The next best thing to OLED is getting cheaper
arstechnica.com
arstechnica.com
I'm hopeful that QD-OLED will make that a less jarring transition. Mini-LEDs may help modernize the market, but I don't see them making a significant dent in my disappointment.
Step 1: Go to panelook.com (or directly https://www.panelook.com/modelsearch.php?op=resolution if you have a resolution in mind)
Step 2: Find the model number of your desired monitor and put it into your desired search engine (Google works)
Step 3: Buy the monitor WITH THE DRIVER* from AliExpress/Alibaba/TaoBao/eBay/wherever you get Google search results from
Step 4: Wait (???)
Step 5: Design a 3d model and print it, or use acrylic and cut it by hand, or whatever you want. Profit!
* - the display connects to the display driver. The driver is the one with an HDMI/DP/USB-C port.
I’ll just add “Message several sellers and ask for a datasheet and 1pc price+shipping from each one” to Step 3.
My current daily driver is the XB273K (27” 4K 120hz)
I’m kinda surprised people have so many questions about this. I dug up the emails. I paid $176 incl shipping/tax to zjtechhk for a B156ZAN03.4 panel, eDP cable, and a MST9U11Q1 driver board (which has DP, HDMI, and USBC inputs, eDP output, and a ribbon cable to a PCB with 4 buttons to control the OSD)
It was an awesome deal at the time, but I’m pretty sure all these components are obsolete by now.
My panel (and anything from the last decade) uses LED backlights so I would not expect anything above 60V.
Regarding the former, the website does have quite a few filters (though the navigation isn't the best but it works).
For the latter, yes quality can be quite a hit-and-miss when purchasing but prices are very reasonable. There may be a ~10-15% markup compared to a large-scale razor-thin margin monitor being sold at nearly a loss on Amazon, but most products are quite reasonably priced.
Re: the quality, if you're talking about advanced features you may be able to contact the distributors/manufacturers on the website selling them and ask them to make a custom order with more features (eg an extra port) for a slight price, though this varies.
I've used this method for repurposing laptop screens but I've never found it a significant cost saver (even ignoring time/labor) vs standard prebuilt monitors nor is anyone making such a panel exclusively for DYI-ers.
Not saying that you can't get those 8k panels LG uses - but - sending 4k USD to someone over AliExpress feels quite risky even to me. You could probably get good stuff if you put in the effort but if you're earnings decent money from your CS job (I suppose most here are, I'm still a student) then it'll probably be easier to buy OEM/brand name.
I have no idea how to go about making a custom monitor but if it's feasible to solve my problem, I'm willing to learn.
So let's say I want to buy the LM270QQ1-SDA2, should I order that panel from an e-commerce website? Or should I find a monitor with that specific panel? Why is 3d printing needed here? Any article or detailed guide you can point me to?
You don’t need a 3D printer if you have another way to hold the panel (I glued it to a thin laptop stand)
I assume that the use of 3D printer was mentioned to build an enclosure for the panel, like for using a VESA mount?
Thing is, you could glue the panel to something as people have done. I find that detestable because you can't remove the panel non-distructably. A proper enclosure can hold the panel instead of sticking to it.
Prioritized in that order.
For me, I want real estate. At this point I'm looking forward to 8k in a 50-55" TV, good DPI, and 60Hz. Not a twitch gamer, I'm a developer. I use TVs.
Gamers want response time/Hz, decent appearance. They are the prime target of "Monitors"
Then there's the professional editors and the like. They used to be high-end monitors, but I think high-end 8k TVs will serve them as well.
What else is there?
There are no panels that fulfil that at the moment. The nearest option woulb be getting a 4K OLED and then just not using part of the panel but that is hardly ideal.
[0] https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-38gn950-b-gaming-monitor
Going back to 60hz is painful. You’ll see the cursor moving in a rotating square pattern when you’re moving your mouse in a circle. The lag is palpable.
> What else is there?
Well HDR is nice to have.
Things that do stand out to me are input lag (again, usually only from TV-as-monitor with bad settings), bad colour space, and occasionally bad grey-to-grey time. I would take a 60Hz monitor over a 144Hz one if it meant avoiding any one of these issues. In a heartbeat.
I just got an RGB OLED laptop with a gamut significantly wider than Display P3. It's just glorious. UHD content like 4K movies just pop in a way that you have to see in person. It's especially noticeable on military uniforms, where the various shades of dark green are much more distinct than on a typical monitor.
Most also have 14-bit LUTs in hardware.
Therefore, for dev work and dev-related UI graphics, I prefer to work in a calibrated "least common denominator" 8-bit sRGB space, because that's much easier to get right. However, in order to not lose color gradations to calibration, hardware calibration is then preferable.
