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Comment by ReactiveJelly | Hacker News Reader

And pointing to the decline of religion isn't very helpful for us atheists.

I can't really buy into a religion I don't believe in for the sake of making society better. I'd rather try to make society better directly, I don't want to do a "noble lie".

I'll gesture vaguely at "the suburbs". Low trust and alienation describes my childhood in a place where you needed a car to do anything and even when my parents let me wander, there was almost nowhere fun to wander _to_.

I don't have data to back this up, though. Maybe it's just resentment at how my childhood turned out.

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> I'll gesture vaguely at "the suburbs". Low trust and alienation describes

I agree with this for sure, and such zoning issues have been pointed to as the root cause of other societal ills dating back to (at least) Jane Jacobs' 1961 book The Death and Life of Great American Cities.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_Am...

"And pointing to the decline of religion isn't very helpful for us atheists"

Pointing to something that is true doesn't need to be helpful. Making the statement it's not helpful to you, is helpful to noone.

Surely, there are more atheists than ReactiveJelly. No need to be so restrictively negative.

I'm 100% with you on being athiest and not wanting to support religion in my life

but, one thing many religions provide is a social club. Every Sunday and for some religion even more days, you meet up with people socially. Churches have festivals, dances, classes, even singles events that you're encouraged to attend regularly and at which you'll likely make friends and possible more

Vs outside where sure I can join a club or go to a Meetup but some part of that just doesn't seem to hit the same levels as church type stuff. Maybe it's a stronger feeling of obligation to participate. Maybe it's shared beliefs ...

Let pitch a non-religious social club to YC :p

like the Masonic lodges?

Or how about any of the various modern fitness fads. Crossfit, for example.

“ Let pitch a non-religious social club to YC :p”

That’s actually a very interesting idea!

But it's not a the social aspect that does the work. While important, we have social clubs already. NFL on Sundays, adult sports leagues, workplace. We do yoga, pilates, CrossFit, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. It's not the social aspect that will save society. It is the moral order pointing a group towards a common source that doesn't just give meaning to one's own personal journey, but that gives a lifelong context and meaning to one's life in relationship with humanity and the cosmos. Otherwise a group is just something members enter and exit at will. This is similarly why family is so powerful. It is governed by an intrinsic relationship that can't be altered. When we call someone "family," regardless of biological status, we are inviting them into a permanent place in our lives unlike more recreational social groups.

The bad suburbs theory sounds plausible, but it has a big problem: it predicts that cities will be less dysfunctional than suburbs, but in reality they are anything but — things are way worse in the cities.

reduced social interaction in a suburban setting could simultaneously explain both the psychological harm to young men and the elevated 'way worse' things in cities.

Aren’t there secular clubs that can have a large social element like rotary clubs or book clubs or even some sports like golf for example?

I guess you could also try joining a church where it’s basically acceptable to be an atheist like the Unitarian Universalist church although that would maybe be too spiritual.

Bowling Alone is a great book about the complete collapse of these sort of groups in America.

UU, mainline Protestantism, Reform Judaism. Religions that ask for nothing but attendance one day a week and don’t believe in anything uncomfortable for nice university educated people have been collapsing since the 60s.

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