The Factorio Mindset | Hacker News Reader

The Factorio Mindset

thediff.co

464 pointsAriarule349 comments

I'm literally playing Factorio right now, with my kid. Got into it over Christmas based on HN talking about it all the time. Good game to multi because I don't have to pay attention all the time.

It really reminds me of software in many ways. You fiddle with tiny little things like balancing a belt, and then move on to building belt balancers. You then move up the abstractions to where you're not really placing inserters all the time. Maybe you make some blueprints and you're placing a whole set of nuke power plants in one go, or looking at trains.

The kid loves it, but you can (luckily) tell the difference between what he makes and what I make. That engineer keep-stuff-organized thing takes a bit of time to hone, but he's getting there. He also understands how to find root causes now, based on looking at where there's a blockage in production and tracking back along the chain.

One thing that's interesting is that the game is a bit, you know, dark. I mean we've built hell and the kid doesn't mind. Literally paved paradise with concrete. The air is black with robots, 100k of them at the moment. There's furnaces all over the place. We got rid of the steam power generation but there are huge areas of nukes all over. The natives are getting atomic bombs thrown at them constantly, it takes a while to even get to the nearest spawner. Or water that isn't green.

And yet he doesn't ask about how we destroyed all the cliffs and filled in the lakes, and chopped the trees.

"How should we make it bigger, dad?"

Dyson Sphere Program is a great Factorio-like that feels more optimistic and less dark. It’s still about harvesting every last resource though. On the other hand there’s Terra Nil, where the goal is to clean up a destroyed landscape and then leave it without a trace. It’s more of a puzzle game than a factory game, but still worth playing: https://vfqd.itch.io/terra-nil

Yep, currently playing through DSP myself, as a factorio veteran.

DSP is a great successor, even more than Satisfactory. It's amazing how well the DSP devs have figured out how to scale from small factory plots to inter-planetary supply chains to galaxy-wide economies, all to build a mega project.

The only thing that's really missing (and same with Satisfactory, IMO) is the punishment for expanding too far too fast, the way the bugs in Factorio operate. DSP is supposedly adding combat later though, so we'll see how it pans out.

I'd like a greater focus on externalities, honestly.

Oxygen Not Included does that really well IMO. Almost every production process has inputs and outputs, and a lot of the outputs are waste that you need to figure out either how to utilize as input in another process, or to dispose of safely and in a scalable way so as to avoid negative repercussions. Waste isn't just in the form of products either. For example, one of the challenges that sneaks up on new players is that heat is also a type of waste, and if you don't take steps to manage it (for example, by insulating your power generators), it can wreck your colony.

Yeah, ONI is fantastic in this regard. I find myself struggling with it in late game for precisely this reason - if you don't lay the ground work for things like heat when building your initial setup, it's much harder to rip it up and move on.

With DSP you can just move to another planet and rebuild, which is great from scalability but less important challenge wise.

Speaking of that... When people talk about limitless cheap energy from fusion reactors in 30-50 years, I wonder about goal warning from water great from all that energy consumed and turned into waste heat radiated into Earth's atmosphere.

On the multiplayer side - Eco. An incredibly underrated game. You have a month of playtime to extract resources, develop your society, and be advanced enough to stop an asteroid. Leaving minimum impact is heavily encouraged, and it has the most sophisticated economic system I've seen in any computer game.

This, I have joined a small server and it is just a good game.

I went in expecting it to have "cringeworthy levels of hippy idealism", but no, it is actually a reasonably sane game. It is the first game since Wurm Online that I have felt like part of a community thanks to the game mechanics themselves, and not just incidentally. A lone person will need inordinate amounts of time to go far into the tech tree, so instead people specialize, and soon after I was running a delivery company that moved orders of resources between players, with people greeting eachother when passing by at the trade district.

Can you play Eco with 2 people?

Not really, the game is really made for the "10s of people scale".

But thanks to how it works, it doesn't need 10s of coordinated people, you can certainly just join some existing server with a friend and have an equally good time.

Factory Town is my current go-to. Rise of Industry has its points, as does Voxel Tycoon, but Factory Town is cheery and fun and it brings back the Factorio-style logic networks (and be prepared to use them, as it takes away Factorio-style train-routing — though you gain tagging support.)

DSP is excellent. I beat it before Factorio, and liked it a lot more, but I then went back to Factorio to scratch the same itch and after beating it think it's a bit better. The modding support and multiplayer, especially,

DSP is prettier, grander in scale, and also has a lot of niceties that come with being part of the second generation of the genre. Absolutely worth playing if you enjoy Factorio.

I've been waiting for Terra Nil since August, i think. I'm always bummed out when i see someone playing a game for video, and it's "not available yet". It's almost as bad as games that have been in early access for over a year.

Waiting for http://enwp.org/Miegakure for 11 years and counting.

Anything for iOS?

There’s builderment, that is kind of a simple factorio but without creeps (or main character for that matter)

Mindustry and Shapez IO (browser) are pretty good.

I had forgot about Mindustry...

What have you done to me! Loved that game and wasted way too much time on it, will have to spend some more.

Edit: Looks like it even got a fair few upgrades since! You can even code in game now.

Satisfactory had even more of that effect on me and the kid when we played it. Perhaps because of being 3D and having all sorts of native flora and fauna that was very good at being annoying and getting in the way of construction.

It essentially made it fun to destroy the native environment and replace it with concrete. It's not even that we didn't mind doing it, it's that we enjoyed it. It was kind of unsettling, since it made me think that is how I would feel if I were a 19th century British colonialist bringing "order" to various native lands.

I got sucked into Satisfactory a while back. After about 100 hours in the game, I was standing at the top of a cliff looking at my creation and said to myself "I'm the worst ecological disaster this planet has ever seen."

I'm planning to start a new save soon, and I think I'm going to try playing with some self-imposed rules, like not removing vegetation. Not as much, anyways. I'm not exactly a budding architect; where I bothered with buildings at all they're mostly giant boxes filled with machines. But I've seen some pretty creative, inspiring buildings on the Satisfactory subreddit and I think the game is flexible enough that I could create a factory that incorporates the nature around it rather than just smashing everything flat.

>myself "I'm the worst ecological disaster this planet has ever seen."

Really? Worse than an asteroid strike, a massive volcanic eruption, a massive flood? Blights and other naturally occurring diseases that have wiped out entire species are much worse ecological disasters than building an entire Manhattan.

If you building was the worst thing that ever happened to that planet, it wasn’t modeled as a real planet in the first place.

In a sense they were the only ecological disaster the planet had ever seen. Something isn't a 'disaster' unless there's some sentient observer to judge the outcome. Asteroid strikes, volcanic eruptions, floods, gamma ray bursts, black holes... they're not disasters, just events, until someone gets upset about them.

I had that moment of clarity when I got the chainsaw, and again when I looked over my giant field of coal generators.

Satisfactory was fun for a while, and I want to try the v5 features still, but even as an FPS vet I get headaches and frustrations trying to do accurate placement of buildings, let alone tightly optimal.

Amazing graphics optimizations, considering the dynamic lighting and how many objects are rendered.

The 'zooping' or whatever they call that allows you to build multiple things at a time is outstanding. Enormous time saver.

With a few exceptions, I think building placement is outstanding. Hold alt and it snaps, even if the other building is far away, with audio cues. Conveyor belts give a dopamine hit every time I place a long one. That is with foundations of course. Without them you get the spaghetti mess.

What is more difficult than Factorio is that there are no blueprints or robots to build stuff for you. Also, the terrain doesn't help, we can't just destroy cliffs. But that's also interesting.

Satisfactory is in my top 3 of all time, just ahead of Factorio. 2200 hours vs 1600 in the latter. I like it for the 3D exploration and hand crafted map. I love that (if you don’t cheat yourself out of it by abusing ramps) you can spend hours on expeditions through treacherous terrain to get to the next resource.

However my gripes are the same as yours. Placement is an unwanted meta-game that they ought to remove via better QoL features. The existing alignment, snapping, picking, and repeating features are inadequate for a game like this.

A lot of recent changes to the game have been quality of life changes to make it easier to align things.

> And yet he doesn't ask about how we destroyed all the cliffs and filled in the lakes, and chopped the trees.

I guess it's because he knows that it's just a game. And there's nothing in the game's rules that allows you to befriend the natives. There's simply no other choice that is rewarded other than expansion and domination, because the natives will always be hostile when you get close to them. Plus: The natives expand too. From time to time new biter bases spawn.

If Factorio took place on Earth, that would be pretty dark. But, remember the backstory is that you've crash-landed your spaceship on an alien world filled with giant hostile insects who will attack you when you get too close, even if you build nothing and never pollute. Hardly a paradise!

On the subreddit, I once read a good argument that perhaps the backstory is actually more sinister. Supposedly you're crashlanded … but you launch a satellite? (Instead of ever escaping?) The poster supposed that, what if the narrator is a faulty narrator, and in reality, our character has been sent as a sort of advanced terraforming agent send to prepare the planet for colonization or such. After all, the engineer needs no sleep, no food, never seems to tire, can somehow research a wide range of complex technology on his or her own. Perhaps the PC has simply been led, or programmed, to believe that he's crash landed (or perhaps that's even the truth, just the crash landing was on purpose, to deliver him to the planet), and programmed such that he can't recognize the cognitive dissonance of getting to a rocket but never leaving, always expanding …

Wouldn't you be a bit hostile if aliens landed on your world and started exploiting it?

it's quite easy to put a dent in the "poor good alien" narrative: stand around doing nothing. once enough time passes, biters will kill you irregardless. mind it does take a while for them to come get you, but they will come: https://i.imgur.com/GFxUvu4.png

so the engineer motive is clear: survival, not invasion.

besides, the aliens are an infestation, not part of the ecosystem; as a matter of fact, alien left to their own device will expand and kill the planet biomass. aliens are there to consume, no less than the engineer.

