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Comment by concinds | Hacker News Reader

Android users are still vulnerable, and these announcements do nothing to reduce that. All a stalker needs to do, is remove the speaker. To detect a rogue AirTag, an Android owner needs to:

1) know AirTags exist (many obviously don't)

2) go out of their way to install Apple's Android AirTag scanner app (only 100k-500k worldwide have done so according to Google Play stats)

3) manually open the scanner app and scan, since it doesn't scan passively in the background; and even then, it won't help you find the speaker-less AirTag, since it doesn't tell you proximity & direction.

I continue to think Apple should have never released AirTags to the public, and should discontinue it. It's a very limited income stream, with limited use cases, and significantly increases the average person's risk of stalking.

Practically all positive social media coverage of AirTags involves someone tracking a stolen stolen items (car, bike). Those use cases are dead, since thieves with iPhones will get alerts, and most thieves with Android will know to scan for AirTags. And since most lost items turn into stolen items after a few hours, that removes most use cases involving losing objects in public.

That leaves "finding your keys within your home" as the only truly "officially supported" use case. Is that worth all the problems, and brand damage?

People will argue that stalkers could always buy trackers, but Apple increased their availability, ease-of-acquisition and ease-of-use by orders of magnitude. AirTags are cheaper than competing GPS trackers, most of which require subscriptions.

I remember seeing a chills-down-your-spine Apple Watch Series 7 TV ad, that featured beautiful remote nature landscapes, with the audio of 911 calls made from people's Apple Watches whose lives were saved by their Watch. Probably one of Apple's best and most impactful ad in the past decade. Compare that to AirTag's impact on Apple's brand. Why did Apple even bother?

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Like sibling post mentioned, you don't seem to be the target audience. I know a lot of people, friends and family, who constantly leave stuff behind, in restaurants, other people's places, on the train, in shops, you name it. 99% of the time, no one's gonna steal it, but trying to figure out where the hell you left something, if you do leave stuff behind often, becomes increasingly difficult. With something like an Airtag, it's no longer an issue. You get altered before you get too far, and even if you do, you can figure out later where your stuff is.

I once left my umbrella in a hire car. It took me 2 weeks to realize it was missing. Turns out no one touched it and I could see it on the map, in the parking lot of the hire car company. So I showed up, and within minutes, we pinned down which car it was in. Without Airtag, I would not even remember where I could have possibly left it, after two weeks! Learnt my lesson to turn on separation alert after that.

Now I need a smaller Airtag for my sunglasses — expensive and easy to leave behind.

Needing an Airtag is like needing a case for your phone. A lot of people keep dropping their phone so they put a case on it. In 13 years of owning a smart phone, I've never dropped mine. But I don't claim that phone cases are only useful if you throw your partner's phone off the balcony after a fight.

How expensive is your umbrella? Just curious.

$50-ish — but that's not the point. I value my belongings because I spend great deal of time researching and finding products that I love using day in day out (unlike most people who constantly curse at stuff they have). I also modify things I buy to fine tune it to my needs. So even a $50 umbrella is more like $1000 in terms of time I've spent on it and I have no intention of doing it again. This particular umbrella was purchased 20 years ago in Spain.

The notion of an umbrella lasting 20 years boggles my mind. I've never had one last more than 2–3 years and I don't use them much. I've looked for premium umbrellas before but every time I find one that isn't ridiculously priced, there's always a contingent of reviewers who insist that it fell apart in heavy wind or frequent use.

Normally I buy $10 umbrellas from Australia's big hardware store chain. They aren't great but they're easily robust enough to last for a year or two. (Cheap umbrellas from anywhere else tend to break if you look at them funny, and they rust if you get them wet.)

I'd be willing to pay $120 AUD (or $80 USD) for an umbrella that was seriously good quality, recognising that the economics imply that it would need to last for at least a decade to be cost competitive.

> I'd be willing to pay $120 AUD (or $80 USD) for an umbrella that was seriously good quality

https://au.davekny.com/ has good stuff although I haven't had one long enough (only 5 years) to attest its durability.

They also have some promising guarantee terms: https://au.davekny.com/pages/lifetime-guarantee

I’ve been using a small folding umbrella from MUJI that I bought 8 years ago. Not particularly expensive.

My partner has probably been through about ten umbrellas in the same time-span, because she was reluctant to spend the modest extra amount for something she doubted would last so long. I recently bought her the same model of umbrella from MUJI, although it’s too early to say whether the company has maintained the build quality.

I think it’s this one (but hard to tell on their awful website) https://www.muji.eu/pages/online.asp?PID=14951&qclr=45503441...

Approximately twice what I was hoping to pay, but damn those are some wild guarantees.

Yeah same. Seems worth it though. I’ve spent more than $200 over the last 5-10 years on umbrellas easily.

You should get Sam Vimes to tell you about his boots.

Like for many products there is an entire segment of the market that most people never even know exists. E.g. premium umbrellas that are made to last against wind and wear. I have this one, has so far lasted close to 10 years.

https://www.senz.com/

My wife had a small one around the time you bought yours. Started to rust after a few uses... I guess that sort of demonstrates GPs point.

I would guess a lot of people would bet such market segment exists, but are unable to find a manufacturer/seller. Since higher price often doesnt mean higher quality, its hard to distinguish expensive tools that will last decades from similarly priced tools that wont last as much.

It's certainly possible to build and even buy a very robust umbrella. I suspect the reason most people don't is that they know they're going to be lost or stolen.*

It's why Amsterdam bicyclists don't ride $5000 bikes.

*Especially in Tokyo. If you drop a wallet full of cash on the street in Tokyo, someone will chase you down to return it. But if you turn your back on your umbrella in Tokyo, kiss it goodbye. Then you have to steal another one.

I have a confession. A first time visitor from a small European town to a Japanese city last millennium, it was raining and a department store had buckets with mostly white or transparent umbrellas by the door.

