Ask HN: Do you consider ageism in tech to be a bad thing/unjustified?Why?

This is fun. So much to unpack.

Honestly if I'm still an employee by the time I'm 35/40, then I messed up somewhere.

That's sort of admirable as an ambition for a founder, but I don't think you've thought about your attitude to age from the perspective of your employees. Have they messed up working for you if they're over 35? Does your attitude mean that any one over 30 should consider working for your company as a temporary gig that they won't stay in for more than a few years? That could have a seriously adverse impact on your ability to hire senior devs.

Your memory certainly isn't going to improve with time

The basis of my job isn't "remembering stuff". Google augments that ability very well. My skills are applying my experience and combining it with knowledge. I have forgotten loads, but the important stuff tends to stick.

You've most likely got less stamina too.

This is definitely true, but I also have 25 years experience of making sure I do things in the laziest way possible. I automate loads of things. I document everything. I don't really need stamina, and as a bonus (for me and the company) everything ticks along nicely when I'm asleep. Assuming the outcomes are the same, would you rather run a company where the youthful devs need to run around like their hair is on fire, or one where the sleepy old dev does very little work? For the sake of argument, imagine how well things carry on if the devs leave.

Statistically speaking you're less likely to change your mind on any subject

In my experience younger devs tend to think they're right more often than older devs, and find it harder to see the other side of an argument. I think it's likely not to be directly age-related though. It's more a matter of seeing how often you're wrong, and that takes time.

Now, get off my lawn.

Experience? How old are you? In the normal case the very common belief to be vastly smarter than your parents should wane shortly after puberty.

The case of IBM the problem is probably completely different. You cannot rejuvenate a corporation by employing younger people. Didn't follow the link because I can imagine the ego.

Aging is certainly a degenerative process, but there are special cookies in every age group. Also, insecurity cannot be cured by looking at statistics. A common mistake.

Maybe you should talk to a few greybeards before you decide they can't hack it? I think you'd be surprised by just how much benefit decades of experience in the field can bring. Also, raising a family and saving enough for retirement are more expensive than you might think, and people live a long time nowadays...

I'm retiring in 3 months. I'll miss the work and people, won't miss the stress and hours.

During my career, I've repaired mainframes and graphics systems. I've managed Unix systems for over 25 years. SysVr4 on NCR frames, AIX systems, Sun Systems and now a mixed environment of Linux and AIX. I think I'm reasonable good at it, at least no ones complained.

I've worked in a variety of industries, finance, food service, distribution. I've work at a PAAS startup that successfully exited. I know the business world better then when I started and can relate to business employees a lot better than I did when I was younger. I've also learned how to coax a problem out of a non IT employee, especially when they really can't describe the problem.

I've found as I got older, I mellowed a bit, I don't rush to judgement as fast, and I've learned to look at a problem and try to understand it before I try to fix it. I've also got a long history of troubleshooting to lean on when I need it. If I did something wrong or screwed up, I admitted it and apologize. If I didn't understand something, I also admitted it and asked for help. I can also use Google with the best of them. I've found out that though the joints are creaking a bit, I have no problems keeping up.

I believe that I've given fair work to whatever company I worked for, for the compensation they gave me. Consider I'm still employed in the field after so long, I have to believe it's so.

I've also learned not to put anything in writing where it can be used against me in the future. I would never post this question on such an emotional and inflammatory topic. I really hope no one knows your real id, otherwise this could bite you in the future.

I also hope you keep this someplace and read it when you are in the middle of your career. I think you will be dismayed at how callous you were.

Good luck.

> In most cases you're going to be out of touch with young people(whether customers or employees), I think it's +/- inevitable and it's going to happen to me too at some point, that's just the circle of life.

Why are you worried that old employees are out of touch with young people, but you are not worried that young employees are going to be out of touch with old people?

Unless you have made it into "management" or "entrepreneurship", what you state is true.

I am going through the same phase, I am not up to date with the current trends not am I in management. However, I have come to realise that as much as things change a lot of things remain the same.

You may not be able to code better or faster but with maturity your ability to get a bird's eye view of things improve, your ability to grasp or judge the +/- of complex/new software/systems increases.