> aliens are there to consume, no less than the engineer.

Same as all other life really.

Doesn’t that make it even worse? You invade, destroy the environment, and the beings that lived there don’t like it. So you commit genocide and unilaterally decide to destroy the planet.

Is that not a description of colonial America?

I think that's a bit of a weak point. When I play a violent video game I don't want to kill people in real life. He probably just knows it's a game.

> the game is a bit, you know, dark

That’s what really bothered me with this game. I’ve tried playing it in the past but this kept me from liking it and continuing. It’s depressing enough we’re doing some version of that in real life, but at least I’m not fully responsible for it. In the game, I am causing it and am 100% responsible for it.

I don’t know why they did it that way. It could just as well have been without this destructive and deathly element.

Oh well, I have other hobbies.

For a time I played multiplayer using, IIRC, a mod called Nauvis Day. Combined with some of our other mainstay mod choices (Rampant) it made it very important to track and deal with pollution, though of course it didn't make it into really pro-ecological setup - It just made all sorts of waste and pollution a problem you had to manage (Rampant does it as well, as it makes bugs hardcore and much more intelligent, but Nauvis upped the scale on pollution management).

On one hand, before we disabled it for being buggy i nearly made a bunch of things perfect (if energy intensive) recycled, OTOH I found we had a nuclear artillery shells and trains that could fire them... Then built a pipeline to make the shells and started cleansing...

That's probably a good educational point in favor of the game, as it introduces the concept that material and energy scarcity can exert fundamental control over industrial production levels.

I kind of like that its dark, the aliens attack because of the pollution you create, and yet still the factory grows and I clear the hives with better weaponry.

Its has some connection to reality that cuts deep and yet I want to play more get my SPM to go higher, it feels like everything wrong with modern life depressing and fun at the same time.

Trying to plan things with only solar panels has this Puritan work ethic feeling for me.

My problem with games like Factorio (and more recently Oxygen no Included), is that after I get addicted and get up past 100 hours of gameplay I start to question what the hell I'm doing with my life. Up until that point it's great fun designing, building, and optimizing, but then a switch in my head flips. I start to become anxious about the fact that I was excited about getting better at skills in a virtual world. Usually around this time I start watching videos of more advanced builds, and then become increasingly depressed about the idea of sinking 1000+ hours into a game, when I could just be building something in the real world, or out riding my bike. This is usually the time I put the game down and never play it again.

I think the problem for me is that these games give me the illusion of learning, building, and accomplishing things, which my little engineer brain loves. But once I come out of the haze of addiction, I realize it's nothing more than an illusion, and I just stomach going on.

I feel this way too. I feel like games like factorio "sap my energy" for applying the same skills in real life.

I'm sure that if I applied myself in the same obsessive/borderline-autisitc manner that factorio brings out of me, I could accomplish real world things that actually matter to my life.

I feel like HN browsing also does this to some extent. Makes me feel smart and very technical - but I don't actually DO anything with this knowledge.

Yeah, I feel you. However, remember that these are games. It's fun to play. It's unlikely in real-life that you will get the opportunity to control resources and strategy on the level that Factorio and such offer. Enjoy the opportunity to build. To imagine and see where your imagination takes you. It's good practice, mental exercise.

Much like with story-telling in the form of books and movies, playing (good) games is an opportunity to learn about yourself and reality, and then grow in response.

You are the player of games. Be mindful so the game doesn't play you. ;) It sounds like you're doing well to recognize "enough," when the trade-offs don't make sense anymore, though a bit late. Maybe next time you'll slow down before anxiety need kick in. Good luck, have fun!

Optimizing and organizing are skills that you develop and can practice by gaming, there are plenty of transferable skills, and opportunities to learn from what sticks you up (from one side: i spend so much time optimizing i don’t get anything done, from the other: my stuff is such a mess it’s not getting much done)

You can like doing something and then realize you’re spending more time on it than you want and stop, both things are fine.

I like to explore the game mechanic. I abandon games once I feel like I figured out the game loop and don’t want to invest in the grind.

Why do it? Because building stuff in the real world isn’t necessarily better. What are you gonna do with things you build? In a game, at least you’re not wasting real resources.

Riding a bike is probably better, but what do you do when you’re done?

So personally, I think it is totally fine to invest these 100 hours and then abandon, because they were entertaining. You don’t have to deeply invest and hence, I don’t see it as "a problem".

I feel the same way about games like this.

Many games can be social experiences. Even if the game isn't multiplayer, like a rogue-like (or Wordle -- is Wordle a rogue-lite?) you can compare "runs" with others. Other single-player games have a compelling story or characters you can discuss with friends who have also played it. But some games don't work for meaningful social discussion at all, and it can be hard to want to play them!

"How Much Are Games Like Factorio And EVE Online Sapping Away The Intellectual Potential Of Humanity?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/ml00ac/how_...

>I often wonder if these specific types of games are redirecting a nontrivial amount of human intellectual output into a deadend. They're explicitly geared to lure in the kind of obsessive tinkerer types who've historically driven scientific and engineering progress. Only now, there's little to no payoff for the rest of humanity if they spend thousands of hours consumed by one of these games. What's Newton's modern equivalent doing right now? Probably perfecting a build order in Stellaris.

As the first response there says "Play is a way to learn and hone skills."

And there's an assumption that people who aren't 'playing' would automatically be doing something 'worthy' instead.

I suspect the reality is that most of us here went through an obsessive period of learning something which paid off in unexpected ways later. Eve could be teaching all sorts of things, including business and organizational skills: https://youtu.be/6rEfQ3GT73A?t=878

I got really into it for a while and had to stop for the same reason. Plus the whole aesthetic and theme of the game felt gross to me.

Fair side downside : I feel I’m playing some type of world destruction simulator while playing factorio.

Why can't you just enjoy a hobby? Why do you feel the urge to extract productivity gains from something fun.

I have over 5000 hours in Factorio. I am part of a group where several of us are over 5000 hours. Some of us have Autism. Some of us have ADHD. Some of us have both. The majority of us are in the tech industry.

The companies we work at have been made to understand that the factory must grow.

The factory is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding factory.

When I play a new game of Factorio I literally stay up for like 14 hours every day until I get a lot of the rocket launch automated. It’s insane, it impacts my health for a month or so after lol

Wait until you see the speedruns; nefrums and wargerr are currently 100% achievements in 6hrs and 5hrs27 respectively (see speedruns.com/factorio #100) Launching a rocket is down to about 90 mins without using imported blueprints.

Worth mentioning AntiElitz too :)

Thanks for the wargerr recommendation!

I think most people literally stay up for more than 14 hours a day.

Ignoring the extra 8 hours of working, so it's more like 22 hours a day

honest question, but is factorio not a similar itch to programming? I always feel with these type of games, that my time would be better spent working on a personal software project, where i get reasonably similar enjoyment, more satisfaction, and presumably more transferable skills.

It is like crack for programmers.

> that my time would be better spent working on a personal software project, where i get reasonably similar enjoyment, more satisfaction, and presumably more transferable skills.

Sure. Maybe your time would be better spent working overtime too. Factorio is a game, and focus on the fun parts. Battling NPM dependencies after a full work day is not fun, it's just more work. There are some days when you are just cranking out code and not worrying about much else, but those days are not necessarily the norm.

I felt the same way for a while (this is FUN, this isn't work!), but at one point I came back to the game after a few months off, started a new factory, got to something like "automate green circuits", and immediately felt like I was back to battling some NPM dependency. It had lost all its magic and suddenly felt like work again. This was after about 300 hours of playtime over a few years, but I haven't really been able to get back into it since then. It's really unfortunate because it was one of my favorite games when I was still enjoying it.

The biggest hurdle for me getting back in is just getting past the bootstrapping phase to where you can automate the construction of things from blueprints. Luckily the game is made overwhelmingly with mods in mind, so there is a mod for my issue.

I had a similar experience but the Space Exploration mod has made it feel like a brand new game again. I haven’t even reached space yet, but lots of the recipes have changed in ways that are more interesting (e.g. the introduction of glass, stone plate, the extension of the burner phase, etc) than a straight replay would be.

Yeah, I had basically the exact same experience. Haven’t launched a rocket yet.

In factorio, you have all the information and tools right in front of you. Everything is transparent. There are no black box failures. If there's a problem, you can and will find the source of it and be able to fix it. It satisfies the building+problem solving itch without the painful parts of programming, eg broken dependencies, slow build times, putting an = instead of a ==.

So, yes, programming is of course more productive, but that's not really the point of leisure time.

I like your point about the limit. Real world system debugging can always go lower than my know how reaches. But in my experience the broken dependencies, slow build time, putting an inserter the wrong way are core mechanics of the late game.

Its a similar itch as programming for fun, but often that becomes less fun after spending the entire day programming for money. Factorio is just different enough to still be fun and relaxing, even though its similar.

Programming also comes with baggage that Factorio can do away with (eg sibling comment mentioned build tools, I've given up on an evening of personal programming before because setting up the build environment was too much effort... looking at you cmake you piece of garbage... Or because I hit a bug that was too much effort to find/fix. Factorio "debugging" is much simpler, its about finding blockages or optimizing things, not figuring out why undefined is not a number in some deeply nested code where the value couldn't possibly be undefined but it turns out some async code changed it without you realizing...)

It's like a software project with complete and correct specs and no users. Everything you love about programming and none of the things you hate.

It is, which is why i stopped playing after ~40hrs. "Refactoring" my factory was too similar to refactoring my code, so playing this game after work (and my work makes me tired sometimes) is not a relax I'm looking for on evening after work.

You have the right intuition. From my point of view, I can easily find higher level ways to scratch my building, thinking, tinkering itches.

