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Comment by TIPSIO | Hacker News Reader

I would really like to see it become normal for tipping people this way (that isn't at a cash register / tap) but with AirDrop.

For example, I recently had movers. I went out of my way to get a cash tip for them earlier. It would have been nice to skip that and just ping it at them somehow without awkwardly saying "Hey friend do you have Venmo? Apple Pay? CashApp? I'd like to tip you. What's your phone number?! Let me get that, thanks, bye, delete.".

This is NFC and a bit different but just my thoughts.

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Eh, I hope it doesn't. Tipping needs to die out. I'd prefer to have the moving company pay the movers a living wage such that a tip would be unnecessary and politely refused.

I'd rather an industry standard payout, but the workers getting pay proportional to revenue is actually not a bad model. I just hate the analysis paralysis

This is obviously a bit flame-y / unrelated / political.

Regardless of how you personally feel about US wages and the 20% I already prepaid for tip through the company to them, to be able to send money to others would be useful.

There could be other cases besides tipping.

I'd be really interested to know what to properly call it, but IMHO this is the kind of thing that the market will never solve top-down because the structure of the relationship would never support it.

I think an on-the-ground solution that caters to the long tail would be the only thing that would basically survive. Everything else would succumb to social forces and basically just fizzle out.

AirDropping Apple credit could be an interesting pilot study, but I doubt Apple would do something like that sadly :/

Please don't confuse the restaurant industry where tips subsidize wages with the original idea of tipping as a sign of gratitude an thanks. A tip can be a meaningful and impactful way to say "You went beyond expectation, did an awesome job and I really appreciate it". Why would you not want that option?

Because it doesn’t actually work that way and it’s in no way an “option”. In reality tipping becomes expected and people withhold it when the service does /not/ meet expectation. That’s awkward and too confrontational for a lot of people so they’ll just tip anyways.

Personally I also find it exhausting to have to judge every single service I get. So I just tip a standard amount, there’s absolutely no feedback involved. So there is no point.

There are lots of downsides with very few upsides.

For situations where laws allow for sub-standard wages, such as restaurant wait staff, I agree with you. It's not really an option, it's exhausting, there's no point.

For situations that aren't codified into law like that, it can more legitimately be modulated according to how the service made you feel, from zero to "keep the change" to a couple bucks to sky's the limit.

The former should be solved by abolishing tipping. The latter should be solved by technology that's somehow as frictionless as cash.

> laws allow for sub-standard wages, such as restaurant wait staff

The law does not allow for sub-standard wages, however. If everyone stopped tipping today, wait staff would get the same minimum wage as any other job.

No, actually the law allows for below-minimum hourly wages for tipped jobs. That's the whole issue...

Employers are obliged to ensure that employees they are paying below minimum wage because the employee gets tips get paid at least minimum wage including tips.

If an employee lets their employer know they did not earn enough tips to meet minimum wage, then the employer must pay them more to ensure they get minimum wage.

Also, in many jurisdictions of the US where the same minimum wage applies to traditionally tipped employees, the tipping dynamic has remained. For example in California, Oregon, and Washington, the cultural expectation is that customers will still tip waiters, even though the waiters are earning the same minimum wage as everyone else.

For those curious, this is accurate according to Department of Labor: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped

However, I think the point being advocated in this thread is that businesses should have to pay minimum wage (before tips). That said, it would be interesting how employers would respond if that was required by law - since removing tips would not save the employer any money, I wonder if that would result in less hiring.

You can see the results in states that have no tipped minimum wage, such as WA/CA/OR.

Generally, restaurant prices are higher (minimum $25 per meal per person without alcoholic drinks), but tipping is still expected by the waiters for waited service. Bottom line is waiters earn more money, but possibly fewer people can afford to eat out and maybe there are fewer waiters overall.

I dislike waited food service anyway, I much prefer to just buy at the counter and bus my own table, and it might result in more restaurants like that.

What are your thoughts about using a counter and self-bussing but the clerk faces a tablet at you with 3 large buttons: 18%, 20%, 25% ?

Not only will the personal service be minimal, but the only part you can even judge at that point is how well they took your order... who knows if something will go south! So it's clearly just about keeping menu prices artificially low.

I have always been able to choose “no tip”, along with those other options.

If it was not there, then depending on who I was with, I would either walk out or eat the cost and then never go back and leave a review that says they bait and switch pricing.

Tipping is about price segmentation / discrimination. Good for the seller, bad for the buyer.

In Massachusetts, the minimum wage for tipped service staff is $6.15--appalling for 2022 with inflation hitting 30-year highs.

In reality in most of the world, that's simply untrue. To most people, the concept of "standard tipping" is absurd.

Mainly because it gives perverse initiatives to pay employees less and tipping to be standard not unusual gratitude. Sometimes you can't have nice things because the way society collectively behaves.

Tipping at a restaurant is the only place where I would tip face to face. Maybe a valet but I avoid that like the plague too since you're giving your car to someone and no accountability. Name a few face to face tipping scenarios besides food and valet that is common? I'm seriously blanking on anything.