Windows since Vista can use 16-bit float buffers for the desktop manager. Some applications support this too for all controls and UI elements. Desktop graphics applications support 10-bit, such as Photoshop. Similarly, video playback is generally 10-bit.
In the past, this feature was reserved for the ludicrously expensive "professional" GPUs like the Quadro series, but it has been enabled in software for the mainstream AMD and NVIDIA GPUs. Very recently (just months ago?) my Intel GPU gained 10-bit output capability even in SDR mode.
It definitely works, I used "test pattern" videos and test images in Photoshop, and even dark grey-to-grey gradients are silky smooth on two of my monitors. This includes a 7-year-old Dell monitor!
I’ve used one for 4 years. The only compromise is I have to power it on/off by remote.
OLEDs under 40" aren't TVs and almost all OLED monitors target revenue generating use-cases and are priced to match.
I just mounted mine to the wall, and the back of the desk is about a foot off the wall.
[0] - https://tftcentral.co.uk/news/lg-c2-oled-tv-line-up-for-2022...
When a curved 42"-50" 16:9 OLED comes out, I'll be the first in line.
The real story in monitors this week was the alienware QD-OLED 32" ultrawide (ugh) curved (ugh) for only $1300.
It’s worth mentioning that display scaling was one of many dealbreakers that made desktop Linux unusable for me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28490753
I’m pessimistic about any of this getting fixed in the next few years.
That Alienware monitor is clearly targeted for gaming. Regular 4k is already difficult enough to achieve in AAA games, expanding that to an ultrawide aspect ratio would only make getting acceptable performance harder.
That has since become “micro LED”. Samsung makes a micro LED TV, but it costs six figures, and is only available in something like 80” and above.
When it’s finally affordable it will almost certainly unseat OLED as quality king though. All the upsides with no burn in or peak brightness issues.
It never did. Not on any reputable rumours site and as far I am aware not even on non-reputable ones like wccfTech.
>Afaict it is a rebranding of FALD. We have nearly the same number of dimming zones as we did 5 years ago.
You will need to find me a 500 local dimming zone in a 27" Monitor 5 years ago. I can assure you there is none.
I thought that was microled? Which does all that and seems like a strict upgrade over oled. However, there are currently just about 4 models on the market and starting prices are at 100k.
I ended up with the LG 32UL500-W (https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/lg/32ul500-w), for about $300 US.
My conclusion was that trying to get a higher refresh rate 4k monitor, or even higher resolution, or OLED or anything else, made it 2-6x more expensive. Prices for these features still have a _ways_ to go before they're affordable.
Which reviews almost identically apparently. Great for dev work, fine for games. There still doesn't seem to be anything massively better than these two in a 32" 4k screen, without spending multiples of the price
I do find that the intersection of size, resolution, and brightness is nearly empty. I have a pair of U2720Qs, but would love something more in the 500-600 nits range or even 1000 that isn't the Apple XDR. LG has promised a new 40wp95c for over a year now (and amusingly reannounced it at CES this year, since they didn't ship at all in 2021) which maybe works but at $2000 for a monitor, it's not for everyone (and it came in at a much lower brightness than people expected).
Doesn't blasting more nits at your eyeballs cause more strain? I'm asking this out of ignorance, I have no real idea, a display that's too dim seems likely to cause this as well.
I can definitely see more brightness being great for gaming and media consumption/creation. But for coding? Not sure I'm there, and I'm certainly not looking to spend $2k on a screen, when that can buy a pretty good, much larger TV!
- https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-32ep950-b-oled-monitor
- https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07XTZ45T2 (this one is more of a laptop screen than a monitor)
I’m simplifying here, but essentially no one has figured out how to make OLED panels affordable at a reasonable form factor for monitors yet. The type of panels used in phones (and tablets/laptops) are very different from those used in TVs. LG is making inroads with their 42 C2s, but those will also have a high price and is still way too big for normal monitor use cases.
Smartphone OLED by Samsung or BOE or other maker are too expensive to scale to Computer monitor size.
And burn in. OLED just isn't well suited for computer monitor usage. ( Apart from QD-OLED )
But my wants are probably a bit different than everyone else's: ideally a touch (w/ pen input), high resolution (integer scaling), matte monitor that uses DC dimming.
I've lost hope on such a thing existing (closest thing I have seen is the latest thinkpad yoga x1, gen6 I think, I'd be into buying just the screen, but not really possible). Instead I'm hoping for better e-ink panels which will be even better by eliminating backlight completely.
I suspect others are just sensitive to it (sans concussion) and prefer DC dimming.
Of course the wires have resistance so it would technically “work” as an RC filtered PWM until it overheats.
PWM dimming means turning the LEDs on and off without any smoothing.