How civilized, I thought, that a company would provide free umbrellas to shoppers when it rains, and so I took one.

Turns out that's where you out your umbrella when entering the store...

That's what everybody there does. I don't think the story is "everybody in Japan is honest except about umbrellas" but rather that the Japanese simply consider umbrellas to be community property.

I have a Bunnings umbrella that has lasted 10yrs, but to be fair, I do live in the sunshine state.

My last Fulton umbrella lasted me nearly a decade of London drizzle and Sydney torrential rain until I left it on a plane a couple of months ago.

Sports direct (of all places) ships them to Australia and they are around half of your budget (https://au.sportsdirect.com/fulton).

Parapluies de Cherbourg are definively worth the deal.

https://parapluiedecherbourg.com/en/

Please create or point me to your product review site!

Well, the $50 umbrella to last decades and the "tag things with sentimental/shopping research value" thing is not exactly the big motivator for AirTags, or a representative anecdotal case.

I have a bike, with a lock more expensive than the bike itself. Since I value the time that would be necessary to replace the stolen item, not to mention the disturbance caused upon loss.

Totally agree with your point.

With how easy it is to lose an umbrella, and how difficult it is to retrieve most of the time, I prefer to think of umbrella as disposable items. Depending on where you live, your need for umbrellas might be different, but a significant amount of time, say ~20%, i need an umbrella and don't have one, so I end up buying some disposable version anyway.

Some things have value beyond what you pay at the till.

> you don't seem to be the target audience

You are missing the point.

They are not the target audience, but they are affected negatively by it regardless. It's for Apple users at the expense of everyone else.

The criticism is not about the individual utility of airtags, it's about how it creates a privacy issue for everyone who is not an Apple user.

> You are missing the point.

And you should read past the first line.

> The criticism is not about the individual utility of airtags, it's about how it creates a privacy issue for everyone who is not an Apple user.

In the same manner, it’s not about utility of individual phone cases, it’s about all the plastic waste it creates for the whole planet.

I suppose if nobody but you ever handles your phone, that might not be an issue. I rarely drop my phones but in a household with kids, that's no guarantee. I put cases on every phone I have.

> That leaves "finding your keys within your home" as the only truly "officially supported" use case.

That is hardly true. Case in point - my wife put down her keys at a store and managed to leave without noticing (this was early after AirTags hit the market). I was driving and we left without recognizing that a few hundred dollars of keys had been lost.

Later that day, we noticed. She called a few stores all said there were no keys found. We then tracked the AirTag - and in fact, it was at the store. We returned and were able to locate it, at one of the registers in a lost and found. We never would have found that it not for the AirTag.

Since then, we’ve used them to not leave things behind, to find things lost at home and elsewhere. There are indeed many legitimate uses despite your want to claim otherwise.

>I was driving and we left without recognizing that a few hundred dollars of keys had been lost.

What do you mean by "a few hundred dollars of keys?" Do hardware stores charge more than a few dollars per key in your area? Were these private keys to a crypto wallet?

If your car has a smart key, it can be over $100 to replace and another $100 to have a dealer or locksmith re-program it.

Edit, more things that are expensive:

- if you live in an apartment with nfc entry, they might charge an arm and a leg to replace it, even if the actual device is only a few dollars

- IDK how much it costs to replace an apartment mailbox key, but I've been warned that if you lose one they need to re-key the whole mailbox

- maybe you don't feel safe with a house key in the wild and need to re-key your house (same for your car/s)

- if you have work keys, they might over-charge to replace lost keys

And the AirTag is another $30!

Don't forget the $349 Hermès AirTag holder

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMN73AM/A/airtag-herm%C3%...

To be fair, that includes an AirTag :)

> if you live in an apartment with nfc entry, they might charge an arm and a leg to replace it, even if the actual device is only a few dollars

That's just theft — plain and simple. The only half valid argument I've heard is to discourage carelessness leading to loss of the key and weakening of the building security. But that's moot in places where the garage gate is broken and left open half the year (my current place) or where people can casually wait for someone to walk in and tail gate them without anyone complaining.

By the way, I purchased a proxmark a long time ago to play with and to date, it has paid for itself many times over, by allowing me to carry my building keys the way I like to (cards vs bulky key fobs) by duplicating them where otherwise it would cost $100 or impossible.

Can't wait for keys on Apple Wallet to become mainstream.

At first I thought you bought the proxmark with the purpose of dating. Also, how does the proxmark work? Does it store the signal of a card key or something like that?

It reads content of RFID tags. Once you have the content, you can write it onto another tag and essentially duplicate the key.

Some tags are easier to read than others. But so far, with a bit of digging around the net, I've been able to read various key cards and copy them.

Unfortunately, it's accurate. Theft is what I'd call the racket that is management companies in London.

In my case, with a London apartment, it's an "Administrative Fee", £150 to replace your lost fob.

Then for my costs as an individual, it was not only that fee, but also new locks for external door(s) and mail box, another administrative fee for the communal meter cabinet/room key, new Kensington lock and a car key/fob when my wife's keys were "lost in a known location yet never again found".

That is to say, "losing" those keys is a £300-500 affair.

- USB drives

- U2F authentication keys

- really expensive AirTag holders (https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMN73AM/A/airtag-herm%C3%...)

Do hardware stores charge more than a few dollars per key in your area?

A replacement key for my wife's car costs $1,200. And it's not even a newer, or expensive car.

It's been a long time since you could get many car keys done at a hardware store.

And it's not even the electronics anymore. One locksmith I called said it's about the fancy engraving. They can't afford the tools to do that kind of work, and they just refer people to the dealer and to suck up the $1,200.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if that might have been covered under insurance.

Curious which manufacturer... Porsche or Audi?

VW are also in that price range. I think I paid $850…

Neither. As I said, it's not an expensive car. It's actually quite ordinary.