Unfortunately, it is not very easy to come across places that appreciate these, until disaster strikes.

And let that not affect your growth, keep learning new things, stop running after shiny new frameworks and focus on fundamentals. That is where your strength might lie, eventually you might find yourself in a good position.

it's generalizing rather than looking at the individual characteristics.

If someone cant learn fast and that's an in important requirement to a position don't hire them.

But if the idea is statistically speaking old people don't learn fast so I am going to generalize and conclude I can't hire "old" people，that's bad and also is missing out.

This is the same idea behind racism, sexism, ... Assuming that because on average something is true so an individual coming to you will be judged first on an average of the group you see them in, above their Individual characteristics

How is this even a question? Hiring someone is hiring someone to do a job. If that someone can do the job then he should be hirable/hired no matter the age, gender, race etc ...

Sounds like you’re ready to head a fortune 50 company.

you're an asshole

I'm 61 with 40+ years experience in software development. I freelance now but I've spent plenty of time as an employee. If I didn't have to listen to this kind of nonsense from my own kids (and have a chuckle at their immaturity) I would be offended. But age has taught me to have patience with the young and to remind myself that I had thoughts like this when I was in my 20s.

If you're still an employee at 35-40 you have a job. If you think you messed up, ok, but if you think everyone who is an employee at that age messed up you've got unrealistic ideas. Not everyone wants to call themselves a founder. Retirement age in the US is 67-72, not 40. We're not all going to be Mark Zuckerberg or crypto billionaires.

The ability to remember and recall things degrades over time, but older people also have more experience to call on. And it happens to people at different times and rates. I sometimes have trouble recalling things from the past -- it actually feels like there's too much to search through. I don't have problems with short-term memory or getting my work done. I have learned over time how to organize my work, take notes, keep track of things, look things up, and ask other people for help.

There's no inherent reason older people are "going to be out of touch with young people." Differences in fashion and music and so on are superficial. I could just as easily say young people are out of touch with (and often dismissive) of their elders, who have more experience. Who is going to teach and mentor the young people if not us older people?

Most of us experience more health problems as we age. On the other hand young people have more car accidents, have more drinking and drug problems. Some of that gets reflected in higher car insurance rates for younger people (especially men), and unmarried people, because of actuarial statistics.

https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-teen-dri...

https://drugabusestatistics.org

Thanks to modern medicine people live longer and healthier lives. My own life expectancy today is significantly higher than it was when I was born.

Osteoarthritis is not just a disease of old age. Obesity, sedentary lifestyle, and injuries can cause it as well. I've been typing for 40+ years with no carpal tunnel or arthritis. I don't type eight hours a day anymore because my experience as a software developer taught me a few decades ago that typing eight hours a day is less effective than thinking and researching and planning so I only have to type for an hour or two a day. I have also long since mastered the tools of programming, so I'm doing a lot less typing today than when I was in my 20s.

The last time I worked with someone who suffered from carpal tunnel it was a guy in his early 30s. He hurt his wrists gaming, an affliction of the young in my experience.

What statistics inform you that older people are less likely to change their mind on any subject? Young people can be just as sure they're right, with the added problem of not knowing when they're wrong. If failing memory is a problem of the old, the Dunning-Kruger effect is a problem of the young.

What IBM did is almost certainly against the law. If they let someone go because they simply can't do their job because of physical or mental health reasons, that's probably justifiable. But to push older people out because they cost more and aren't willing to work twelve hours a day for pizza and beer, so they can exploit young people with less experience and fewer family/social commitments is simply wrong. If you are OK with an employer exploiting young people and getting rid of the more experienced people who could mentor and guide a career and know how to push back against companies that discriminate, good luck with that.

Age comes for all of us. At some point you realize you aren't all that special and don't know as much as you think you do, and grow some humility and respect for other people. That takes time. And when you get there you will probably react to stories like IBM's layoffs, and posts like yours, the same way I react at my age.

Well said.

Ah, such innocence.

tl;dr "Don't Trust Anyone Over 30" White T Cotton T-Shirt (https://www.amazon.com/CafePress-Trust-Anyone-Cotton-T-Shirt...)