But the article is about Mini LED LCD?
I don't know much, to know if mini LEDs dimming in different sections mean PWM, but I suppose they might since it would be probably easier to change the speed of the rapid on&offs of some LEDs rather than the current to dim part of the screen.
For TV, I don't replace it frequently so I hope it lasts a decade.
This is about Mini LED LCD Display, why would burn-in be mentioned? Or you want it to be stated as an advantage?
I'd do anything for 5K, 120Hz, Mini-LED or Micro-LED displays with 10-bit color and HDR. I don't want 4K: 5K has over 77% more logical area.
They don't have to be cheap. I'll pay well. I just want them to exist. I've been waiting over a decade at this point!
but with a 4K screen, you have three options: 1. no scaling and tiny fonts (ugh), 2. fractional scaling (ugh), or 3. 2x scaling and settle for 1080p real estate (ugh)
IMO 5K > 1440p > 4K > 1080p
Have you ever switched from a high refresh rate screens to a 60 Hz screen and noticed a difference? I find this to be similar.
The products basically don't exist.
I can get some rather fantastic 1440p displays -- HDR, 165Hz, DCI-P3 color gamut, and excellent color reproduction (especially when calibrated) for as cheap as $260 on sale. Best thing imaginable? No, but amazing for the price, and objectively better in every measure than the 1440p displays that were $1000+ in 2010.
I'd pay $2000 -- perhaps even $2500 -- each (and I'd buy THREE), for a 5K display that met my requirements.
-- -----
Hardware Unboxed recently made a video complaining that the display market is too heavily driven by gamers wanting a specific, narrow feature set for a rock bottom price.
Display makers have delivered that. However they don't really make much of anything else as a result.
It's a nasty, difficult, low-margin business where almost no one is making money, hence why it's huge volumes of largely the same thing with no major shifts forward.
The bigger issue than low margins is the "4k" marketing and lack of large buyers other than Apple for 5k displays. I think early on in the 4k hype train, there was a bandwidth issue with Display port that required MST for 5k.
Unfortunately 200+PPI are extremely expensive. So 5K panel at 27"+ are partially speaking an Apple only SKUs.
Can you elaborate?
5/4 = 1.25
Since they are both the same aspect ratio (16:9) you can also take the ratio of one linear dimension and square it to get the area ratio.
So:
(5120/3840)^2 = (2880/2160)^2 = 1.777
4k is 4096 x 2160, 5k is 5120 x 2880
There's also a really helpful diagram on that page
(5120 × 2880) / (4096 × 2160) = 1.6666
The way I'm running 4k 27" on Mac is setting scaling to 2x ("looks like 1080p) - which gives the crispest UI, and set scaling appropriately in a small set of applications so that they are not too huge. Just running the browser at 90% default scaling makes things pretty decent. And then maybe reducing the font size by 1pt on one or two text editors.
Wayland does not have those issues and is very nice in my experience although I hear that screen sharing is still a work in progress.
I mean apps that talk directly to the Wayland protocol without XWayland in between, which includes Firefox, Chrome, graphical Emacs, all the Gnome apps.
Even if Wayland were to support fractional scaling: Gtk doesn't support fractional scaling at the toolkit level - integer scaling only [2]. Although it's worth noting Qt and Electron could probably support fractional scaling today. The general philosophy being pushed on the Linux desktop is to do scaling like macOS, but unfortunately it combined that bad philosophy with a worse implementation.
Wayland is a blessing for the Linux desktop, but sadly the free desktop is still waiting to be dragged into the 21st century in many respects.
[1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/lficfe/wayland_fractio...
[2]: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/i...
Your reference [2] is on the topic of Wayland, not GTK. Although the referenced page does contains 2 occurences of "GTK", after reading the context of those occurences, I am unable to find or infer anything in support of your assertion that GTK doesn't support fractional scaling.
Also, your reference [2] implies that there are two scaling factors. Specifically at the top of your ref [2] is a link to another page (issue #34), in which a participant, "Pekka Paalanen, Maintainer", writes,
>Fractional scaling is a whole another topic apart from UI scale. I want to mention it to avoid confusing the two. . . . This is different from UI scale, because it is effectively a fractional buffer scale, without changing the UI size.
The title of your ref [2] is "Add support for fractional scaling", which was written 9 months ago, at which time I was already using fractional scaling (what I mean by fractional scaling and the meaning that is relevant in the current thread of conversation) in released software (namely Gnome 40 on Fedora 34) -- which is another sign that you've incorporated information that is correct in one specific context, but you've erroneously applied it to a different context.
Skipping forward in your ref [2] by 3 sentences, we read, "The current Wayland protocol allows clients to scale their buffers by an integer scale factor" (emphasis mine).