Proximity key fobs at $100+ each and programming which can run $80-100 each, a few house keys (I change the locks of keys have been out of my control in a way that can plausibly be tied to my identity, lest someone make a copy and turn up uninvited - that’s another $100+), and $30 for an air tag.

I didn’t make up those numbers.

Oh wow, I thought maybe it was a typo. Thanks for the details!

Yeah - I learned the hard way a while back when someone in our household misplaced another key… and found it right after we’d replaced it/paid all that.

fyi, If you ever have to get your locks rekeyed again, ask for a kwikset smartkey cylinder.

Its a clever little device that will let you rekey a lock yourself with a new key as long as you still have at least one of the original keys.

Uh, no. See The Lockpicking Lawyers videos on Kwikset Smartkey cylinders, including: https://youtu.be/XqsAFdFsQmQ

> What do you mean by "a few hundred dollars of keys?" Do hardware stores charge more than a few dollars per key in your area?

If you're living in an apartment complex or skyscraper, re-keying can get extremely expensive.

> Android users are still vulnerable, and these announcements do nothing to reduce that.

I feel like this is ignoring the fact that if any company other than Apple made these trackers, it wouldn't do this with anyone's phones. The fact that these work out of the box with iPhones is a bonus, not an entitlement that any phone of any brand should have full support for them without installing any apps and without the user even knowing that the product exists.

> All a stalker needs to do, is remove the speaker.

I guess they could make the packaging more tamper resistant somehow, but again this is kind of shifting the goals a bit. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every device will be physically resistant to modifications that would enhance illegal use. An iPhone with the speaker removed and screen cable cut to look dead would make a pretty good tracker too.

> AirTags are cheaper than competing GPS trackers, most of which require subscriptions.

If you are risking prison time to commit premeditated violence, I think you can spare a few extra bucks for the best technology available. I'm pretty sure professional hitman services run well into the trunk loaded with bags of cash territory.

The fact that these work out of the box with iPhones is a bonus, not an entitlement that any phone of any brand should have full support for them without installing any apps and without the user even knowing that the product exists.

Isn't this the whole clue, rather than just a bonus? When someone slips an AirTag on to you every single iPhone in the world forms a sort of ad-hoc spying network against you. Without you or the iPhone's owners knowing.

You can opt out of participating in this spy network, and probably should Settings -> (tap your apple id card at the top) -> Find My -> Find my iPhone -> turn off “Find My Network”

That doesn't change a thing. 99,99% of iPhone users won't do this.

I wasn’t saying that it’s not a problem because you can opt out, I was saying if this stuff concerns you there is a small but tangible step you can take right now

> I feel like this is ignoring the fact that if any company other than Apple made these trackers, it wouldn't do this with anyone's phones.

Right, and Apple have provided everything that AOSP would need to implement this, someone even made their own version of the entire Find My client long ago (https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack), so technically AOSP could even integrate using Find My, although I imagine Apples lawyers would have a field day with this if they did.

Identifying the AirTags has also been implemented as a background service by the same organisation as above (https://github.com/seemoo-lab/AirGuard).

> I guess they could make the packaging more tamper resistant somehow, but again this is kind of shifting the goals a bit. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every device will be physically resistant to modifications that would enhance illegal use. An iPhone with the speaker removed and screen cable cut to look dead would make a pretty good tracker too.

This. Plus, the noise AirTags make isn't the only way of finding them, you get the notifications, and soon (when the changes mentioned in the article are implemented) it'll be easier to find them using precision finding.

I wonder if Apple one day decides to put AirTags into iPhones and other iDevices - or if other vendors follow suit. Basically, that would eliminate phone theft since even shutting the phone off or, for those phones that still have replaceable batteries, removing said battery would still be discoverable.

Phones will still be stolen for spare parts. I don't see how that ever stops being a thing.

Yes, but they will now leave a breadcrumb location trail that can be followed up by the authorities, unless thieves become smart enough to disable the embedded AirTag while still on the road - and if that becomes hard enough to be infeasible, theft will become too risky.

iPhones can already be tracked after power off via the Find Me network. But as far as I know removing the internal battery would still stop it. More importantly, so would a Farady cage.

Stolen iPhones should already be parts only because of activation lock.

Maybe you don't lose stuff as much as other people? My brother was always complaining about losing his wallet, his keys, anything you can think of. I got him a tile, but their product wasn't very accurate. Got him airtags and the problem is solved. Not only are air tags useful, but I'm sure that there are people who would be willing to switch to iOS solely to get access to airtags. That seems pretty valuable to apple.

> Maybe you don't lose stuff as much as other people?

I relate to it and respect it, but it's doubtful anyone would switch to iPhone because of AirTags. Samsung and others also make trackers, and you don't need the Find My network if you lost your keys inside your house, any tracker will do.

> Not only are air tags useful, but I'm sure that there are people who would be willing to switch to iOS surely to get access to airtags.

After a Google search, I can't find a single anecdote of this from reddit or elsewhere. I doubt it's even a blip on Apple's balance sheet.

From the sound of things the airtags have been legitimately life changing for him. I know that sounds hard to believe, I certainly didn't at first but never losing stuff really seems like a weight off his mind. You're right, there's probably no evidence of people switching to apple for airtags, but that might be because they're such a new and relatively unknown product.

I don't know how common this is, but I bought AirTags as a way to keep track of checked bags when traveling. That is a use-case that specifically benefits from being able to keep track of something outside of my phone's range where full GPS/cell connectivity would be overkill.

My mom likes her iPhone for other reasons but she loves her air tags. She can find her keys in her house, her purse at a party, and her car in a parking lot. She's never leaving the apple ecosystem now.

How much and how hard does your mom party?

They’re a lifesaver for me with unmedicated adult ADHD. I’ve been substantially more on-time to events, appointments, etc. since I put an air tag on my keys and wallet. Several of my friends have commented on it. Tile trackers were horribly inaccurate and either had non-replacable batteries or would eat a battery a month. Airtags have been lightyears better.

