I’ve always considered a CC chargeback the tool of last resort, but companies are more and more slamming doors and dodging responsibility to the point where that tool has to be used all the time now.
I’ve always considered a CC chargeback the tool of last resort, but companies are more and more slamming doors and dodging responsibility to the point where that tool has to be used all the time now.
It's also weird to me, for example I bought six items from Leatherman (some multitools plus accessories) and one of them showed up with some damage. No worries, Leatherman supports their product with a 25 year warranty so I just mail it back for a repair.
There was a whole saga about Leatherman refusing via email and my bank charging back for the entire order (I asked for just the tool that Leatherman refused to repair, the bank was "Nah, we're just gonna do it all, we have an email where the merchant refused to honor a warranty, they have no leverage.")
It's bizarre to me, because a relatively minor repair had to be cheaper than giving me three multitools and six accessories for negative dollars (since the bank tosses fees on top of the chargeback). The companies have no incentive and know they're going to lose (see all the articles complaining about 'friendly fraud' to reference chargebacks) yet they do it.
Perhaps they over index on being paranoid that the customer wants to defraud them via chargeback, which in turn increases the odds a chargeback happens since the disgruntled customer feels they were ripped off?
From the bank's perspective, this makes sense: better you keep your money with the bank than it flow out to the vendor.
From where I'm sitting (business owner who handles my own customer support), this seems like a classic case of the business's incentives not aligning with the employee's.
Minor complaints are often much harder to deal with (and care about) than major ones, and far more likely to explode into something nasty. Couple that with the fact that the support rep doesn't see a cent of that transaction, and I can see why they would want to shut down the interaction ASAP.
I'm surprised that you have to do your own customer support, though. I had always assumed that Crowd Supply would take care of that.
I think Crowd Supply handle certain support issues specific to orders through their platform (as does Amazon), but there's still technical information that people need/want and so I help where I can.
For every person that does a chargeback, 10 of them don't know or don't bother. A lot of companies & services rely on that.
Of course they'd have to come to my home jurisdiction and all that. While in theory if they prevailed I think they'd get triple damages, they also run the risk of losing and throwing away even more money and also angering Visa who considers my bank's ruling in my favor to be final. There were a few companies that had the genius idea to go to small claims and Visa got upset enough that those companies can no longer take credit cards.
In most cases it is better for the merchant just to eat it and write it off as a loss.
Not trying to excuse anything, just explain why some people are getting crappy used products (sloppy returns QA) or aggressive customer services denying consumer rights (burnt retailer). Ultimately it's all on the retailer, but it's also a cost we'll end up bearing.
Criminals ruin things for everyone.
There are tons more. The basic philosophy is that they use a bunch of social engineering techniques that are specific to companies and use them to get refund for people and then take a cut (usually 20-35%). The likely picked up these techniques through trial and error or from other people running similar services. Their most common targets are amazon, PayPal, almost all electronics retailers, tons of clothing companies, Walmart, target, Costco, etc.
what do you think the police are for? the FBI also investigates wire fraud cases. unfortunately both do not have enough resources to investigate $200 frauds. Hell, in some jurisdictions they don't even bother with $900 thefts.
General beatdowns. Detectives are what you're thinking of. Most people want detectives, few people want harassment and fines (or death) over nothing more than some cop's power trip or petty things (like jay walking when it blocks no traffic and is completely safe).
Granted, this perspective is colored by American policing. I know some other countries have it better.
But I'm not sure it's good to stop expecting the police to deal with this. That sort of surrender to criminality would be a dark step for humanity.
Five or more years ago I bought a kettle from Amazon and two months later it starts leaking. Turns out it's a design flaw and a lot of reviews on the kettle mentioned the same issue. I sent a support ticket and they refunded me immediately and told me I could keep the kettle.
Then last year I ordered a knife on Amazon. A month later I receive a water flosser...
I contact support (which is now next to impossible to find in the UI) and they tell me they can't refund me unless I send the item back and they also won't be sending me my actual purchase. This was during lockdown and as I do not own a printer I was not able to print out the return slip. They also refused to come and pick it up. I got nothing, not even a "we're sorry" coupon; my account is over 20 years old.
So we went from automatic refund + you get to keep the item for an issue that was not their fault to them completely fucking up my order and then making me go through hoops, spend me own money to send their mistake back to them.
The good news is that there are a lot of different and competitive online retailers around these days, and a lot of shops are now online due to Covid. So it was not very difficult for me to stop using Amazon altogether.
First time in like 10 years I’ve had to contact support and was happy!
If you receive something in the mail by accident, you are under no obligation to return it. I would have issued a chargeback given that you never received the item you paid for.
> By law, companies can’t send unordered merchandise to you, then demand payment. That means you never have to pay for things you get but didn’t order. You also don’t have to return unordered merchandise. You’re legally entitled to keep it as a free gift.
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-do-if-youre-bille...
> “All open orders were canceled, I just could access digital content purchased in the account. I had over $100 in my gift card balance and Amazon agreed to send me the refund, I received a check in my mailbox after 1 week,” wrote Do, who calculated that his rate of return for Amazon is about 17% — ordering 104 items and returning 18.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/if-youre-returning-a-lot-o...