I'll have cycles where I'll choose lower levels. For example, most recently I purchased a classic hp rpn programmable calculator and have had fun working through the manual, doing exercises, solving problems with it, and of course, learning to program it.

I can only speak for myself but factorio is a little bit easier to zone out and enjoy than a side project. It's not a transferable skill but neither is reading sci fi but I enjoy and spend quite a lot of time doing that.

Yea, but its def a game, and that is more relaxed than actual programming. And you can do it with friends who may not want to code.

whimsy makes learning a lot more bearable.

Winter 2020 I started learning factorio. Winter 2021 I started learning Rust. Same level of frustration at times, same level of joy =) "Bah I'm doing it all wrong! .... Ah that's way better"

Productivity for the sake of productivity leads to its own obsolescence.

I started playing Timberborn, which is kind of like Factorio, but with adorable little beavers.

One faction is focused on harmony with the environment, the other is heavily focused on modifying it.

Factorio should be the interview test ;) Tech’s Ender’s Game.

(factorio fan, but with little time to enjoy it)

I would love to see ~ "Factorio - 524 RPM base, trains only no drones" on a resume

Or heck, even completing either Angels or SpaceEx mods show a serious amount of dedication, "self-starter-ness" and competence in reading documentation. I've put 5000+ hours in and fell off spaceex in the green space science - so much depth.

Been playing Space Exploration mod with some friends for a little over a year on the same map now. Mabye ~300-400 hours into it and just starting to get naquitie feeling solid. Absolutely enormous scale to it

Oh man after I made my first blue space science I knew I had to stop. I have a family and a career and a base back on Navus to worry about. It became clear that success was so vastly out of reach that I wouldn’t be satisfied for months, and my IRL would go far further downhill. Still, I had to try setting up a couple moon bases, and I never got around to building a ship :/

Honestly yeah, I'm gonna add a link to my 1k SPM walkthrough to my resume. Down downside seems very low and the upside very high.

I think that low downside could be a useful company-screening mechanism. Any company who takes that as a negative would probably be somewhere with a poor engineering culture that I wouldn't want to work at. Could certainly be neutral or an eyeroll at some good places, but I'd guess anyone who counts it against an applicant probably isn't a great place to work.

If you could figure out how to hook up Factorio to AWS APIs and get kids to build/maintain your org's infrastructure...

There is psDoom [1] to manage *nix processes in Doom. There is Dockercraft [2] to manage docker containers in Minecraft. Managing AWS in Factorio seems like next logical step!

[1] http://psdoom.sourceforge.net [2] https://github.com/docker/dockercraft

There are docker instances for Factorio, I think I made my own at some point.

But someone should figure out how to simplify the Clustorio installation into a docker-based one. Then everyone could enjoy 60k SPM giga-bases. Even better add auto-scaling to spin up a new EC2 instance when UPS drops below 60 on any node in the cluster.

Here's a Terraform provider for you-

https://registry.terraform.io/providers/efokschaner/factorio...

"Sorry about that brief outage, the biters got closer than I realized and I had to scramble to rebuild the defense system before they overran our Aurora cluster."

>Tech’s Ender’s Game //

Spoilers!?!

Playing Factorio is actually doing some sort of real-world silicon design, or when you I'll the aliens you're really killing aliens... ?

Not read the book, only watched the movie. Probably someone will come and tell me I misunderstood it.

I assumed it was a less subtle reference to the fact that you spend half the game massacring untold numbers of bugs, and the aliens in Ender's Game were referred to as bugs.

There's a company that actually does factorio in interviews, was mentioned on HN

> Tech’s Ender’s Game.

I think the last starfighter would be a more apt analogy

Touché.

Thank you; i feel better about "just under" 3,000 hours now.

I've only really played 2 games. Started messing with making mods and decided I'd better stop playing that game for a while.

AssemblyStorm weekly?

> I used to be of the opinion that the computer game Factorio was a colossal waste of talent, burning many billions of dollars of GDP every year.... But since trying it out a bit more I’m starting to suspect that Factorio is the rare computer game to actually increase GDP.

Hell of an opener that just makes me immediately dislike this guys entire worldview.

Kinda also backed up by the fact that he doesn't mention the very unsubtle commentary of you basically strip mining an alien planet clean mutating the wild life into a homicidal frenzy in desperate attempt to stop you from killing their home with pollution.

> he doesn't mention the very unsubtle commentary of you basically strip mining an alien planet clean mutating the wild life into a homicidal frenzy in desperate attempt to stop you from killing their home with pollution.

People who get hung up on this are pretty shallow though. It’s such a tiring trope of “oh no, look at how bad colonialism is”. There is a lot of good stuff to discuss about the game beyond the sophomoric analogies with the native aliens.

When people are discussing things like call of duty, battlefield, etc it would be equally as idiotic to discuss “the unsubtle commentary of the horrors of war”.

The game allows one to disable the wildlife, no mods required, so it’s possible to focus solely on game without dealing with it at all.

However. I do think it’s a pretty amazing mechanic that the game designers put in the game, and is a great tool to shine light on the darkest aspect of the human race: our unbelievable capacity to subdue and destroy.

Factorio isn’t just about being dropped in a war zone and shooting the bad guys. It’s about scaling up destruction to a planetary scale. Often unintentionally (pollution) but also intentionally (nukes). These are all very rich and interesting things to speculate on, none of it is “shallow”.

What do you mean "speculate"? Seems pretty straightforward: you're polluting and killing the native life. And? Do that in real life = bad. Do that in a game = ok. I think we all know that.

This post is titled "The Factorio Mindset" and the author spends a lot of time talking about why it's something positive that should be cultivated. I'm not so sure we do all know that.

honestly, I though the pollution and wildlife aggression were put in the game as balancing elements (urge to switch power source, force to invest in defences, slow expansion) rather than any commentary

Some people legitimately think the purpose of life is productivity. I see quite a few on twitter and I can't help but stare and study them like some alien lifeform.

Purpose of life is reproduction Reproduction is easier in engineered environment

Are you saying you're one of those people? If so could you tell me why you're ok with trivializing your life like that? Are you religious?

You might be using the word "purpose" in different senses. The one you're responding to likely means that "the selection bias inherent in our perspective on the world selects for traits that enhance reproduction".

They make for excellent employees. Promotion of this and similar values almost seem like they were designed for capitalists to exploit.

For sure. I'd legitimately love to get inside their heads and see what makes them tick because it's a completely foreign mindset for me.

I saw some recently on twitter who were discussing how they run their relationships like a corporate business... They have standups, 1on1's, scheduled relationship sync up meetings, etc. As if doing this bullshit during their day jobs wasn't enough.

“Don’t trust stuff you read on the internet”.

I would be careful about this stuff as a lot of people are in the “productivity coach” market.

I've played a game called Prosperous universe and witnessed the end of capitalism. Think about it. A game where the enjoyment is derived from economic activity and it's growth. At some point you reach the end of the tech tree. There are no new frontiers to discover. There is no need for further productivity. The game is prone to making itself redundant. If there was no base limit and bots were accepted the entire game could be played by a single player thereby eliminating the need for all other players.

When you consider this inherent contradiction you really start wondering what the point of capitalism is. You reach the end and stop playing. Why haven't we stopped "playing" the same way I stopped playing?

There is an existential crisis at the core of capitalism. Productivity can only exist for the sake of leisure.

Start a game, do absolutely nothing. Witness aliens killing you nonetheless. Aliens aren't the poor good natives, and it's so easily disproven I don't understand how it ever become to be a thing.

Might be overthinking it a bit. The biters are a game mechanic to add time pressure to build your defenses up to par with your factory expansion. Sort of a deadline to stop you from navel gazing too much.

You can disable them entirely at game start, completely skip military tech, and your pollution cloud will still blight the land, poisoning trees and lakes (and fish) around you.

"You can disable them entirely at game start, completely skip military tech, and your pollution cloud will still blight the land, poisoning trees and lakes (and fish) around you."

You can turn off pollution too.

There are also mods that'll let you grow trees or fight pollution in other ways.

There's a cost to pollution in the vanilla game, when both pollution and biters are turned on, so it's not like this game is pro-pollution.

I have a bigger problem with nuclear waste having no consequences.

But even then... it's just a game!

I find it curious that some people get up in arms over the ethical issues in a game like Factorio, yet hardly anyone (outside the religious right) complains in all the violence in the most popular games of all: AAA first-person-shooters... or most games, really, as most of them place the player in the role of a killer, where you solve problems and win by learning to be a more effective killer.

Drop into your local forest, do absolutely nothing. Eventually witness a wild animal kill you. Does that justify ecocide?

Have you played the game? Biters are an infestation, if you do nothing they'll eat up the remaining available surface and destroy the local biomass. The engineer has at least a choice, and it's goal isn't infinite consumption.

Sure locally a bear can get me in a forest, but I don't need ecocide to survive a bear, and neither the engineer has to to survive biters.

I did play the game, way too much actually.

The biters don't actually destroy the biomass. Canonically, in the game, they've been there forever : https://wiki.factorio.com/Enemies , so their expansion is only triggered by the arrival of the engineer.

They also consume pollution, making them symbiotic with the local biomass.

In most of these colonization/industrialization games, the entire point is the thrill of taming a wild land and producing grand feats of engineering out of nothing. The survivalist framing, with mindlessly hostile natives, is just a narrative convenience to brush aside the ethical implications of invasion.

I don't think a video game necessarily needs to brush aside ethics: it's a game, you're allowed to be unethical.

Exactly, the first paragraphs read almost like satire.

I found the necessity to have a devastating impact on the planet's ecosystem fascinating. Even trying a "clean run" where you minimize pollution and number of killed aliens, you can't avoid the alien native's natural expansion. It's probably impossible to win without a lot killing.