>>> And I can't help but think that it kind of make sense to me? Honestly if I'm still an employee by the time I'm 35/40, then I messed up somewhere.

Apparently, by your own logic, in a few years no company will hire you as an employee. In fact, you won't be hired because you're not a good "culture fit" (aka too old).

>>> Your memory certainly isn't going to improve with time, it can only get worst AFAIK, sames for the number of neurons, your brain elasticity, your capacity to learn new stuff. For instance I can honestly say that my dad learned less in the past 12 years than I learned in the past 12-24 months, even when he puts his mind to it just doesn't work that well anymore.

My memory is greatly enhanced with Google. But my understanding comes with time and experience. Lets suppose you work in robotics, such as with a spiffy new area like self-driving electric cars. Do you understand how to interpret a Lidar point cloud? I do. Do you understand SLAM? I do. How about neural nets? I do. Up to speed on ROS? I am. Know how to handle the jerk derivative (no joke). I do. Can you compute the fourier transform of the vehicle dynamics? I can. Any clue about Denavit-Hartenberg matrix transformations? I have. How's your battery technology knowledge? Know the difference between NMC, NCA, and LFP? I do. How about the tradeoff of alternating current (AC) induction motors versus permanent-magnet direct current (DC) motors? Or perhaps knowing something about the tire composition for driving needs? What about autopilot... surely you know the neural nets and their interactions with the dynamics of the car. Do you know how use encryption to secure an over-the-air update? Do you know how to update the FPGA? Or even write a update for the car because you clearly know about the CAN bus protocol... I know these things. I'll admit it took me more than 12-24 months. Age has its limitations.

>>> In most cases you're going to be out of touch with young people(whether customers or employees), I think it's +/- inevitable and it's going to happen to me too at some point, that's just the circle of life.

Oh MY, a Lion King reference! SO 2019! Just what the 20-somethings are quoting on TikTok! Be sure to buy the T-shirt above.

Oh, yeah, and self-driving electric cars are SO yesterday. How could I be so out of touch? I should be in the Metaverse. I guess I need to get past my chapter 7 bookmark in Physically Based Rendering (https://www.pbrt.org/). That book, by the way, is an excellent example of Knuth's Literate Programming... but that was before your time.

>>> Now this may come off as really evil, but you're also more likely to get sick or hurt yourself. Do I want to have carpal tunnel syndrome or osteoarthritis from typing 8 hours a day for the last 40 years? Not really...

Lets see. I'm 68. I have been sick enough to stay in bed for a day once in the last 25 years. I type all day but don't have carpal tunnel. My neighbor is 40, has had back surgery and cannot work. My one friend had a stroke at 38 and cannot work. My 27 year old friend just got covid and seems to have lasting heart problems. My friend from high school died at 19. But I do wear glasses so I want a vision plan. Hey, old people are the problem.

>>> You've most likely got less stamina too.

Well, you got me there. I take naps frequently. But when I'm not napping I'm at my computer somewhere between 12 and 16 hours a day. Covid has had no effect on my lifestyle as I haven't been invited to parties or weddings for years. All I get now are funerals but they don't take much time.

>>> Statistically speaking you're less likely to change your mind on any subject, even if you want to, the older you get the more your beliefs are fixed, and the harder it is to change in any area. Not saying it's impossible, just harder.

I have a degree in Mathematics. I can tell that you haven't spent a lot of your 12-24 months learning anything about statistics. Yes, it is harder to change my mind but, since I study a lot, I can usually cite sources for my beliefs.

>>> Is there any non-emotional reason that causes people to think it's actually a bad thing?

Well, your wife and children might. Consider: Data from the BLS shows that approximately 20% of new businesses fail during the first two years of being open, 45% during the first five years, and 65% during the first 10 years. Only 25% of new businesses make it to 15 years or more. So if you go into business at 35 you have a 25% chance of being in business at 50.

Current lifetime statistics in the U.S. for males 75ish, females 80ish. Of course, that's only for sex. I have no idea what the statistics are for gender. I suspect that if your business fails when you are 50 you might "change your mind" about age-related discrimination. But that would contradict your previous point, so maybe not. Time will tell.

Now I will crawl back into my corner and scrape the Rust off my programming. Sigh.