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Comment by dcow | Hacker News Reader

I think the developer made a very clear case as to why they do not have a simple copycat experience. Please read the essay.

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No, it's not a clear case. That's what the discussion is about. It's overemphasizing the differing features, and Apple seems to also think so. What you and OP think is evidently not what Apple and many other thinks. Please at least attempt to understand another perspective.

But there’s nothing illegal per se about duplicating the gameplay of Wordle. It should only be an issue when, say, assets are stolen, or if the developers use the similarity to Wordle to trick users into making in-app purchases.

Copying apps isn't illegal, but it's annoying and banning the practice seems like a good policy. I think the problem boils down to two things:

1. Apple doesn't actually have a "no copycat apps" policy, instead its an unwritten and inconsistently enforced rule

2. In this case, providing a Swedish version of the game is actually good for users and arguably should be encouraged

> Apple doesn't actually have a "no copycat apps" policy

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#cop...:

4.1 Copycats

Come up with your own ideas. We know you have them, so make yours come to life. Don’t simply copy the latest popular app on the App Store, or make some minor changes to another app’s name or UI and pass it off as your own. In addition to risking an intellectual property infringement claim, it makes the App Store harder to navigate and just isn’t fair to your fellow developers.

I stand corrected. I guess the problem for this dev was that the reviewer cited copyright, which doesn't apply here, instead of referencing the appropriate rule

Apple cited rejection by copycat, not rejection by copycat due to legality. I don't think the legality argument has any relevance here. I for sure would agree with that if so.

It can’t be a copy if it offers distinct features, which the OP lays out factually. It’s not arguable. It’s a fact that OPs game supports languages that the original web app doesn’t. That alone even ignoring the other distinctions should indicate that it is not a clone. You can’t just say “that feature doesn't matter to me because I don’t speak Swedish so it doesn't exist”. You’re deliberately ignoring reality and it’s frankly kinda “racist”. Swedish people can’t play Wordle in their language on iOS because it would be a cheap knockoff of an English website and somehow detract from your appstore browsing and general mobile platform experience? Jeeze…

Unfortunately, they're obviously not distinct enough in Apple's eyes. Also, Swedish or any nationality is not a race, I would drop that train of thought altogether.

We have no indication of the many, many other copycat apps that were let through may also already support Swedish. So if that low hanging fruit is covered, scratch that as a distinct feature...

That’s why I put it in quotes. Point is you cannot categorically exclude an entire population of people from an experience.

I don't care what Apple or you think. I’m calling both you out for being insensitive or at best oblivious douchbags and telling you you’re wrong. You are free to disagree but your comment is going dangerously grey so citation needed on your assumption about how many others agree with you.

The developer's post assumes that those other clones won't be removed. It also assumes that every review process is exactly the same. We only know one side of the story here and it's full of assumptions and conjecture.

That highlights another problem with the process- the complete lack of transparency. Apple could be more forthcoming about the review process, yet they aren’t.

Do they need to be? They told the developer why it wasn't allowed - it violates the Copycat clause of the ToS. At that point, the developer is just attempting to make minimal changes to differentiate it enough to bypass that restriction and then resubmitting over and over.

I don't think anyone is under the illusion that this isn't a Wordle copycat. Even the author knows it.

It doesn't allow the developer any actionable feedback. They could have included screenshots highlighting the exact ways this app is a copycat. What if the developer changed the UX differently- would it then no longer be a copycat? It also downplays the which the app isn't a copycat, namely that it uses a different language. As it stands, just calling something a copycat is not substantiative, you actually need to provide justification. See Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co.

What actionable feedback could there be? The author is copying Wordle. The very nature of the project is to copy a copyrighted application/website.

Is the inherent game mechanic being the same the problem, or could that be alleviated if the screens looked more distinct? And it is in a different language, after all.

Are Wordle's mechanics even copyrighted?

Yes. Apparently, it was one of the first things the NY Times did when they purchased it.

Edit: It was trademarked only. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30378491

In other languages as well? And then why isn't the Times DMCA'ing all of the more straightforward English Wordle clones out there right now?

Based on the screenshots, it also looks like this whole app rejection process took place prior to the NYT purchase.

I would imagine that it's unique to Wordle right now because of recency. There were probably a deluge of Wordle-clones that were submitted to the App Store recently to capitalize and take advantage of both the buzz and the name.

> Are Wordle's mechanics even copyrighted?

My understanding of intellectual property is that not only are the game mechanics not copyrighted, they aren’t even copyrightable. The code and assets that are used to implement the game mechanics are automatically protected by copyright but not the gameplay itself.

Bringing copyright into this discussion is an irrelevant distraction.

Edit: as both Apple and the NY Times are based in the US, I thought I’d double-check what the US legal situation is (in case American rules differ from the Berne convention). It turns out there’s a whole Wikipedia article dedicated to this subject¹:

> There is a long established Copyright principle called the idea–expression distinction, where Copyright is meant to protect a creator’s unique expression, without giving anyone a monopoly on a broader idea. The US Copyright Office specifically states that “Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game.”

Also: A Stack Exchange answer² provided a reference for the quotation cited in the Wikipedia article. The original US Copyright Office URL is now a 404 but here’s the archived version of their article: https://web.archive.org/web/20160403041628/http://www.copyri...

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protecti...

² https://law.stackexchange.com/a/4653

As the writer of the post, I would love to hear Apple's side of the story. The reason I didn't include more quotes from Apple was that they never cited anything other than "resembles Wordle" and "leverages Wordle" in their replies. But clearly, given that they don't apply these rules when it comes to other apps (such as Scrabble, Minesweeper, Tetris, etc.), there is something else going on.

With respect, you don't know that they aren't attempting to take action on those other apps. Wordle may be a recent copyright issue since NYT has purchased the original. It seems like their rules do apply to these other apps but they just haven't gotten the attention that Wordle has so there's less bias towards those.

WHat does "attempting to take action on those other apps" mean? Apple still lists them on the app store for download.

Thankfully (IMO), you can't patent game ideas. There's no legal action NYT can take (and expect to win) to shut down any games that build on the same game rules.

However, even if you disagree with me, and think that there should be no app implementing Wordle-style gameplay on App Store. What's your opinion on Minesweeper, Tetris, or Tic-tac-toe? Should no iOS versions of those games exist? Remember that Apple only ever refers to the original Wordle website in their rejections and never even acknowledges the existence of Wordle clones.

What about Scrabble? If they were applying their rules consistently they would surely kick out Words With Friends, but what about Wordfeud? Should they kick out Wordfeud because Scrabble implementations already existed on the web?

A healthy and well-founded assumption given their track record of mishandling copycats in other app categories that are far more scammy and actively steal people's money.

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