That said, I don't think the game has bad intentions. It highlights the zero sum nature of resources and negatives of expansion at all costs.

Huizinga, the early theorist of games in culture, once remarked about contact bridge: "The incredible amount of productive social energy spent on this game could indeed be spent better, but in fact most likely would be wasted on something way worse"

My friend has 600+ hours played of Factorio.

He just beat the game for the first time. I bought it, we played multiplayer. And I taught him the mantra "great is the enemy of good enough". Our run took 14 hours.

I also know many people like this at work, and wish they could have the Factorio experience.

If you refactor at the first sign of trouble, you remain blind to totally new to problems just around the corner.

I mean, some people just prefer to play the game more leisurely. It's not a speed run or a business deliverable. I have around 80 hours on my factory so far and it's pretty clear to me I could have "finished" by now with a lot more corner cutting but I'm enjoying the process of exploring each tech tree discovery in depth and scaling things out "right". This takes longer, but it's fun and I feel better about the end result, and isn't that the point?

Also -- playing the game over again gives a colossal speed benefit. Probably half of my time spent on this game has been ripping up everything I did that I realize clearly won't work nicely once I reach the next tech tree item. Knowing what the end game looks like in advance saves a lot of time.

I think I partly like this game because it reminds me of programming before programming was work. Trying to get through everything as fast as possible sounds like the antithesis of that, but maybe that's just me.

This sounds like how I prefer to code: slow, exploring, learning, etc. Hopefully that fits someone's business requirements.

I got to the point where I could copy-paste walls with lasers around an area and then develop inside it at my leisure. Then the game was no-worries building therapy.

No worries until the next bitter wave comes, and oh my god there are 20 behemoths and holly crap this drawing a lot of power, wait why am I experiencing a brown out? Oh no.....my coal mines are electric powered on the same grid as the turrets and the buffer is low......They made it through the wall.....They are destroying the base including the coal mines......Time to start over!

This is why you have a separate defense grid, and a capacitor farm to serve defense demand, and when the capacitors run low you have a logic network to read the value of `A` (accumulator fill %) and turn off everything that isn't critical (mining, etc). (Of course, you'll need this switch at any satellite installation too.)

You may need to shift-click some electric poles to disconnect them from other poles, and use copper wire to connect them exactly how you want.

Add a lowkey alarm buzzer (the speaker) to let you know this is going on. Try to have a second, louder one that detects whether it's failed and the factory is still on because of a short circuit. Conduct tests by wiring in a constant combinator outputting a fixed value of A (possibly negative).

Always good to keep a few coal powered inserters, hehe

I would have failed college if this had come out back when I was a student.

> great is the enemy of good enough

One-man Factorio is a lot different than big-team Factorio. As a single factory-developer, you need to be startup-like and remember that your time in the present is the most valuable resource.

So always automate everything the first time, because you WILL need more of that component. But do it in a quick and dirty and unscalable manner so you can move on to something else. Start with box-fed production lines; when you're sick and tired of refilling the boxes, it's time to re-do it better.

Build a system to support this throwaway development, where you can tear things down later and replace them and it keeps working. Start with a narrow bus, not eight lanes each for iron and copper — but keep it open for expansion downstream. When you run out of space near the start of the bus, don't just move things a few tiles to squeeze in an incremental upgrade: build a much bigger production line further downstream. You'll have more and better components to do it right.

And always, always, always, keep your interconnects separate from your production components. You don't need a single straight-line bus like some people think, right angles and parallels and grids are fine, but if your belts are snaking through something else, it's real hard to tear down that something-else, and it's real hard to scale up. Encapsulation is important.

And when you're finally scaling up like crazy, ready for the big leagues, use a high-throughput component someone else developed and have your robots install it.

That's been my takeaway from these games, too. It really helped with my perfectionism because it makes the negative effects of it tangible; you notice how much more time you lose by trying to be perfect rather than just getting your supply of materials up and running.

The factorio dev team are such fantastic software engineers, I wonder if this was an emergent feature of building what they want or if there was actually intentionality in making this a common takeaway from playing the game.

If you haven't, read their blog! It's a master class in release notes and development communication.

For me "beating" those type of games isn't the point. I've got nearly 1,500 hours on Rimworld and I've never beaten the game. It's more interesting to me to create different scenarios and see where they go and what stories come from them than to try to optimize for racing to the end.

Yeah an earlier poster mentioned something about there being no black box problems and that all the information to do anything is already out there to read. I think this is only true if you are looking to beat the game in a prescribed way. There is a massive amount of space for experimentation and defining your own resource restrictions and goal state.

A good example of this in Satisfactory (haven't played Factorio) is balancers vs. manifolds. The idea is that you have factory components that need to feed other factory components at a certain speed to get to 100% efficiency. One way to do that is to place the correct number of splitters and mergers to get the right ratios based on the output rate of the various components and the input rate of the others (the balancer way). The other way (the manifold way) is to just hook up one factory component that needs to feed another and let it run until it has filled up it's buffer. Then add a splitter to take the overflow and repeat until you are at 100%. Do this for all inputs. A complicated balancer looks like a drawing of a Christmas tree made of balancers and mergers and takes up a lot of space. A manifold is just a line of constructors or whatever with splitters in front of them going from one output to one input.

You can put up a manifold without doing any math and just stop adding factory components when it can't feed the next building. You can sink hours into just designing the perfect balancer for your situation, let alone building it. I always go the manifold way.

In software dev, my team has a “naive, naive, refactor” rule for this problem

Could you elaborate on this rule?

My guess is, it has to do with how you handle 1, 2, N. The first time we write something, we write it just for that specific case --- no point overengineering if you don't know you'll need it. (Hence the "YAGNI" advice that is common.)

Now, there are two things that code has to handle. You could put in a simple bit of special-case logic, or a case statement, and move on, OR you could instead spend time, codes, and tests making it robust to handle many different types of input, with a type-specific config system that makes it easy to add new type-specific behavior.

Our predilection on many teams is to skip the middle part, and write robust automation the first time we hit a special exception. ("This used to be about ordering burgers but now we want to also order shakes, and they don't have a cook-time.") It seems like the OP was suggesting that we do a "crappy" good-enough solution to that intermediate phase of complexity, as there's a chance you might not need more than that.

Exactly, great explanation

It may be a reference to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_three_(computer_progra...

The idea is that you grit your teeth and let code be deduplicated twice (but no more), rather than immediately DRYing up code, so you'll (hopefully) have a better sense of what the common code should look like.

(I personally think it's too hard in practice, as common code can be written sufficiently differently to not be recognizable as common by the Engineers Of Tomorrow).

The first time you implement, the default is to over abstract. The second time even more. By the third, you have a good enough idea of what you need to then build something robust. Each phase is faster.

Second iteration is almost always copy and paste of first with small tweaks. I’d rather that than some kind of conditional.

The best UI almost never fits the most convenient technical solution so we optimize for UI and then technical.

I wrote about this https://shaneburkhart.com/i/naive-naive-refactor

In what situations did this mantra help? I am the same as your friend, I have like 100 hours and I have never reached the endgame, always unsatisfied with my factory.

Construction Bots can automatically "tear down" your trash areas, and unlocks the "copy" and "paste" buttons, meaning you rebuild the areas much faster.

Bots are roughly blue-science, or the ~halfway point of the tech tree.

---------

So everything "Before" construction bots can be basically seen as a "prototype" or "throwaway" factory. Everything "after" construction bots is also a prototype, because you can just hit the "deconstruct planner" and tear everything down automatically and reconstruct from scratch whenever you want.

If everything is a prototype, then perfection doesn't matter. Instead, you're "pursuing" perfection, teardown whenever you think you have a better grand plan, and copy/paste the design back if you make a mistake (or Ctrl-z / undo your decisions as needed. Etc. etc.)

as you unlock more technologies, it becomes increasingly easy to refactor/maintain a large factory. ex: bots are a major inflection point in the game. you could scale up petroleum processing and red circuits before getting bots (you need these two things to make them), but that involves a lot of manual effort. it's usually better to do a barely sufficient (but tileable!) petroleum and rc setup, then immediately fix it after making a few construction bots.

more general tip: clean interfaces are more important than massive capacity up front. in the long run, you will always need more steel/circuits/etc than you can serve with a single production line. but even if the internal layout is a mess, a functional unit with a clean interface can be scaled horizontally forever.

Cleanliness doesn't really matter, because space is infinite.

-----------

So long as you've unlocked enough military (ie: shotgun in the early game, or tank in the mid-game), you can just clear out more room and then build there. (Shotgun has significant pierce-damage, enough to kill the alien bases. Tank also has significant pierce damage and impact-damage, allowing you to win against small / medium aliens through the midgame rather easily and cheaply)

Don't even "tear down" your oldbase. Just fully abandon it and move elsewhere. Even without bots, there's no penalty to "just leaving".

---------

Bots / deconstruction planner is more of a thing if you're tired of cleaning out biter-territory and want to "recycle" your old areas.

Hi, it's me your local site reliability engineer. I care about things like latency, monitoring, and being able to understand the overall moving pieces. Scaling things in appropriate ratios is also relevant to me. I'd put you in a storage box and nuke if I could, but let's go have this conversation standing on these train tracks.

maybe we are talking past each other, but I'd say clean interfaces and bots are very important even if you don't want to tear down the original factory. you want to be able to double production of high volume products with a couple copy-pastes. can't really do this if you have some gnarly IO setup.

I agree clean layouts inside of functional units is unnecessary. land is cheap; just make something that works and cp it everywhere.

Going to give a shoutout to

https://anuke.itch.io/mindustry

and

https://songsofsyx.com/

In particular, mindustry can actually run scripts within the game to automate a lot of things. If you like factorio you're going to like these 2 games.