Perhaps removing them from the Find My network and only operating locally would be a better option, but I just can’t see them going back on it at this point.

The later Tiles did have replaceable batteries. But they did still suck at being located when lost. Once I tried marking my tile as lost and carried it with me in Barcelona including on busy subways and it took 1 month to get a ping :)

They just didn't have the reach that Apple has, by far.

Before I left my house this afternoon, I had misplaced my keys. Unfortunately I tend to be a little absent minded. I used my AirTags to find them in 30 seconds. I commented to my friend as I was walking out how these AirTags have save me hours during the week, because I would often 20+ dozens minutes searching for my wallet, keys, or e reader.

I am so happy that these exist.

Trackers have been around for years. Tile came out in 2014, and Samsung has their own Galaxy tracker line for a while now. Neither have anti-stalking features of any kind to this day. If one was stuck on your car, you wouldn't get an alert or any info on who placed it there, be you an iPhone user or an Android user. And before that, there were GPS trackers which have bigger batteries and were more accurate (if a bit larger and clumsier). But Apple apparently has done it with anti-stalking features but is too high-profile.

We can have nice things even if they can get abused, stalkers are going to stalk and have superior alternatives without Apple. These new features are solely intended to scare them off into using their old methods. So if stalkers are going to do what they do anyway, I might as well find my items, thanks.

Edit: Also, in your own point, you say "AirTags are cheaper than competing GPS trackers, most of which require subscriptions."

Has a tracker costing too much ever stopped a stalker? For a creep, the difference between $25 one time and $10-20 a month for a more-accurate GPS tracker is unimportant. They'll pay the price of Netflix to continue their creepiness.

> But Apple apparently has done it with anti-stalking features but is too high-profile.

Remember that stalking isn't a profession; it's often a crime of opportunity, with plenty of reported cases of e.g. people slipping GPS trackers into spouses' cars/bags before or during divorces.

Those people aren't sophisticated, and might go on Amazon and see Tiles that won't work (sparse detection network), or GPS trackers that cost the same as AirTags and have a monthly subscription. Or they could just pick a spare AirTag they have, and use that, because they know their spouse has an Android and wouldn't detect it.

Again, the problem isn't that AirTags have been nerfed into uselessness because of anti-stalking protection. The problem is that AirTags still, to this day, present a major Android stalking risk (no AirTags notifications on Android with Apple's app, you have to manually scan), and Apple seems uninterested in doing anything about it (or even promising to do anything about it, since this announcement doesn't mention Android).

> Those people aren't sophisticated

It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity.

> "problem is that AirTags still, to this day, present a major Android stalking risk"

Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them. Also, considering how long Tile has been on the market, this doesn't seem like a new issue. Also, Apple has built-in "Find My Friends" in iPhone. A stalker could just flip that on without telling the person being stalked (assuming he/she is close to him/her), and the phone would be tracking them, no tag necessary. Yet nobody ever hears about this being abused much.

> "AirTags have been nerfed into uselessness because of anti-stalking protection"

Hey, if I lose my wallet in my own home, it's great. If I can't find my wallet at the gas station, I can figure out where in the car it fell. There are plenty of ways it is still plenty useful. Also, if you are complaining about uselessness, maybe Apple should roll-back some anti-stalking protections but you'd be against that too.

This leaves you in the impossible position of wanting Apple to restrict it more (reduce stalking) and simultaneously unlock it more (to improve utility), all while competitors don't bother with stalking prevention at all.

It feels like you're twisting my words.

I never said Apple should unlock it more, I said they should discontinue it, and their executives displayed poor judgment in approving the product.

I never argued that AirTags were nerfed into uselessness, I responded to your argument that they were nerfed into becoming useless for stalking, which I don't think is true.

> Ironically, so did Tile for the last 8 years, and Samsung's own Galaxy trackers for Android, but there is no outcry about them

Plenty of people have iPads catching dust in drawers, who would never have bought Android tablets (or any tablet) if the iPad had never existed. It's the power of Apple's marketing. Anytime I argue against AirTags, I argue that availability is a game-changer, and nobody actually tried to address this argument convincingly.

- Someone at a club or rave might impulsively or drunkenly decide to remove the AirTag they use for their keyring, and slip it into someone's pocket. They might never have bought a tracker if Apple didn't have one.

- Again, the iPad-catching-dust-in-a-drawer argument. Plenty of people buy Apple products on a whim who would never have considered that product category if the Apple product didn't exist. iPads popularized tablets, Apple Watches popularized smartwatches (at least among US teens), AirPods popularized bluetooth earphones). Apple's marketing doesn't just increase sales for their products, it promotes the entire product category. People hear about iPad, are interested, and might buy an iPad or a cheaper competitor; when they would never have bought a tablet if the iPad hadn't created a "halo effect". You can argue the effect is less for AirTags, but don't tell me it's nonexistent!

- The copycat effect is strong among criminals. Ransomware attacks were almost nonexistent, and became common very rapidly, as awareness spread among criminals, as they rushed to take advantage of the opportunity before the crypto, legal, or antivirus ecosystems catch up and make it less rewarding. In 2009 around 1 in 13 stalkers used trackers of any kind; that number's surely gone up between 2009 and 2021 (AirTag release), but you really think that number won't go over the next few years, partly because of increased popular awareness of trackers?

> It is foolish to underestimate stalkers and stereotype it as just a crime of opportunity.

I said often a crime of opportunity, not always (or even mostly), and that those for whom it was a crime of opportunity, weren't sophisticated. The average bank robber might have done a good deal of research on bank security systems and circumvention. The average stalker might not think of using GPS tracking unless he's reminded of their existence, since there are so many other methods (likely, most stalking is online nowadays). Hence my "availability" argument.

You’re right.

It’s so frustrating to see this kind of thoughtless Apple criticism based on brand only when they so many things that are actually bad.