Barber shop, movers, cab driver, bellhop, coat check person, doormen/building staff around the holidays

Maybe I'm a prude but I wouldn't tip for any of those services besides getting a hair cut. Need to add elevator driver and that guy in the bathroom who stands around and makes everyone uncomfortable.

If businesses see their employees making more, you can guarantee that they will reduce wages. Because total compensation is the bargaining chip in this contract between employer and employee, and what determines demand for that job. When this happens, it hurts the people who are less advantaged in making tips. You can find plenty informartion on how gender, race, age and appearance play a huge factor in making tips.

I'd prefer to have the moving company pay the movers a living wage such that a tip would be unnecessary and politely refused.

Clearly, you have no idea of how the moving industry works. Everybody's a contractor of a contractor of a franchisee. The person who picks up your stuff is not always the person who delivers it.

When I move (frequently), I make sure to tip each person packing my stuff $50, each person loading my stuff $50, and the driver $100 for < 1,000 miles, or $200 > 2,000 miles.

Lifting and carrying and handling other people's prized possessions isn't an easy job. This is how I show appreciation when the job is done well.

>Clearly, you have no idea of how the moving industry works.

It's really no answer to say I need to understand how each industry works.

Why would I? And why should I? It's the government's responsibility to understand the nuances of, and regulate, each industry.

Do we really want to live in a world where consumers need to understand the detail of how each industry operates so they can ensure sub-sub contractors can be remunerated appropriately?

Here in London tons of people and places have pay touch readers like this:

https://imgur.com/nNaDddR

I'm talking museums asking for donations. To street performers in the tube. They're everywhere.

The lollipop and aftershave man in my local nightclub's toilet has one. I'm tempted to give him a pound next time to see what pops up on my bank statement (and for some probably counterfeit cologne).

For context: I don't know if they're a thing in the States but in most male toilets in nightclubs (and more 'clubby' bars) in the UK there's usually an annoying guy in the toilet who turns off the hand driers and gives you paper to dry your hands whilst passively aggresively demanding a tip in return for a lollipop or a spray of various aftershaves/deoderants.

Yeah “restroom attendants” are definitely a thing in the US as well. I used to think it was stupid but from the club owner’s point of view it probably helps a lot to avoid vandalism, drug use, etc. that might otherwise occur in the bathrooms. I do end up seeing a lot of people just not wash their hands because they don’t like feeling obligated to tip the guy for handing them a paper towel.

I just take a paper towel myself. If there is a guy standing there holding the only paper towels in the bathroom, I'll just ask him why he's holding them. I wouldn't use one from him either, that just seems gross. I wouldn't tip for it in any case. It's just slightly glorified panhandling, I assume it isn't at all condoned by the club owner and they'd probably throw the guy out if they were aware. I haven't actually seen it in the US, though, just at international airports outside the country, so maybe the dynamic is different here.

Most people prefer to play along and have a good time and not think much about it and focus on the night itself. Less about making a point and more about having fun at the place you'll walk back into once you exit the toilet.

I would really like to see it become normal for tipping people this way (that isn't at a cash register / tap) but with AirDrop.

I totally agree.

At a parking garage the other day, there was a long line of people trying to get their cars back from the valets because one person was trying to tip with some random app.

"Oh, you need to download this. Yeah, open the App Store. Then download it. Yeah, it take a while. OK, now sign up. --five minutes elapse-- OK, now what's your username so I can send you the money? Did you say 'e' or 'v?' Was that '4114' or '1144?' OK. Sending now..."

It took like ten minutes.

Indeed - I'm really surprised that Apple doesn't have some kind of "just pay another apple user" feature.

I know that would open them up to lots of KYC requirements, as well as require them to do some of the evil things that financial laws require (eg. tracking all payments, closing accounts and banning users for certain things while not being able to tell the users why, freezing users money till they can present documents they don't have, etc.)

But it still seems worth it to take over the payments space from venmo, cashapp and paypal, make the wall to switching to android a little taller, etc.

They do support this in iMessage, it's called Apple Cash. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207875

While true that that could be nice, I don't think the burden of asking for an alternative like Venmo or CashApp like you listed is that high, and this case requires that the movers would also have an iPhone.

I have seen this solved at a bar with a QR code linked to venmo.

iPhone needs a little printer that prints a QR code that represents an NFT that was just minted in blockchain

I had movers a couple months ago and tried to tip them. Note that I don't ever carry cash and am a proponent of abolishing the Federal Reserve. I asked them for their Ethereum or Bitcoin address, and they said, "neither of us don't have that, but we take cash." I calmly tried to explain to them the evils of the Federal Reserve for around five minutes, then began to set them up with their own cryptocurrency wallets on their phones. I then plugged in my Ledger Nano S and had them each read me their public keys, which I entered into Ledger Live and sent them each their five dollar tip. It was a simple process and did not take longer than thirty minutes. By the end of the exchange, they were both very happy with the arrangement and thanked me profusely for setting them up to use the future of currency, although I was still in the process of explaining its importance.