Me and my friend are actually working on a somewhat similar game called Captain of Industry [1]. The game is less about automation and scaling and more about realistic processes, mining with excavators, trucks logistics, and taking care of your workers. It's not done yet but we are quite close!

[1] https://www.captain-of-industry.com/

PS: To my surprise, simulation games are a lot of very technical work full of algorithms and optimizations, compared to an average SWE work in a tech company.

I mean this as a compliment when I say I hope this never gets released.

Just curious, if you're focusing on realistic processes, how come that excludes realistic spacing/placement of structures (based on your websites background video/image)? Wouldn't the two go hand in hand for the feeling of the game you're trying to build?

I am not sure what do you mean by "realistic spacing/placement of structures", could you elaborate? Do you mean that in reality you would not build a farm next to a blast furnace? That's true, we did not implement any mechanics regarding building proximity to others, but that is certainly an interesting idea!

When I mentioned our focus on reality, I meant that the mechanics and processes are mostly driven how things are done in the real world and by playing the game you can even learn something new (e.g. steel production needs oxygen). However, it is a game and this can be done only to a certain degree, especially the early game has a lot of "shortcuts".

As an example of realistic mechanics and processes, you build excavators that mine ores and coal, trucks haul materials around the factory, terrain collapses as it is being mined, iron and steel smelting produces slag that needs to be disposed, fertilizer for farms is made from ammonia (synthetic process) or from compost (natural process), etc. (see our wiki for more https://wiki.captain-of-industry.com/ ).

Sure, I'll try. The structures are all lined up and flush up against each other, and the buildings are bunched up. There's nothing wrong with that, I was just confused by "realistic processes". To me that also means (closer to) realistic functionality at the structures too, both in placement and functionality. Since you mentioned it, it seems like a key part of your game but to me that isn't communicated in the video sample.

Im working on a video game too so I understand the necessity of limitations and shortcuts. And your point could be entirely clear if I were to play the game. I'm just pointing out, IMO, there's a disjoint between what I see and what you say.

Edit: I'll add, I believe the communication and interpretation of game functions is extremely important. Im creating a city builder/simulation game, but the depth of the simulation is determined by what's communicated to the player, not what the code does. I could create an intelligent game AI and a sophisticated economy, but if it doesn't communicate that to the player in any way, then it's no different than RNG to the players eyes.

Wow, this looks really good, nice work.

Let's add https://shapez.io/ to that list!

I haven't tried factorio yet, but it seems very similar to mindustry, except that mindustry is also a mix of "real" tower defense and RTS.

I really like mindustry. It's open source, available for free on multiple platforms (it's java), and paid on others.

It constantly gets updated, and has a nice progress curve. I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the recent addition of processors. It breaks the balance of the game a bit, as you can basically program your own AI for it, and do stuff like smart electric grid load balancing, shutting down reactors before they overheat, and use units as resource transports. On the other hand, it's fun to play with, and with a bit of automation you can save a lot of space.

As an electronics engineer, that game is quite appealing to me, and nicely illustrates some of the challenges we face everyday in engineering: refactoring, dependencies, synchronization, modularity vs optimization, "security", etc.

I feel like a better link might be the official website at https://mindustrygame.github.io/

Obligatory Zachtronics and Screeps links. TIS and Shenzen are my favorites of the zachtronics series. I've never really gotten into screeps but it always looks so cool.

https://www.zachtronics.com/

https://screeps.com/

SpaceChem is where it started for me.

Bitburner is a pure coding factory-must-grow game. it's like your "run scripts to automate things in the game" without anything else

Also http://factoryidle.com. There's no "person" that you're in control of and it plays different for other reasons, but it's definitely in the same category.

There's also Satisfactory if you like a 1st person view of things.

Thanks for the recommendation! I loved that game

I tried Mindustry a bit and found it not very appealing, but looking back at it I realize a big part of that is just the visual appeal - or the lack of one.

Song of Syx looks interesting though, definitely worth at least a try. Thanks for the recommendation.

Personally I put songs of syx above that of mindustry. But Mindustry is more closely related to Factorio.

Songs of syx is very fun.

I had more fun with mindustry than factorio. IDK why but I just felt it more approachable

Mindustry is highly recommended for sure.

I often encounter this issue when it comes to programming-like games. I’m wondering if I should adjust my thinking here.

1) Hmm, this game is a lot like programming. A lot like it.

2) Maybe I should just program? That is real work & I can get done more work done, be more productive.

3) [stopped game, started programming]

If your life goal is to optimize for "productivity", then you will of course encounter your issue. I imagine the vast majority of people seek out leisure activities. What I've found that Factorio does for many programmers is that it hits the same dopamine receptors that productive programming does, just in a non-work context. A professional football player should be able to enjoy playing basketball in their off-time because it's another athletic activity and not feel the guilt of improving their football skills.

> it hits the same dopamine receptors that productive programming does, just in a non-work context.

Plus without the inevitable bullshit that's coupled to any real work.

There is a fine line between "this game exercises the same parts of my brain as my day job, but with a vastly different set of restrictions and consequences" and "I stare at a screen exercising this part of my brain all goddamn day and the last thing I want to do in my leisure time is stare at a screen using this part of my brain even more".

I am an artist; I flirted briefly with Minecraft for a while, then looked up from a flawed first attempt at an underwater glass dome at 3AM, decided I would much rather exercise my creativity in a realm where I can show it to other people and maybe make some money from it, and uninstalled Minecraft forever.

These games were my mobile companion during brief writer's block while learning C.

The Sequence, The Sequence 2, by One Man Band:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/dev?id=640940791858937636...

I don't think you're alone there. This was EXACTLY my mindset as well.

I have the same problem with the various Japanese logic puzzles (Soduku, Nurikabe, Hashi, etc): 1) This is fun! 2) Hmm, I'm using the same algorithms to solve every puzzle 3) I could probably write a solver 4) Don't write solver. Move on to something else.

Factorio is just different enough from programming that it doesn’t trigger that reflex for me.

It is more about physical layout and queuing than programming.

Exactly, I only played Factorio and Dyson Sphere Program when I was depressed. Every other time if I feel bored or burned out enough to try to play a session I think about my list of backlogged greenfield great ideas and immediately end up doing one of those. They are honestly just as creatively rewarding and fun in the greenfield stage at least.

Factorio is right on the cusp for me. SpaceChem, too. TIS-100 was a bomb for me; if I'm literally writing code, it better end up in a GitHub repo.

With Factorio for me, I always reach a point where I know how I'm going to scale up, and then I lose interest in actually doing so. Just knowing that I could do it is satisfying enough.

I love construction/management games but I very rarely "finish" them for exactly this reason. The moment I can see exactly how I would go about making it to the end goal, I'm done.

I haven't identified with a HN thread in quite a while. The moment I understand how to do something or that it's possible, I'll drop it. That includes my personal projects.

> ... TIS-100 was a bomb for me ...

I started it, but never finished it.

On the one hand, it is a vastly better debugging experience. You can see the entire state of the machine, and easily step through the execution.

In contrast, with my day job, I'm dealing with incomplete documentation, poorly designed and very large libraries without adequate comments or organization, subtle bugs that only occur in unidentified situations, etc.

But at the end of the day, TIS-100 felt more like work or a hobby project, so I'd be better off doing one of those.

"TIS-100 was a bomb for me; if I'm literally writing code, it better end up in a GitHub repo"

I was frustrated by TIS-100 for exactly the opposite reason: it wasn't enough like programming to interest me.

It's really a puzzle game, not a programming game. Its similarity to programming is just window dressing.

Factorio has trains. Also, at my programming job they frown on the use of shotguns, flame throwers, explosive rocketry, and the use of tactical nuclear missiles to solve problems.

My experience was similar. I tried Factorio once, and gave up because it was very tedious, and too much work to consider it fun. I would have liked to enjoy it, but it's not for everyone.

I've found myself following a similar thought progression. For me, the difference is that in Factorio I can decide to completely refactor my base and not have to deal with any angry stakeholders or teammates that disagree with my direction.

inb4 someone makes an angry stakeholder mod that spawns biters unless you hit some arbitrary metric in a set amount of time :)

The biters do make refactoring a bit more tricky. Got to at least keep base defenses up and running. That could be seen as the equivalent of keeping existing users happy.

That's also the reason I don't play games like these. Programming scratches the same itch for me and has fewer limitations.

Still I enjoy the absolutely insane creations of some people in those games. I'll never forget the Doom-style 3D engine[0] someone created inside Factorio, with (iirc) a clever configuration of trains as a huge graphical display.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bAuP0gO5pc

I have this feeling often, but I still go back to games. To see any fruits of my efforts doing real programming would take days or weeks at this point, and I want to do something that more or less immediately rewards me for my efforts.

You will eventually run into the problem that nobody wants your "productivity".

What other games are like programming?

One thing I don't see mentioned on here often is actually rather surprising. Modded Minecraft! There are a lot of highly technical mods that are focused on providing resources that enable mass automation, and many modpacks that push the limits of that concept.

Some of my favorite modpacks are Enigmatica 2: Expert, Omnifactory, and one I just started recently, Divine Journey 2.

They all have a similar process of starting with nothing but a book full of quests to guide your progression, and end up with you automating everything from farms to quarries to mob grinders in order to produce items that have comically difficult "recipes" to craft.

Scratches the same itch as Factorio, Zachtronics games, Satisfactory, etc. but often has some fun side goals such as making your factory look beautiful, exploration, fighting bosses, and best of all, getting your friends hooked on the game and playing on a server in a group!

Factorio was pretty directly inspired by modded Minecraft in the buildcraft/industrialcraft era.

One of the first public posts about it was on the industrial craft forums: https://forum.industrial-craft.net/thread/8845-factorio/?pos...