AirTags are better in nearly every way to the competition. They have considered design factors, like privacy, that no one else has. Yet, they are the bad guys that should never have released this product.

Apple should be releasing products like this. They offer significant improvements over their competitors because they consider more than pure profit seeking. AirTags without privacy protection is the same as everything else available, is cheaper to make and easier to design.

I like Apple pushing the bar here. Because their products are perfect, and balance different trade offs, they encourage other manufacturers to fill those gaps. This is a win that wasn’t happening when Tile was the dominant player.

I know it's unlikely to be you, but if you know anyone concerned about someone who had access to their phone tracking them (or other malfeasence), Apple published a "Personal Safety User Guide":

https://help.apple.com/pdf/personal-safety/en_US/personal-sa...

(also a web version: https://support.apple.com/guide/personal-safety/welcome/web )

(and yes, it covers AirTags).

It's all adding up to a pretty good guerilla marketing campaign. Get an iPhone, or else.

Every Android user needs Airguard, which will scan constantly for airtags. It's open source

I think it's a horrible world we now live in where we HAVE to install software to solve a problem other people have created for my safety in the real world.

I bet you Google has had conversations about integrating some kind of airtag tracking feature into their software.

The OP is right. Airtags are not the greatest idea and the abuse of them is disastrous for people who are not on the apple ecosystem.

The attitude of apple so far has been horrible... Their app sucks.. only works when you open it.... They can do better but refuse to, because they don't care for our safety unless we buy an Apple product.

Sorry but that's unacceptable

The barrier of entrance has not only been lowered on the cost side but also on the opportunity side. If people already own AirTags and know how to use them for legitimate purposes they just have to hide them somewhere to track somebody opposed to deciding to get a proper GPS tracker „just to find out where X is going to“.

The risk of getting caught has also been raised considerably, however. An anonymous GPS tracker won't easily lead back to you personally, but an AirTag used for stalking will lead police to your door.

>Has a tracker costing too much ever stopped a stalker?

Can you pay for that subscription of a tracker with an anonymous payment? If someone was to find a tracker, and even having to go through court orders of whatever type, the subscriber could be found out. I think that would be the bigger deterrent for a thinking stalker than the price as that's the cost of doing business. (shivers from making stalking out to be a sane thing) Lot's of plausible deniability, "oops, i lost that sometime ago, and totally forgot to play dark pattern UI games to end my auto-pay subscription. totally wasn't me, we swears it."

That Apple trackers work well makes them worse, so yes, the high profile is a real factor.

> Neither have anti-stalking features of any kind to this day.

Very true, the only real difference is that Airtags are simply a better product, but that means their use as stalking devices (along with their legitimate uses) is now much more practical and casual.

I think the real long-term solution is for Apple to open up the U1 chip/protocol so at the very least Google/Tile/Samsung are able to implement the same countermeasures Apple has, if not use it in their own tracker devices. It would probably cost them revenue, but I imagine it would be worth it compared to the negative press they're getting from this, particularly since they're also making huge strategic missteps wrt App Store 3rd party payments.

I think a major part of the announcement you're skipping over is the clear statement that individual AirTags are linked to specific AppleIDs and Apple will cooperate with law enforcement to help identify the owners of AirTags used for criminal activity. If you're a wannabe stalker, the fact that Apple has made it clear they're just itching to point the cops in your direction if you misuse their technology seems like a fairly big disincentive when there are other tracking capabilities available. Even if you think your target isn't too likely to find the AirTag, it means you're taking an obvious risk if they do happen to find it.

Do you have to reveal who you are to Apple to use an airtag though?

Or with decent operational security can you purchase and activate airtags in an untraceable way?

If you can that undermines your point, however if you can't then your making a very good point.

If a stalker is willing to buy a burner iOS device (since that's the means of viewing Airtag data), associate it with an untraceable email/iCloud, and only leave the device's location services on in locations that aren't tied to their identity (since Apple also knows where the tracking phone is), then 'having access to Airtags' probably isn't the 'make or break' factor in whether or not they will stalk someone.

If a user has that level of tech savvy, there are plenty of other cellular GPS devices they could use.

> If a user has that level of [spare cash],

I suspect they could get several cellular GPS devices for the cost of an iPhone + some AirTags - meaning they could easily offer up one or two sacrificial ones for easy finding in order to hide a smaller one "in plain sight" (as it were.)

Or they could just hire a private detective to do some stalking for them.

Or someone even less scrupulous for even less money, I'd assume?

> Do you have to reveal who you are to Apple to use an airtag though?

People are subjecting themselves to voluntary surveillance and it's amazing to watch, Apple's promise to cooperate with "Law Enforcement" in most of the world was chilling. J Edgar Hoover would have creamed his pants - "Did you say MLK Jr. has several airtags? I want daily updates on where he's going."

Most criminals are not clever. I had a girlfriend whose house was broken into; the thieves stole an xbox, an air conditioner, various electronics, etc. After she reported them stolen, sure enough, the serial numbers showed up at a pawn shop, the pawn shop had taken the ID of the sellers down, and warrants were issued. She got her stuff back and the thieves went to jail.

Most criminals wouldn't be doing what they're doing anyway if they were clever or did a modicum of research on what they can actually get away with.

>I continue to think Apple should have never released AirTags to the public

It is the usual Apple strategy for decades. AirTags product play was the technological groundwork for UWB and possibly AR/VR. They always need a product, hobby or something adjacent to iron out all the problems. Chip Packaging, Next Gen OLED, Low Power Profiling all landed on Apple Watch first before they moved to iPhone. The Sound work on AirPod before they moved to HomePod and later MacBook and iPad.

This way they could spread their R&D and gain synergy across product range.

On the subject of tracking, I am not entirely sure AirTag, or the idea of Tagging ( so to speak ) is as useless as you claim it to be, but I am also extremely uneasy with the concept of AirTag. Like many if not all things in life, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Oooh, I didn't think of that. The AirTag UWB finding is eerily accurate.