Amazon has many faults but returns have always worked well for me.
I guess their systems aren't quite as smooth here. I'd still be quite annoyed to have to go to UPS in my free time to return something I never ordered.
I bought some electronics, turned out it was a scammy company. After six weeks, nothing shipped, merchant agreed to refund me. Asked card company (Cash/Square/Block) for a chargeback. Week later merchant ships something, FedEx fails to deliver and it gets returned to merchant.
3 months later Square asks me for all documentation. I give it to them. They say I can't have a refund as the package was delivered. I tell them "yes, delivered back to the merchant". They say "sorry, our policy is that if it was delivered somewhere then we won't do a chargeback. I know that's not the outcome you wanted." Then they terminated my account. LOL
I've had to do chargebacks with two different banks and both were painless even though something was delivered.
But at least the other time a merchant pushed back on a charge back, it worked out better. A South American airline charged me for a flight between two cities in a continent I had never even been to in my life. They used as proof a record that simply showed the flight did actually fly. My bank sided with me.
Long story short, don't threaten lawsuits. Just file the suit.
And as someone who litigates for shits and giggles, it can be pretty expensive in Small Claims, about $400 often just to file and do service on the defendant. And some courts won't accept suits that are less than the filing fee. And a lot of the time you can't get back your costs from the defendant either. And.. I'm not sure you can sue the bank for not charging back. I guess the correct process is to sue the merchant for never delivering the merch.
No. AMEX heavily sides with AMEX against merchants. AMEX, via chargeback penalties, turns a net profit every time a customer complaint is filed. They aren't being nice out of the goodness of their hearts. They are leveraging their market dominance to extract penalty money from users. Just be happy that we customers are on the winning side ... for now.
Last month a fan failed on my 2080 Ti, which I bought in 2018, I contacted the retailer and they said they've started to replace fans on GPU's themselves because of the shortage situation. Great, works for me.
A week later I got an email saying they're replacing it with a 3080. Slight upgrade at no additional cost.
But while this is customer friendly, it completely forgoes the idea of individually judging returns! So now retailers are looking at the absolute amount of money they're losing to returns, and attempting to optimize that. They can't discourage returns outright (by changing their policy) because that would break customer expectations, and it would be extremely hard to inspect/adjudicate returns better because that would require skilled workers, so all they can do is adjust the false positive/false negative ratio.
Another black box approach is the use of surveillance databases like Retail Equation, to track whether an individual has made "too many" returns based on the amount they've spent - a totally irrelevant and unjust metric when you think about it. It also could be "just you" due to getting tripped by these databases, perhaps even because of your first chargeback. Who would know?
The "unfixable" waste also ties into the hollowing out of other business departments too. Many food items are not packed very well and are put in the same box without regards to density, so items arrived dented, crushed, or destroyed. Rather than the return process feed that failure back to the packing department, it's just treated as another "no fault" return. So now as a customer I've just got to accept that many times the items I've ordered are going to arrive damaged, and meanwhile I'm sure I'm building up a record in their surveillance database as a less profitable customer - when it all stems from their mistake.
I’ve never had a good AirBNB experience. I’d never miss them if they went away.
I assumed it would be an easy refund because it wasn't even safe to eat, so I sent them a photo and... they adamantly refused?
Charged that back and deleted the app. I was kind of flabbergasted.
Returning it would take me easily 30 minutes of work, so I decided to keep it until they start complaining.
Two weeks later, our neighbor came back into town and brought us the two original suitcases that we never received.
Trying to be honest, we started a return process. But we could not get them to understand that we didn’t want a refund. We were returning a duplicate. Since either way we were going to have “free” luggage, we just kept both.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Now I have a cat-proof recycling bin.
Day 1: Left TX
Day 2: In transit in NM
Day 3: Arrived in Tracy,CA
Day 11: Left Tracy and arrived in destination city
Day 14: Left destination city
Day 15: In transit in southern OR
Day 18: In transit in northern OR
It hasn't been seen since. When I contacted FedEx, their investigation showed that the truck it was on was currently sitting empty in WY. No explanation for why it sat so long in Tracy, why it left the destination, or where it ended up.So the seller shipped a replacement.
Day 1: Left TX
Day 2: In transit in TX
Day 6: Arrived in Tracy
Day 7: Left Tracy
Day 11: Left Tracy, again
Day 12: Left Tracy, yet again
Day 13: Arrived in destination city
Day 15: DeliveredWhen this happens to me, I tell the retailer that if they want to schedule a pickup at my address, I'll happily hand it to the driver, but I'm not going out of my way to fix their mistake.
Overall across the economy most fraud is committed on the way down, not the way up. The same happens as economic bubbles collapse and financial entities scramble for some way to inflate the books.
This makes no sense. Amazon has famously good customer service. I don't deal with walmart often so I don't have an opinion either way. Finally, you bemoan aliexpress, which is comprised of independent sellers, but complain how they're destroying "independent retailers"?
That is, after I received the product with over 4 months delay (after which I didn't need it anymore - hence trying to return it.)
I'm not sure if it's because the German Samsung store might just be too incompetent though.
It's nothing like doing a chargeback to a local independent coffee-shop who double-charged you and refuses to refund the duplicate charge.