Interestingly, Minecraft itself was inspired by a Zachtronics game called Infiniminer

Zachtronics games. They’re all about processes and optimisation but in quite different ways.

Also "Satisfactory", Factory Town, Human Resource Machine, Kubifactorium, and at least one more that I can't remember the name of at the moment.

Some are more programming-like than others.

I've been on the fence about Satisfactory, but I just checked Notch's twitter and the dude is STILL sitting there playing it all day

The man's rich enough to be swimming with whales or partying in space and he's sitting in his basement playing Satisfactory.. there must be something to it

"What other games are like programming?"

Some lesser-known recommendations:

Bitburner (a game in which you use javascript to "hack" computers... not really hacking, but really using your javascript skills)

Screeps (use real programming languages to harvest and compete for resources... sort of like an RTS, but where you program your units instead of directly telling them what to do)

Neon Noodles (use a simple visual programming language to program robots to make sushi... super innovative game, with a free demo on steam... highly recommended)

Mindustry, Dyson Sphere Program, most games by Zachtronics (Spacechem, tis-100, opus magnum), etc.

There are a couple games from Zachtronics that literally have a programming component to them (TIS-100 is almost all programming, but with a weird computer).

Mindustry has a little programming if I recall correctly -- mostly it is tower defense and resource gathering, though.

EDIT: As you can see, everybody was excited to bring up Zachtronics. Really neat developer.

As mentioned, zachtronics games. spacechem is more fun for me because it's not literal programming like TIS-100

minecraft (redstone/technical farms get quite sophisticated)

astroneer

Pretty much any Zachtronics game, for one.

less commonly cited are : - turing complete - The signal state - Screeps - Adventure land - Bitburner

The be fair the 3 last are more programming than like :)

Honest question: What are you trying to achieve by being more productive? What is your end goal?

> I used to be of the opinion that the computer game Factorio was a colossal waste of talent, burning many billions of dollars of GDP every year.

I dunno if the author is joking or not, but I heard this argument over and over. Am I in the minority to think that it's totally insane that everything should revolve around raising the GDP?

I feel smart people working at Facebook or Google working hard at finding new ways to serve more ads to more people is the huge waste of talent.

A charitable interpretation is that it’s an attempt to continue the spectacular growth of labor efficiency that has lifted large sections of the world out of poverty. Doesn’t change that it’s rather silly to constantly think of individual actions’ effect on a macroeconomic measure.

Productivity growth and economic growth aren't the same thing. If you have the first but not the second you have more free time.

(assuming a demurrage currency and land value taxes)

Labor efficiency didn't lift anyone from poverty, social policies did. We are more efficient than any time in history but we still have to work full time to survive.

I agree. GDP is the new religion. All must be sacrificed to increase it.

I'm consciously avoiding Factorio because I know what it would do to me. It already took one of our team members.

As for automation: I'm surprised that scaling is presented as the main - or actually only - reason for automating. I for one don't automate for speed, I automate for correctness.

The other day we discovered that some of the tens-of-megabytes JSONs we're reading on a regular basis have an error: single-element arrays were replaced by that element, so e.g. `[1]` would become just `1`. That was okay for the parser on the receiving end, but not for the recently introduced more efficient serializing module.

I could just go over those files and search all such occurrences by comparing them to the reference type definition - would take less than an hour provided I didn't make any mistakes. But I'm only human, so I opted for something else, namely: drawing from the pile of rich manure that is the npm repository and finding modules for:

1. Generating JSON schemas from TypeScript type definitions.

2. Validating JSON files against JSON schemas.

Armed with these tools I modified the files until the validator confirmed full correctness. Took longer than expected, but now not only can I guarantee that these files are error free, but any future ones as well.

I think scaling is presented as the main - or actually only - reason for automating because it's actually the only reason for automating in the game. Nothing that you can automate in the game can be done incorrectly.

I think game like Factorio shows that level of automation is kind of quantized.

First there is no automation, then one resource is automated but others are not, then several are automatized, but combining them is not. There are gaps where building the next thing doesn't make sense even if it makes sense when you have little bit more resources.

I think this is true in business as well. It's hard to tell when you have crossed the threshold where building the next level makes sense.

You tend to use a lot of time and money to build the next level of automation and only then you can measure if it was worth it or not.

Shopify allowing Factorio to be expensed is really interesting.

Someone higher up must really like it?

A tech company focused on logistics has at least one boss or founder who really likes factorio, the game for and by programmers who like logistics? Who could have guessed^^ It is cool if they let people expense it though, but motivating the 20$ per employee cost is pretty trivial. Compared to similar expenses like a yearly fruit basket, Id wager giving programmers/logistics workers a free factorio probably has a better impact on work performance. I think op is underestimating how much people learn from games, but it is also not exactly a high bar to pass, and Id wager factorio teaches more than most.

I agree that it's chump change. Many startups provide a $100/month budget for "whatever" self tech expenses that can be spent on things like games, etc. This isn't groundbreaking by any means. Still cool that they do it though.

Now comping employees for after-hours time spent playing factario -- now that would be groundbreaking haha

> Id wager giving programmers/logistics workers a free factorio probably has a better impact on work performance.

I'd be skeptical of that claim. I'm sure there would be at least a few engineers that showed up to work pretty tired because the factory needed more iron plates. :-)

Yeah, think I'm less assuming that people wont let it negatively affect their work, as much as assuming that the people for whom it does would have been playing something else with the same effect.

I do :-)

That comment must be on some HN wall of fame next to "Did you win Putnam?" classic.

I didn't know what this was referring to, but after a little bit of digging: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35079

Very cool you do this! Care to elaborate on why?

Tobi the CEO likes it

In theory, finding the ‘Factorio’ aspect of production just-enough management in other games is easy; Big Pharma is a lovely example of this. But instead, I want to talk about Stardew Valley, and the psychological effects of scaling up production.

There is a very popular player mod for Stardew that allows automation of all “click to perform” actions normally operated by the player: Harvest fruit from a tree, Brew honey into mead, Cook wood into coal, Age mead in cask, and so on. Essentially, it introduces the conveyor systems of any production game — Verb Noun With Machine — and uses footpaths as the invisible conveyer belts. It is possible, with careful pathing, to build a farm that is automated from harvest to sale, and generates an endless supply of any product with minimum downtime.

I found that when I applied this approach to Stardew, it was really fun making it work, and once I had it all working, there just wasn’t anything left to enjoy. Not because the game doesn’t have a near-infinite list of things you can produce (especially with mods), but because it turns out that the joy I derived from Stardew is about doing things myself. And so my intricately-pathed full scale production farm sits unopened.

I point this out because in tech we often forget that capacity and automation can, in some cases, be inversely proportional to enjoyment. I could apply a photo editing ML algorithm to my photo library and no doubt it would be nice, but I enjoy the act of taking a photo and fiddling with it, even if I send exponentially fewer photos to my friends. One of them has a complex multi-device “ingestion pipeline” and it treats them well for their purposes, and I’ve built one before, and it turns out I just don’t enjoy digital photography at that scale.

I love playing games like Factorio (though I haven’t gotten much into it yet) for their own sake, and I don’t deny that it’s possible to enjoy the art of scaling and automating these things, and that others feel differently. But my experience with Stardew pipelines was a really useful lessons in learning what I enjoy and when I enjoy it, and when that means I shouldn’t scale it up any further.

Factorio is my favourite game of all time by a country mile. The thing that is so amazing to me is when you first play it and suddenly you realise that what you thought was the goal of the game (to launch the rocket) is literally completely irrelevant and the goal has at some point just become "to play more factorio".

The factory doesn't have to grow to feed the rocket. The factory must grow because it must grow. And you're there to make it grow.

Then pretty soon you've launched hundreds of rockets and you're still thinking "if I can just get my trains working a bit better, remove this bottleneck then I can expand over there..."

The point of life is to automate everything so you can finally quit.

Try Satisfactory. It is beautiful.

Gah, this happened to me literally yesterday, where I started a new Factorio map and had to close it after like an hour because I knew a) how much time I'd be able to sink into the game and b) how similar it was to my day job, which means I could just do my day job and feel 90% of the satisfaction while also earning money doing it.

Rarely does an article online hit me as directly as this one does, good work.

I own a copy of Factorio, yet I never play it. Whenever I think about playing Factorio, I think what I really want to do is emulate biology, not industrial machinery. I want a game that lets me alter genomes slightly and try out several branches to see which ones are better for the world I'm trying to create. I want to fast forward through time so that evolution can run its course, then if I don't like the outcome, I want to be able to go back and try something else. I also want to be able to share evolutionary steps as code (in text form, not graphical!) with a community. The steps should be expressed in a functional language. Effectively, I want my quasi-biological world to take on a life of its own and I want to be able to run reversible experiments on both my worlds and other people's worlds.

That's probably too much to ask. :-)

Early in my software development career, I tried building something like this. It's a really interesting problem, highly recommend trying it yourself. Even with a simple system and very modest skills: it was able to create results that surprised me, which was very rewarding. Copying previously written comment (you might also be interested in the "ALiEn – a GPU-accelerated artificial life simulation program" topic of the thread or other similar projects in the comments)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27476768

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When I was learning to program, I tried to make a toy artificial life evolution simulation. Particle organisms on a 2D plane had 'dna' which was a list of heritable traits, like size, speed, number of offspring. Bigger organisms could eat smaller organisms, but they burn energy faster. 0 energy = death. When two organisms of opposite gender collided and had sufficient energy, they'd give some of their energy split among the offspring, with each offspring's 'dna' values set to one of the parent's +/- 5%. As I was developing this, I hadn't figured out how I wanted to do food yet, so as an easy first step, I just had a constant amount of energy that was split amongst all organisms on the screen. Lots of little dots buzzing around, was kind of neat but nothing too special. I left it to run overnight.