If you have an Apple AR/VR headset, you could just stick tiny AirTag-like trackers in your environment and the headset could use those for location.

Exactly... They created this public privacy problem for every human

Then offered a solution only to it's own customers.

That's some dystopian Apple shit right there.

Without that network it wouldn't work, you can't do this over the public internet without a swarm of physical devices you control on the other side. Companies like Apple remotely controlling devices used to mainly be a personal issue and thus a personal choice, you can just opt out of Apple to avoid it.

There is no opt out of Apple airtags.

Now every Apple user is an Apple snoop, your choice to use Apple affects _everyone_ around you... quite literally.

> I remember seeing a chills-down-your-spine Apple Watch Series 7 TV ad, that featured beautiful remote nature landscapes, with the audio of 911 calls made from people's Apple Watches whose lives were saved by their Watch. Probably one of Apple's best and most impactful ad in the past decade.

One could argue it's pretty distasteful to try to cash in on people's fears.

Well, that is one of the pillars of advertising these days.

Survival food? Fear.

Antivirus software? Fear.

Expensive Organic Cat Food? Fear (of the inorganic cheap food).

LifeLock? Fear.

Insurance of any kind? Fear.

Solar panels for off-grid? Fear (of the grid going down).

Your cousin's extensive gun collection? Fear (if things get bad).

And so on...

Some of those might be a stretch to go with fear.

Solar panels is pretty much targeted as a way to avoid high utility bills, trying to go green, etc. If you're in a circle of consipiracy types, then maybe the off-grid aspect is preached more. Mainly though, it's just about avoiding the bills, and maybe avoiding power interruptions. That requires batteries though. That might qualify as fear advertising.

Insurance is mere pragmatism. Knowing that bad things happen that require large amounts of money to fix doesn't constitute fear.

And that was the almost-universal response on reddit and YouTube comments, but are those people more, or less likely to buy an Apple Watch? Maybe not for themselves, maybe for their grandparents? Besides, it's the absolute bedrock of modern marketing, from weight loss pills to perfumes to clothing: when ads depict supposed customers smiling with their families, or going on a date, or being the center of attention at a party, it's the exact same psychological trick, twisting the knife of your insecurities, fears and FOMO, just done more subtly.

One could indeed argue!

I was personally eager to pay for the cellular-equipped Watch as long as I was getting one, because even without an explicit data plan, if you fall off a bike, it will call 911 for you automatically unless you tell it not to.

That's insurance of a kind I couldn't purchase prior to that, in a form I would actually use and have on me if this actually happened. Fine by me.

The older you get, the more ways to fall down and need 911 start to exist. I'm okay with Apple "cashing in" on that.

It's a fine line, but I feel Apple avoided being exploitative here. The vibe wasn't "you deserve to have this terrible thing happen if you don't buy our product." The watch clearly provided real utility to real customers and it's worth highlighting.

Apple's "Tracker Detect" Android app wants full network access and precise foreground location permissions.

They expect me to consent to having my physical location tracked by Apple in order to avoid having my physical location tracked by someone other than Apple. Unbelievable.

Obviously, the app will need that access privilege to perform its task. Now, you’re in the bind: Do you trust apple to use these privileges on the device only - and not track you - or do you care about being tracked by others. Depends on your risk profile, I’d say.

I'm more concerned about Apple at the moment, I guess we'll see how common AirTag stalking becomes.

Android requires Location permissions to scan for Bluetooth devices because if you can scan for Bluetooth you can sometimes get the user's location from various online databases, so the permissions would be functionally identical if they were sperate anyway.

As an adult with ADHD AirTags have been an absolute godsend. I have them on my keys, wallet and backpack and I’ve pinged them all separately just this week.

I have pinged my keys within the last three hours!

If I were a guessing person: because future products will be the same size and price as AirTags … what would it look like if an Apple Watch cost $50? It could be used like an AirTag for stalking.

So: sort out the privacy implications with a low-priority product like AirTag first.

But I am not a guessing person. ;)

For me, 95% of the functionality of Airtags would still be there if it only worked with your own apple devices. I have found airtags for finding things when I lose my keys/wallet around the house. I do leave them at a restaurant tying it to my iPhone would still show the last place I had it.

I felt the same way about Tile back in the day when I used it.

I didn’t want my tile part of their “network”, I didn’t want other tile users to relay the location, I didn’t want my phone relaying other tile users’ locations. I didn’t want my tiles location going to any server at any point. I just wanted a to be able to make my wallet beep if I’m near enough to it for it to be in range of my phone. But the rest of the “features” couldn’t be disabled, so I threw my tiles out.

Years ago, I had a tile on my keys. I left them on top of my car in a parking garage. When I went back, they were gone. Someone took them, probably meaning well but didn’t leave a note saying where they took them to. So that sucked. To this day, despite the tile being in “lost mode”, I’ve never gotten a ping. There’s real value in these trackers, because people pick up things that aren’t theirs.

I have around 10 airtags installed in various places. The amount of peace and anxiety relief it brings me is priceless.

And none of these problems are airtag specific. You can buy fairly accurate GPS trackers for about $30 that don't even have the android scan feature.

They are far more noticeable and less suited for covert tracking than AirTags: they need far more power, reducing the time of autonomous work, they are significantly bigger, they need to be in the coverage area of mobile network.

Also, AirTags look far more innocent, giving a plausible deniability excuse to a potential stalker. Oh, that's where I lost that key, it's on the floor of your car! With specialised tracker that excuse won't work.

>>and significantly increases the average person's risk of stalking.

I mean, increase from 0.00001% to 0.0001% is still significant and yet I still wouldn't worry about it in the slightest.

You personally may not have to worry about it, but a handful of well publicized cases of misuse (say someone getting stalked/murdered) will probably be a bigger monetary hit to Apple than their profit from this entire line.

Then that is Apple's concern, in the meantime I'll enjoy using their product for legitimate purposes.