"Teach a man to fish," they say, and I believe I did it on that day. I encourage everyone else to do the same.

set them up with their own cryptocurrency wallets on their phones

What specifically did you have them set up?

Woosh

I can't tell if this is satire or not.

Looking at their comment history, I think they're actually serious.

it's clearly satire, just because he's into crypto doesn't mean he can't be cheeky about it

I was sure it was satire until I started reading GP's past comments. Definitely a very post-ironic moment.

I thought it clearly was sarcasm/satire, but now you've made me doubt.

I feel it has to be. Who is tipping their movers only $5?

Transfer fees on Ethereum are currently $2.75, so either the movers got $2.25 or the dude paid an extra 55% just to pay them in something that's less useful for them.

This line really should answer that question:

> By the end of the exchange, they were both very happy with the arrangement and thanked me profusely for setting them up to use the future of currency, although I was still in the process of explaining its importance.

Print and frame this content chain as a fine example of Poe's law.

Has to be a Reddit-style pasta, though I can't find it anywhere else...

Feels like Tom O'Donnell, who has written satire like that a long time ago

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertari...

Given the 'about' section of their user says "you're all idiots" it seems reasonable to assume everything they say is either satire or an attempt at it.

Anon needs to move to El Salvador

>> I calmly tried to explain to them the evils of the Federal Reserve for around five minutes ... >> sent them each their five dollar tip ... >> It was a simple process and did not take longer than thirty minutes.

This is satire, right?

Reads like a real reddit post from 2009

Great copypasta material.

Bravo

This is art

I love this analogy[0], but to play devil's advocate I do a lot of tipping in cash and it's kind of a pain to break down big bills, so I can see some benefits to normalizing more digital options that actually work.

My bank is digital, it doesn't have a local branch, and most ATMs around me dispense cash in $20 bills. So I can make a small purchase near the ATM if it's in a shop and then ask them to give me change in smaller bills, but usually there's nothing I want. I don't have a local branch to drive to, but maybe other banks would help split bills? It's not awful, but it is pretty inconvenient.

Of course, the way to fix that might not be for everyone to standardize on iPhones, it might be to just have more ATMs that dispense smaller bills. But I do see why someone would find tipping primarily over, say, Venmo preferable, even though I don't think that appeal is enough to outweigh the benefits of cash tips (privacy, universal compatibility, simplicity, etc) in many situations.

Or I could just start tipping everyone everywhere in increments of $20 bills I guess, but I'm not that generous.

----

[0]: assuming you did actually mean it as an analogy for dropping cash for digital payments

I solve for this by stockpiling small bills in a drawer from which to replenish my wallet. I add to the pile by specifically paying with a large bill whenever the pile starts to dwindle, and I use a card whenever possible otherwise. The trick is to not habitually spend them except in situations (like tipping) where there's no reasonable alternative.

That makes sense. I think part of the problem is I'm trying to play both sides and mostly use a card for normal purchases, and mostly use cash for smaller purchases/tips. So you're right, I'm almost never using cash in situations that net me more small bills than I started with.

If I was a bit more consistent about occasionally just paying for something normal with cash it would possibly be more sustainable, right now I usually try to break apart small bills specifically when I'm completely out of them or when I know I'm going to need to tip someone in like an hour.

Also yeah, having a stockpile would probably be a good idea, since right now I typically only keep enough small bills to get me though my immediate tipping needs and no further, so any surprise situations mean I'm immediately out of small bills and can only pay for things by card.

Regardless, definitely more management than I would like to do, so I get why people might want a system that doesn't force them to think about that stuff at all. It's just that the alternative digital systems come with other downsides.

I can vouch for that story.

I also had movers, and wanted to tip them. When I asked what they took. I was shocked when they said Bitcoin!

They said some person that they had helped move before had helped them set up bitcoin addresses.

They were so excited by this. It was also pretty easy to convince them to read me both their public and private keys for those addresses (I told them that if I sent it to their public key, it would be public so their boss and the IRS would find out, however, if they gave me the private key, it would be completely private).

I then tipped both of them $50. They were so overjoyed.

Then later that night, I emptied both of their wallets.

(By the way, to the OP, thanks for teaching them about cryptocurrency, and for the $10).

/s just in case anybody is confused

This would’ve been a lot more convincing if you’d stated the transaction fees for the $5 tips. :)

So how does not carrying cash equate to getting rid of the Fed? You know it's not the money printed on paper that matters, but the actual number in a database?

Let's not turn hn into a discord channel about how crypto is going to disrupt all the things and make them more "decentralized" by having "federated exchanges" that allow you to "stake" your assets where, otherwise, it would be impossible to form a "liquidity provider" since, of course, without it why would you even want to live.

This is offensive. They would have to wait at least a day for their transaction to be settled on the chain.

You tipped movers $5 and stole their time from them so you could play with your toys.

I'm surprised all you got was a "Bless you, bless you" response and not a shiv or a fist sandwich.

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