When I came back I was very surprised: previously i was running at about 30FPS - now it was running at about 4 seconds per frame. The screen was filled with dense expanding circles of tiny slow organisms emanating from where organisms had mated and nothing else.

My simulation evolved to outsmart my simple food algorithm: when food is divided equally among all organisms, the best strategy is to use minimal energy and maximize offspring count. I had populated the world with a default offspring count of ~5 and they had evolved to the tens of thousands. The more offspring an organism had, the greater the amount of the energy pool would go to their offspring.

It was a very cool "Life, uh, finds a way" moment - that such a simple toy simulation of evolution was able to find an unanticipated optimal solution to the environment I created overnight was very humbling and gave me a lot of respect for the power of evolution.

Psst. Hey everyone. God's asleep. Let's have like 10,000 kids.

Think you're looking for a game like Spore or the older SimLife, both by Maxis.

There's a "game" called Critterding, which was passable at evolution and stuff, lots of knobs to manipulate the creatures and environment. Then someone made another version called Critterdrug which adds a "shared canvas" that all creatures can see and manipulate if they want/can.

I'm hoping that some day the source code is released, i've talked to the critterding person, but they don't seem amenable to it. Critterdrug is probably my favorite evolutionary algorithm example.

I'll never be able to do the game(s) justice, even if i link a video of the shared screen.

[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0c7nVitl7k

Another recommendation is cellular automata, perhaps combined with some evolutionary algorithms (like genetic algorithms, genetic programming, etc)...

You can use a functional language to program them, or any other kind of language of your own choosing.

You could write your own from scratch or using any one of many libraries to do some of the heavy lifting for you and concentrate on higher level problems.

There's a lot of literature and research on all this, so it's not at all hard to get started if you're in to programming already.

There is an old game called spore that sort of did this.

Check out Gridworld

If you want to add more of the human dynamic to resource management and refactoring, I suggest FrostPunk. While Factorio feels more like managing and scaling code, FrostPunk feels like running a startup. It's rewarding, but very stressful.

0. https://store.steampowered.com/app/323190/Frostpunk/

My understanding is that ForstPunk is more like a Grimdark dystopian climate nightmare than running a startup.

You're right, the theme is a dystopian climate nightmare. The resource management, regular sacrifices, and dealing with growing human problems make it feel like a small company that is struggling to grow and succeed, which is more relatable to me.

"Step 3

Rip up large fractions of the setup and lay them out again with more straight lines and sensibility"

Newb.

You don't rip the first spaghetti base up and rebuild, that's a waste of time.

The first base only exists to get you to the point where you can build a main belt line and then make everything nice and straight and coherent.

The old base just sits abandoned, until the new belt line eventually encroachs, and then you just unceremoniously raze it.

I just don't get this. I feel like people back port their learning experiences to games that have a similar enough structure. A nice observation, but you can't go in the reverse direction by playing Factorio to learn something tangible. Factorio doesn't have the same failure granularity as the real world and so the usefulness of the analogy/mindset just doesn't do it for me.

Plus my skill can be replaced by roughly how well I can memorize other peoples' factory patterns.

Don't get me wrong though, it's a great game, and probably had the same impact for its genre as Doom had for FPS games.

> A nice observation, but you can't go in the reverse direction by playing Factorio to learn something tangible

What about Factorio circuits? :)

Recently discovered Satisfactory. It's roughly GTA2 vs GTA3 when compared to Factorio (2d top down vs 3d open world). I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on the two games and what one does well vs the other. What people get out of either.

Having sunk vastly too many hours into Factorio, and recently just about 'completing' Satisfactory, I think Factorio is the far richer factory game.

Satisfactory's unexpected joy is in exploration, such as finding all the alternative recipes. However mid game starts to be a bit of a drag, and late game is borderline miserable (the Smart! mod helps tremendously but I'm talking vanilla-only experience here). In particular in satisfactory you never out-tech problems. You never get tools to help you start abstracting away details like you do in Factorio with construction bots, beacons, modules, and substations.

Satisfactory makes me want to design & build pretty or well laid out factories. But since it doesn't give me any tools to help with that, I end up with just floating slabs in the sky of endlessly repeated simple connections.

Factorio feels far more rewarding when you come up with clever layouts for things, as you can then copy/paste it. Or design it to be modular for later expansion. There's the metagame there if making things tileable for rapid expansion later on. Satisfactory largely doesn't have that. It's too painful to expand anything, so it's all one & done stuff

The copy/paste/blueprint feature of Factorio has ruined every other logistics game for me. Used to love the Anno series until I got Factorio.

Satisfactory is more designed for social interaction. That alone makes it worthwhile.

I suspect this is part of my own mindset. Satisfactory is all about watching the sunset over your factory as you goof around with good friends after a real world hard days work. There's no frantic action to be had by design. The factory is slower.

I really didn't like Factorio at all. It's either too frantic with enemies or just a grind with no enemies. I'm always down for Satisfactory and beer with friends though. That game has a relax and chill factor like no other.

Satisfactory is smaller scale (resource patches far apart, most of the build being about transport and linking a few buildings together, power being harder to achieve, and overall feels resource constrained) and Factorio feels like a blank canvas to paint factory on.

From the footnote: > In CS terms, expanding a poorly-specced and unmaintainable Factorio base is O(log(n)) while expanding a perfectly specced one is O(n), but the coefficient on the first is massively higher.

Shouldn't this be the other way around? Speccing out requires higher upfront effort, meaning a higher coefficient, but ultimately results in better long term results in overall required effort, for an O(log(n)) graph.

Factorio is an SRE game if there ever was one. It comes with graphs and dashboards. You can create audible alerts. The QPS (errr, biters) will come and the factory better be ready. Success failure is a thing.

Dyson Sphere Program is a similar type of game, with prettier graphics.

Shoutout to Satisfactory. I've seen many players that resonate with Dyson Sphere Program also enjoy Satisfactory. Not quite as in-depth as Factorio, but an amazingly, amazingly well designed game in both over experience and gameplay.

The logistical puzzles in it are... Unfortunately, a lot less interesting (And these games, by design, are all about logistical puzzles. Feeding stuff into an assembler isn't interesting - getting your stuff to the point where you can feed it into an assembler is.)

The logistics network is too powerful, pilers don't really change how items move around, and fluids/gases/solids are treated the same.

Satisfactory is IMO a superior Factorio in that it drops the Tower Defense and resource-depletion mechanics. It's also in 3d.

I can understand that Factorio is balanced differently but it's annoying to build up a factory and then need to do non-factory things when a resource runs out or aliens attack your base.

> Satisfactory is IMO a superior Factorio

Early game I agree, but mid/late game I couldn't disagree more. Satisfactory desperately needs a construction bot or blueprints or something to help you build at the scales it starts pushing you towards, or you just afk forever. Also the ticket loop as the endless resource sink is far less interesting than factorio's endless research paths.

Aliens are just another automation problem, and are really no different than working on the factory itself.

I actually think the resource depletion mechanics are the one thing missing from Satisfactory. Constantly adjusting to keep the raw materials flowing in is one of the things that keeps Factorio from getting stale for me.

For what it's worth, the aliens are a completely optional part of the game. I almost always play with them disabled now so I can focus on the more fun parts of the game.

Also some mods can counteract resource depletion if desired.

The feeling when you get coal setup for the first time...

I play Factorio without the biters and with the resource richness jacked way up. Problem solved.

Satisfactory - even prettier

I love Factorio!

If you've completed enough of the base game, I can recommend Seablock (which includes AngelBob) and Space Exploration as two mods that make the game dramatically larger. I played some of Pyanodon (which is also sometimes mentioned as a big mod) but I found it kind of gratuitously complex.

I feel compelled to repost a comment of mine from the simutrans thread:

—

So, this is totally pop-evolutionary-psychology, but I think the relevant predisposition is towards hoarding. For 100,000 generations, humans (and our ancestors before then) have had to gather and store food and other supplies to see them through the winter (or other hard times). We are wired to do this because we would have died out if we didn’t.

Building games let you build up your hoard of stuff (whether trains, rails, buildings, tiberium silos, green circuits, …) in a tight feedback loop that repeatedly triggers the “this is my stuff, now I am safe” dopamine response.

This also explains collecting hobbies, and goes some way towards explaining the desire for wealth acquisition in general.

In keynesian economics the desire to hoard is known as liquidity preference because you want things you hoard to be immediately accessible i.e. liquid and require compensation to cease keeping something immediately available.

Most physical objects deteriorate over time which makes gold inspired money an exceptionally poor way to keep track of things because the things that deteriorate disappaer but the gold that represents the things that deteriorated did not. So people hold onto gold or money without limit as it does not capture the full cost of deterioration leading to an imminent crisis in an economy that is not growing because the ponzi scheme has been exposed.

I famously only play video games that increase GDP.

Free exploration, experimentation, self-expression, fun?! - only in the name of GDP!

One of my top gaming moments ever was launching the rocket in under 6 hours. I launched it at 5:59:40. Then I realized the "There is no spoon" achievement was for 7 hours (and it's now 8 hours after 1.0 launch).

Love this game.

I love programming and I hate games like Factorio where you're (to a degree) doing the same thing with logical thinking and optimization etc.pp. (I like games and I like puzzles, but this feels like work to me, in a language I hate, with an IDE I hate and with no undo).

At least this article doesn't tell me I will love this and I should play it, unlike all the others. So thumbs up for the article :P

I’m in the same boat but I wonder if that’s just because we’re programmers and anything short of perfection is time wasted for us.

When you’re first starting out, it feels amazing to input two numbers, add them together, and print them out to the console. When you’re a professional programmer, it feels like you’re wasting time if you’re not defensively coding against future concerns and potential feature needs.

