spreading FUD and some imagined version of the US rather than the reality.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com