Reminder that the OP of this chain is explicitly coming at this question from Apple's POV.

>I continue to think Apple should have never released AirTags to the public, and should discontinue it

This discussion is specifically about what Apple should do, so I don't see how this is relevant.

With the same analogy, we should stop producing kitchen knifes because someone may stab someone.

We should also stop producing cars because someone may crash someone.

Almost every technological device (or even a simple device) can be abused in wrong hands, nothing to do with Apple or AirTags.

but that's precisely the wider point: new technology enables new behaviors, but in some cases, benefits are much smaller than downsides.

i don't think the jury is out on airtags just yet. it's clearly revolutionary technology in terms of reach, for better or worse.

> I mean, increase from 0.00001% to 0.0001% is still significant and yet I still wouldn't worry about it in the slightest.

I think there's probably a little gender bias at play in your risk estimation. I too am not particularly worried about someone stalking my 6ft ass - but I'd say a majority of my female friends have experiences with stalking at some point in their life.

Yes, you are right of course. But I suspect even when taking gender into account, the risk of being stalked AND tracked by an AirTag is absolutely miniscule and not worth worrying about. But I'm talking completely out of my ass, would love to see some data behind it.

The people getting stalked have a 100% risk. You don't care because for you it's all just statistics.

With statistical arguments, why do we spend so many resources on prevention of anything, e.g. cancer, when it only impacts a small number of people?

This kind of argument always comes down to choice. You care or you don't. Hard to argue. If you don't care about the fate of those "few", mostly women, well... there is no law of physics that I could throw at you, my negative judgement of your argument is not based on anything hard. Which is the case for a huge amount of such choices. You can have a society based on and steered by pure statistics and benefits, but what you will miss is that the very nature of such a society changes because you cannot put that into numbers.

The core of the argument is qualitative, which does not lend itself well to number-based reasoning.

>>The people getting stalked have a 100% risk. You don't care because for you it's all just statistics.

I don't know why would you say such a thing.

Let me give you another example - the chance of getting stabbed on the streets of London is probably comparably miniscule to being stalked.

And now if we extend that argument - almost 100% of people getting stabbed are men.

Does that mean that as a man I should start wearing a knife-proof vest? Is me refusing to do so "not caring" or that "it's only statistics for me"?

After all, people getting stabbed have a 100% risk of getting stabbed - that's a pointless statement if I have ever seen one.

I just don't understand the aggression of that statement - just because my gender is statistically unlikely to be stalked doesn't mean that somehow I suddenly don't care, or that women shouldn't care - just that in your daily life you should really consider how big of a risk something really is.

>>With statistical arguments, why do we spend so many resources on prevention of anything, e.g. cancer, when it only impacts a small number of people?

That isn't the argument though. We aren't arguing spending or not spending money to prevent a small number of cases(in which case I'd say absolutely this money should be spent). I replied to someone who said AirTags should be completely and entirely banned over a very small number of cases where they were used maliciously.

To use the cancer comparison - it's like someone saying that we should ban bacon worldwide because it's a known factor in certain cancers. I'd also argue against it, because the risk to any one individual from eating bacon is absolutely miniscule.

You don't recognize the huge value of AirTags for Apple - the AirTags give Apple a valid excuse to create an ad-hoc network (Find My Network) of Apple devices that can better spy on each user, thus giving them better access to the users personal data regardless of their privacy settings. For example, if you haven't opted out of the Find My Network (turned it off), but turned locations off due to privacy concern, Apple can now get that data from others iDevice users near you. They can use it to upgrade your social graphs (who you hang out with), where you shop and eat outside. With Find My Network enabled, Apple devices are no longer fully powered off but go into a low power mode so that they can still talk to another iDevice through Bluetooth.

> I continue to think Apple should have never released AirTags to the public, and should discontinue it. It's a very limited income stream, with limited use cases, and significantly increases the average person's risk of stalking.

You sure have a lot of strong opinions on what apple "should" do.

Don't like it? It's a free market. Don't buy it and if you're afraid of being stalked, check out the app they released.

I wonder how come all you people come out of the woodwork now that Apple released this thing, yet when Tile did there was no such forced concerned anywhere.

That leaves "finding your keys within your home" as the only truly "officially supported" use case.

People lose stuff all the time. That's why most public places have Lost And Founds.

For Android there is also the free alternative to Apples Android AirTag called "AirGuard"[0]. It was out way sooner than Apples application and seems to be far more advanced than it (i.e. has the features you claimed the apple android air tag application was lacking).

[0]: https://f-droid.org/packages/de.seemoo.at_tracking_detection

My cat gets out often, and an AirTag allowed us to find her several times over the past year; sometimes notifying us before we even realized it.

Planning the same for my cat who goes out a lot: is there a special collar that has a place for AirTag or what is your setup?

I bought a silicone collar thing from Etsy. It works okay but it’s large.

People are actually selling AirTags with the speakers already disabled, this is a massive hole they're consistently overlooking.

Addressed head-on in the press release:

> Display alert with sound: When AirTag automatically emits a sound to alert anyone nearby of its presence and is detected moving with your iPhone, iPad, or iPod touch, we will also display an alert on your device that you can then take action on, like playing a sound or using Precision Finding, if available. This will help in cases where the AirTag may be in a location where it is hard to hear, or if the AirTag speaker has been tampered with.

Did you miss the part where the parent was referring to people who don't have iOS devices?

yes indeed — I missed it

So alarm shouldn't be considered to anti tracking feature.

>All a stalker needs to do, is remove the speaker

What am I missing here-- it seems like it would have been trivial for Apple to add a microphone and have the AirTag stop sending location if the speaker isn't working. And have the firmware check the speaker is actually emitting sound, so no amount of physical rewiring can defeat it.

Anyone know why they didn't do this?

Another fringe use case no one has mentioned:

Finding a detached ski in titty-deep backcountry powder. AirTags can be literally life saving.