Likewise in Factorio, I can’t enjoy success in any part of the game because I feel that any investment in one level could potentially be taking away from planning for the next level. Level, in this case, being the current level of technology researched in the game.

I realize that this is irrational but I surely can’t be alone on this.

Please please try Satisfactory. It's a beautiful, 3D equivalent. Holds a coveted Overwhelmingly Positive on Steam.

There is also Dyson Sphere Program with similar reviews.

I found that it didn't scale as much as Factorio. I'm the type with over 3K hours in the game, who likes to build absurdly massive bases.

I like Satisfactory mostly because you get to enjoy the native flora and fauna without it constantly trying to kill you.

More than just the native flora and fauna, Satisfactory dumps you in an area that's largely pleasant to be in. Factorio has a very desaturated, green-and-brown "videogame" look, and it's not all that pleasant to look at after a while.

Thank you for yet another reminder that it sucks to be a mac user :-)

A "mac user" isn't who you are as a person. It's who you're being in a moment of time. If you want to play PC games, buy a machine that handles playing them and use it for those instances. In this case, it looks like they only released Satisfactory on Windows, with mostly good results playing on Linux using Proton.

https://www.protondb.com/app/526870

Factorio seems to run on macOS and SteamOS + Linux.

Streaming clients like GeForce Now have come a long way if you want to play games as a Mac user. It's what I use to play Satisfactory and it works really well in my opinion.

I think that a Factorio style interface for datacenter layout would be great. Saastorio.

Layout your process and point it at your cloud service(s). Monitoring built in.

To anyone bored with vanilla Factorio, I'd strongly recommend trying out some of its hundreds of mods.

As much as I love vanilla Factorio, mods make it 10x better for me, and solve all sorts of little complaints and annoyances in the vanilla game.

If there's something in the vanilla game you don't like or want to improve, odds are there's already a mod that fixes it for you.

What are your fav mods?

Most of the mods I use are utility and convenience mods... here are some of my favorites:

= Todo List - don't know how I ever lived without this mod, which I use to keep track of what I need to do next... absolutely essential for larger bases. I really wish it could be used 100% from the keyboard, but it's still good despite requiring the use of a mouse.

= Angel's Addons - Storage Options - the only one of the Angel mods I use... it gives me much larger storage containers, like warehouses, so I don't have to bother with the annoyance of dealing with lots of tiny containers

= Attila's Zoom Mod - lets me zoom much further out than the vanilla game does, also lets me view specific positions on the map very quickly and reliably

= Auto Deconstruct - marks drills for deconstruction once the resources they're mining run out... just a nice little convenience mod that stays out of the way 99% of the time, and simply makes the game just a little bit smoother in that I don't have to manually find any of the drills that need deconstructing

= Belt reverser - quickly reverse belts... saves so much time. This should really be in the base game.

= Bob's adjustable inserters - a quick and easy way to adjust where inserters pick up and drop off to... should also really be part of the vanilla game

= Closest first - make construction bots build and deconstruct close things first.. don't know why this isn't the default

= Even Distribution - super useful way of quickly distributing resources over many consumers, instead of loading resources to one consumer at a time.. should also be in the base game, imo

= Exploration Vehicle 1.1 - lets vehicles run over and destroy trees and rocks in the way

= Explosive Termites - quickly destroy annoying trees. There's a Tree Deleter mod I used to use until it stopped working. That was good too, and even faster than the termites.

= Far Reach - some might consider it cheating, but I just find it annoying and a waste of time to always run back and forth across the screen to do something... this lets me do it from anywhere on the screen.. with a zoom mod, my reach becomes even greater.. both of these together with some turrets make fighting vanilla biters too easy, so if you want to fight biters with this combination I'd recommend using a biter enhancement mod like Rampant to make the biters more of a challenge

= Fill4Me - auto-fill items with fuel/ammo when you place them... very convenient. See the above note on the Far Reach mod, as this is another mod that together with Far Reach and the zoom mod makes fighting the biters too easy.

= Ingos Advanced Start - gives you a bunch of bots and an exoskeleton to start with.. I love this, as I really don't enjoy the slow speed and slow construction/deconstruction rate that I'm stuck with in the early game... this lets me get to the fun parts of the game faster. Not recommended for one's first playthrough, but I find it essential afterwards.

= Inventory Repair - uses repair packs auto repair items in one's inventory.. another nice convenience mod that just does the right thing without interaction

= Laser Lines - super useful for aligning stuff perfectly

= Land Mover - dig holes to make landfill... with the Far Reach and a zoom mod using landfill will let you make 100% secure barriers against biters. Some might consider this cheating, others a welcome relief. I just turned off biters completely eventually, so it doesn't matter to me now, but the mod is still useful to me for crossing lakes and the like.

= LTN - Logistics Train Network - not an easy mod to learn to use, but totally worth it for large train networks, and my favorite of mods of its kind, but I'd use it with LTN Combinator and LTN Content Reader for more convenience

= Miniloader - very quick loaders and unloaders that don't impact UPS nearly as much as some similar mods

= Nixie Tubes - a nice way to display info about various signals

= Power+: Power Utilization Meter - adds signals showing useful information about your power networks

= Splatter Guard - keeps you from being run over by trains.. there are a bunch of other mods like this, which I haven't tried... probably anything that does the same thing will be good enough

= Squeak Through - absolutely essential mod that lets you walk through tight spaces you otherwise couldn't

= Train Network for Players - an easy way to call a passenger train to your location

= Vacuum Cleaner - quickly pick up stuff on belts or from the ground.. much more convenient than the vanilla method

= Where is my body - shows where you died... lots of mods to do this sort of thing.. any of them are probably good. Something like this should probably be part of the vanilla game too.

I use many, many, many more mods (over 100 in total).. but this should be a good start for just about anyone.

I've also disabled biters in my games, because I just find them annoying at this point, but when I had them enabled I also liked to use the Rampant mod to make them more challenging, and a bunch of improved weapon mods like Modular Turrets, which I remember liking.

I got addicted to Dyson Sphere Program... already clocked in 100s of hours, pretty much embarrassed to admit how much I play the game.

Restarted it few times to apply what I learned. It is still early in the game, they keep adding things but that thing is really amazing and provided fun to me that I didn't feel in the game for a long time.

> I used to be of the opinion that the computer game Factorio was a colossal waste of talent, burning many billions of dollars of GDP every year.

Oh no, the GDP!

I appreciate most of the rest of the article, but the premise that it's value is tied to it's ability to influence one economic metric is a very flawed lens to view the world through.

I really like builder games (Anno series) but haven't picked up factorio due to concerns of time sink.

Instead tinkering more with self-hosting stuff lately. I find it scratches the same itch - building / optimisation / problem solving vibe but has a slightly more tangible enduring value (something useful + learning)

Anyone else really want to get into Factorio, but an hour into it realised it just felt like work and quit?

Personally I feel like Factorio reveals a principle I also see at my day job. Automation is exhausting. ;-)

Growth is exhausting, no?

I think a missing factor here that hasn't really been brought up is Teambuilding. Factorio lends itself to multiplayer very well, and a team working together to solve problems that are not dissimilar to the coding projects they have at work can be easily worth $20.

I love Factorio. One of my top 10 best games ever. I am currently playing Satisfactory as well. It is equally good and share a lot of things with Factorio but also has a nice exploratory feel to it.

This person sounds absolutely insane going on about GDP lost to people enjoying themselves. That said Factorio is much more psychopathic than GTA has ever been

So, what about Dwarf Fortress? (Would anyone recommend Factorio over Dwarf Fortress?)

"How Much Are Games Like Factorio And EVE Online Sapping Away The Intellectual Potential Of Humanity?"

https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/ml00ac/how_...

> (it should probably be renamed "Refactorio")

great observation :)

Satisfactory is a less frustrating version of Factorio.

Every once in a while on the HN front page you get some article about a programming analogy or an entrepreneurship analogy.

"Here's why the game factorio is like programming or here's why it's like life. yada yada yada"

Yeah, AND this guy takes the next step and turns the analogy into a "mindset."

Great. Revolutionary. First off.. analogy is amazing. Second... turning that analogy into a way of life blows my mind. Is your mind blown too? This guy is a genius.

The next step, (and I've seen plenty of this on HN), is to turn that analogy into a full blown "theory" of some sort... complete with diagrams.

I mean, out of most of the analogy examples posted to HN, Factorio is actually a good one. The observations that the writer makes are all immediately apparent when you fire up the game, and there isn't anything here that I'd call a "deep cut" or a strained metaphor.

Factorio can literally be renamed "Iterative Development: The Game" and players wouldn't find anything confusing about any of it.

>I mean, out of most of the analogy examples posted to HN, Factorio is actually a good one

I think all the analogies I've seen are good. The problem is they're obvious. They don't really bring anything new to the table.

Great you identified an analogy. Big deal?

And yet, there's always at least one HN reader who makes a comment in every popular thread that the original post is irrelevant in some way.

Still, it never seems to stop people from doing it despite not "bringing anything new to the table" with their comment. So why do it?

It seems like this is merely someone's opinion that Factorio may have some transferable skills, namely a mindset-- along with the limitations-- of automation.

I'm not sure why this would be so frustrating for you. It's not like the author themselves went down your slippery slope to full blown theory. If they had? Sure, that would be a bit of the usually breathless attempts at "thoughtleading", but I see no need for preemptive criticism.

Also congratulations for being really tall. I'm about average height.

I'm frustrated because these types of opinions are everywhere. Especially factorio:

https://www.google.com/search?q=factorio+is+like+programming

There are tons and tons of these.

I program, and I've played Factorio. It feels kind of like programming, so it does not frustrate me that such an opinion can be found everywhere.

Is it your opinion that Factorio does not have elements of gameplay that require (or benefit from) an approach to what is used in programming?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com