Hacker News Reader

Comment by otikik | Hacker News Reader

I see how it might look like that, but you are missing a critical point.

Everyone is different. What comes naturally to some doesn't come naturally to others.

For a lot of people (me included) keeping in touch with others doesn't come "naturally". We miss contact, and yet we sheldom establish it. There are many reasons for this: poor time management skills, low self-esteem, simple lack of practice, etc. In any case, it takes effort to break out of it.

Try to think about something that others do, and that you would like to do, but is difficult for you. Exercise, learn a new language, go to bed earlier, eat more healthily... whatever. This might give you a perspective of what it is like to have this "friction".

I see what this person is doing as a way to remove the friction and create a new habit. I have no doubt that when "they gets the thing rolling" with someone it will gradually easy to keep engaged without the machine "dictating" anything.

View on HN

> We miss contact, and yet we sheldom establish it.

That's me.

that's why my friends are the ones who contact me.

they are my reminder.

if I start contacting them now, they would think I am going to die soon.

> I see what this person is doing as a way to remove the friction and create a new habit

It doesn't work like that though.

It's not like using an alarm to wake up at a certain hour and suddenly you realize your sleep cycle has adapted, what this person is doing is more like a grocery list, you'll never stop needing one, if you needed one in the first place.

Moreover, the simple fact that people are in different lists and lists have to be maintained and updated, it makes it more like a job than a habit.

The reality check is that people who do proactively contact others need to put effort into it. And if you are not willing to reciprocate, eventually they figure out it is not fair to them. They tend to eventually gravitate toward those that do put effort into it too.

I have a friend like that. Whenever we meet we have fun, but she never contacts me. She tells me that's just how she is with everyone, and that she really likes hanging out, she just doesn't initiate, which is fair, but it still feels like she doesn't value me, no matter how much I logically know otherwise.

These days I try to override the feeling and initiate first, because I know that she really does want to hang out, but the feeling is deeply ingrained and hard to shake.

What I'm basically saying is that maybe you should try a bit more, because this way has certainly lost you a few friends over the years. Maybe it works for you, though, no judgment.

You are rationalizing your selfishness and laziness. Relationships are a two-way street.

I think you deserve an answer, even if people are downvoting you:

I guess you are not completely aware that you just said that my friends are stupid because they accept to be mistreated by someone who's selfish an lazy.

But guess what, friendship in not only a two way street, it's also usually a non overlapping set of different personalities.

A friend is that person that has those qualities you miss, that kinda completes you, and vice versa.

And is that person that accepts you for being you, exactly you, not some imaginary version of you.

What I miss in something, I compensate with something else that my friends miss.

Easy as that.

Rest assured that if they wanted me to call them more, they'd tell me.

p.s. If you don't accept as a friend someone who doesn't call you as often as you do, you have a simple choice: find people like you.

My friends don't mind and after almost 30 years, I don't think they will suddenly start.

I called my best friend this January, because I hadn't spoken to him in months or years.

I decided to do it. It didn't come naturally.

He was happy I called.

I don't know next time we'll call because none of us are the kind who does call for no good reason (maybe a reason why we like each other ; - )

Then why do they frame connection in terms of a habit that yields "unlimited upside" and prevents you from missing out on opportunities?

You are absolutely right that people are different, but this person comes across a little transactional and an exemplar of the Zuckerborg meme.

Why is it wrong to see a good friendship as very valuable?

Because valuing close friends through the lens of what personal gain they may yield is more than a little sociopathic?

Why? Happiness and valuable shared experiences are also gains.

What about my alcoholic friend I've known for 20 years that is destroying his life and lashing out at me right now because he is sick? Or my heavily depressed friend of 30 years who I sat with on the weekend? Not everything is about extracting maximum personal happiness. Friendship can also be about service.

If you care about these people then presumably it does make you happier in the long term to let them know that you care about them. Especially if it's not that pleasant in the moment I imagine having a system to remind you could be helpful.

So we should become friends with people we don't value? Like random people on the street? It's a good idea, but would be exhausting.

At no point does he talk about making everyone into a deep friend. I guess english language is just incapable of explaining it due to not enough words to express the spectrum?

Do note that he has different "frequency" categories (which don't have to map to "type of friendship" same way even in that one database!).

Some are just people he is interested in meeting, maybe keeping in light contact over time. Some more often. Some so often that he actually pushes his schedule to ensure regular time for meetings, something that can be ridiculously hard even without crippling anxiety.

Oh actually I really agree with you and the OP. I was responding more to the parent post.

I think it's ok to just partition our lives into friends we value -- and largely ignore others. We'd be insane otherwise. So long as we remember to keep a general humanistic value for the man (or woman or trans or define-it-yourself) on the street...

As I get older I find it hard to even KEEP UP with normal friends flung far away and separated by the distance of time. Not everyone will agree with the OP, but I'm always impressed with old friends from 20 years ago that still keep contact.

Something to consider.

Considering my own issues, this system makes me envious, specifically because of how hard it is to ensure to call and talk or message etc.

That said, the system I guess shows dual-use case of CRM technology ;)

A CRM for long lost friends would be handy...

> and miss out on a ton of fun and opportunities.

This is the actual sentence you are referring to and it seems omitting the "ton of fun" part is a bit disingenuous as it clearly stands against this perceived technocratic and opportunistic use of people. The word "opportunity" is not used any other time in the article, by the way.

The kind of person who needs a process like that would most likely also need a very strong push to follow through with it. Chances are cosplaying entrepreneur lingo is the nth iteration in a long line of attempts to convince themselves, new year's resolutions and the like, with all of the more dignified approaches having utterly failed.

I'm in the same boats, both of them: the author's, failing to keep in touch and being aware of it, and yours, being intuitively revulsed by the systematic approach. I even refuse taking part in that weird ritual of Facebook birthday wishes, because I consider it somewhat dishonest to congratulate when I didn't remember myself.

I think you might be overblowing things. The quotes are:

> Staying in touch [...] require[s] little effort, time and resources but has an unlimited upside

In this case the "unlimited upside" is set in contraposition to the amount of effort it requires. It might not exactly true (it's not "unlimited") but it's "big".

> Unfortunately, for most people (me included) this isn’t something that happens naturally. So unless you have a solid system, chances are high that you won’t reach out to people regularly and miss out on a ton of fun and opportunities.

What puts it in context for me is that first one in the second quote: this article is addressing people with difficulties keeping in touch. If you're not that, the article is not for you, and at's ok.

Once that's clear, the other phrases read to me like motivational speech - for others and for the author themselves.

If the article was about weight lifting, it would start by talking about the health benefits it can bring.

A lot of friendships are (mutually) beneficial. Others are more neutral, and yes, some are pernicious. But you are not going to get people motivated to maintain them or make new ones if you lead with that. That'd be starting the weight lifting article by listing all the different injuries you can get.

> Zuckerborg meme.

I think you might be showing a lack of empathy here.

I've seen a comedian interview saying that friendship wasn't a natural sense, and with age he had to train himself a bit too maintain things. We all have various levels and have to find our ways to improve.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com