Curious if you have tried this. I was under the impression the snow/water content would block the signal

Android users can use AirGuard, an open source app to detect AirTags following you: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.seemoo.at_t...

Technology can be used for good and bad. If Apple AirTags disappeared tomorrow Tile and GPS trackers would still exist, but Apple have highlighted legitimate use cases to hundreds of thousands of people like me for theses devices (I use mine for my luggage and my dog).

I agree completely. I love the idea of Air Tags, but we all saw this coming a mile away and Apple should never have been allowed to release these.

The fact that this post from Apple even EXISTS is direct acknowledgement of this being a horrible, dangerous mistake.

I know what they were trying to achieve, but it isn't worth the misuse by a long shot.

People will think it's not a problem until someone is tracked with one and killed.

The only thing I can think of (besides not selling them) is to open them up so they can be used with Android, and work with Google to add support for them to Android's OS.

Police in the UK does not follow up on requests to retrieve iPhones from FindMyPhone because the GPS tracking isn't exact enough to find the correct appartment.

So for stolen items, it is also useless.

> So for stolen items, it is also useless.

It's not. I've recovered my phone after it was stolen by simply showing up to the house it wandered off to the next morning.

I've done this a number of times for friends (perhaps not really the brightest idea in retrospect) and you'd be surprised at how many folks simply apologize and hand it over when confronted. If they refuse, at least you tried.

Plenty of folks will take matters into their own hands for a $1,000 device that may be a source of their livelihood. Not everyone can simply walk away from that and absorb the loss.

I wonder what the %s are of people that lose a device and do not immediately lock it? Is there a large enough market for buying stolen phones that are locked to make them useable again?

Do these people expect to extort a finder's fee? I just don't think "criminal" enough to understand the value of a stolen phone.

> Plenty of folks will take matters into their own hands for a $1,000 device

I was once mugged at gun point and the 2 guys took my wallet/cash/phone. For some stupid reason, I thought it a good idea to kindly ask for my wallet and phone back by convincing them the phone was several generations older, it would be locked as soon as I returned home, as well as any cards in my wallet being canceled. Also, just to avoid the pain in the ass of dealing with the banks and not going to the DMV for a new ID. The 2 guys laughed, and gave me everything back except the cash. To this day, I don't know what made me think that was going to happen. However, as soon as I turned the corner, I was on the phone with 911.

> I thought it a good idea to kindly ask for my wallet and phone back by convincing them the phone was several generations older, it would be locked as soon as I returned home.

About a decade ago when El Salvador was more dangerous, cell phone theft at gun point or knife point was more common. And well SIM cards used to be easier to remove from phones.

So the "good thieves" would allow you to remove the sim card from the phone before stealing it from you.

There were also times where the thief would be "pickier" than you, so if you had a very old or a damaged phone they would just give you your phone back after mugging you.

Two tricks were faking an ugly phone while carrying without a battery cover and cover it with duct tape. Or carrying a hidden good phone and a visible old phone.

Yes.

I work on a busy robbery squad in London and iPhones are absolutely the target, whether they're locked or unlocked.

Where do you live? Seems crazy to me to know that many people with stolen phones- and I’m in London!

I would guess that since it's getting pinged by any/every iPhone that gets within ~10 meters, the AirTags are often more accurate, since "more samples". That probably doesn't help in all situations, but helps in a lot of them.

Possibly even by the criminals own devices. It's kind of genius

This is partially correct but depends on presentation - I tracked a phone to a house, they said they couldn't help because it wasn't accurate enough, I said I was going to knock on the door and demand it back, they turned up in ~3 minutes and recovered it for me, arresting the person who had it at the same time. Because I presented it as "I am going to put myself in danger to recover this item" they were duty bound to act. Still didn't help much as it was held as evidence for literally months.

> And since most lost items turn into stolen items after a few hours

Is that a feeling or something you can source?

You can post anonymously on a forum against them. I sent them an email thanking them for making them. In the end, I buy their stuff and you guys don’t. They know that.

AirTags are pretty incredible for finding lost pets.

> And since most lost items turn into stolen items after a few hours

Source?

> Android users are still vulnerable

This isn't really under Apples control though. But I guess they could go out of their way to provide an AOSP pull request, that would be big of them.

does 2) really mean that, or does it mean that many people have downloaded it.

does 2) get updated if someone deletes the app?

Android users don't exist in the Apple mindset.

>Android users are still vulnerable

You misunderstand how airtags work. Airtags can't track an android user. It can only track people with iPhones (and possibly other apple devices).

Airtags leverage the popularity of iPhone devices and use that, not a single phone. Given there's a high probability of someone in the surrounding with an iPhone, you don't have to have an iPhone so that an Airtag will track your movements accurately enough.

That's not how Airtags work. From Apple's website:

> Your AirTag sends out a secure Bluetooth signal that can be detected by nearby devices in the Find My network. These devices send the location of your AirTag to iCloud — then you can go to the Find My app and see it on a map.

Airtags broadcast their ID via bluetooth and then any nearby iPhone with "Find My" enabled will be looking for these signals. If something is found, it sends the information to Apple and Apple then makes it available to the Airtag user.

The person or object doesn't need a phone (be it Android or iPhone) to be tracked. All Airtag needs is to be detected by someone else's iPhone.

Why are Android users vulnerable? Because iPhones will automatically warn you if a tag that isn't yours stays near you for a long time while Android users have no idea. Apple released an app for Android, but it requires users to perform manual scans...

So just to clarify. The attack is:

You as Android user live in a an apartment block. Your neighbor below has iPhone. Your neighbor keep getting warnings on his phone that unrecognized AirTag is nearby. He can’t find any and doesn’t speak with you about it.

When moving across the city it would be even worse as there is no neighbor that would get the tracking warnings.

Most people with Android phones participate in society with everyone else, and don't segregate themselves away from anyone who might have an iPhone.

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