But most of the elements -- particularly 99.9% of the text -- on a modern operating system are stored on the computer as mathematical descriptions of curves. The big exceptions to this are JPEG and PNG files (hence the interest in SVG). (Another exception is "bitmap" fonts, but IIUC the only people looking at bitmap fonts these years are techies who have specially configured their OS or their apps to use bitmap fonts.) These mathetical descriptions have no native resolution: they can be rendered cleanly at any scaling factor.
I use Gnome Settings to tell my computer how large I want things to be, then the text is rendered at that particular scaling factor. There is never any moment in which any framebuffer or rectangular region intended to be displayed on the screen is scaled (again excepting JPGs and PNGs). I know this because I have not been using a HiDPI monitor, so I can see the individual pixels in my monitor. There is no way for the text on my computer to look as good as it does if it were being rendered into a buffer, followed by that buffer's being scaled. I would be able to tell the difference. Unless you want to try to tell me that changing the text size in Terminal.app on a Mac to some size other than the default size causes text to be rendered into a buffer, then the buffer gets scaled before being shown to the user. Or when in Google Chrome, I use the "hamburger menu" to set the "Zoom" of a web site to something other than 100%, that web page is being rendered, then scaled.
Note that Google Chrome and Firefox do their own text rendering: they do not rely on the host OS to do it like most apps do. Consequently, exploring the Zoom setting in Chrome is a good way to experience what scaling on a pure-GTK3 Linux install is like, only that the scaling factor on Linux applies to everything on the screen (including the mouse cursor) whereas in Chrome it only applies to the viewport (minus the mouse cursor).
Again, IMO the people in your reference [2] are talking about a technical detail different from the detail you think they are. Maybe that detail is relevant when you have 2 monitors of different native resolutions and you drag a window from one monitor to another. But that is not the topic of conversation here. Here we are talking about users with a single monitor who because they didn't do enough research before buying the monitor, are faced with a choice of the text's being too big or too small. That can happen on MacOS, but will never happened on a pure-GTK3 Linux install. Pick whatever native resolution, monitor size or pixel density you want: the Linux install can be adjusted so that things are not too big and not too small. (And it takes only 2 seconds to switch sizes: any windows that are open when you switch automatically adapt.) Specifically, on a monitor with 1680 horizontal pixels, Gnome Settings is giving me the following choices for the scaling factor: 100%, 125%, 150%, 175%, 200%. My guess is that if my monitor had more horizontal pixels, I would get more choices.
System Preferences on a Mac (specifically the Display ("Displays"?) pane) also gives you some choices that make everything bigger or smaller, but if you don't choose the native resolution of the display, everything is very blurry -- which does not happen on a pure-GTK3 Linux install.
ADDED. you have to run the following command (once per install) to activate the "Scale" line in the Display pane of Gnome Settings:
gsettings set org.gnome.mutter experimental-features "['scale-monitor-framebuffer']"> System Preferences on a Mac (specifically the Display ("Displays"?) pane) also gives you some choices that make everything bigger or smaller, but if you don't choose the native resolution of the display, everything is very blurry -- which does not happen on a pure-GTK3 Linux install.
It absolutely does. You may not see it, but Wayland and Gtk as of 2022 are not able to do technically anything else here than scaling. This is a known issue, and the reason why I linked that Wayland fractional scaling thing - it is not possible on regular desktop Linux (it is on Android/ChromeOS) to get adequately sized, rendered for size output on your 27" 4K screen or 13" 1080p screen.
https://bjango.com/articles/macexternaldisplays/
TLDR: use monitors that are around 110 or 220 PPI. The 27" 4K is right in the middle at 163 PPI.
I'd gladly take a monitor like this at 2× the resolution of course (so 5K), but again, if I could choose, not at 27" but at 30".
At least when i upscale older (or very demanding) games from 640x480 or 1280x720 they look crisp enough instead of the blurry mess that was before a few years when this became possible outside of emulation.
But i bought it because of the VA panel, 165Hz refresh rate and flat surface since i couldn't find any smaller monitor with those characteristics. So if that next-best-thing-to-OLED tech is actually good, i'll most likely get one since i doubt i'll see a real OLED PC monitor in not-gargantuan sizes.
It's even faster if you let it manage its own pixels and only update parts of the screen that need to be redrawn. Can't play videos like that but scrolling a spreadsheet becomes much faster.
Have you actually tried? Do you have a video of this? Because as far as I know, and I actually work with electrophoretics, physics limits the speed of the ink. I hope you're not confusing something like A2 mode with actual display updates.
I don't understand what you mean by "poor gamut". Gamut of grayscale?
Even Samsung QNED is at leat 3-4 years out. MicroLED is definitely further out than QNED.