Removing trucks could be almost 'impossible,' say heavy towing experts
cbc.ca
cbc.ca
The backlash against environmentalist protestors in the UK has resulted in jail time: https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/court-jails-star-paralympian-for-...
Also, you’re Canada, not China, so you’re hamstrung by those pesky human rights. Jail and fines is all you can do; you can’t just shoot ‘em all
Many of the war veterans had been out of work since the beginning of the Great Depression. The World War Adjusted Compensation Act of 1924 had awarded them bonuses in the form of certificates they could not redeem until 1945. Each certificate, issued to a qualified veteran soldier, bore a face value equal to the soldier's promised payment with compound interest. The principal demand of the Bonus Army was the immediate cash payment of their certificates.
On July 28, 1932, U.S. Attorney General William D. Mitchell ordered the veterans removed from all government property. Washington police met with resistance, shot at the protestors, and two veterans were wounded and later died. President Herbert Hoover then ordered the U.S. Army to clear the marchers' campsite. Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur commanded a contingent of infantry and cavalry, supported by six tanks. The Bonus Army marchers with their wives and children were driven out, and their shelters and belongings burned.
...
Though the Bonus Army incident did not derail the careers of the military officers involved, it proved politically disastrous for Hoover, and it is considered a contributing factor to his losing the 1932 election in a landslide to Franklin D. Roosevelt. """
If you disagree, I only request that you ask yourself: If you were suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, would you recognise it?
If you were suffering from Oppositional Defiant Disorder, would you recognize it? Gaslighting is not a very convincing argument, and that's exactly what it is when you implicitly accuse anyone who disagrees with you of having an invisible psychological problem. It's really is still possible for people to disagree on vaccine and mask mandates, both expressing legitimate reasons and concerns, without resort to such cheap tactics.
FWIW, "The State" has long labeled anti-tyranny dissenters with labels like that. That's why things like ODD are based around _behaviors and actions which are problematic_ vs the dissenting opinion per se.
Freedom of conscious is vital. Without it, we are simply automatons programmed by technocrats.
...and for just as long, plutocracy's "laissez faire" foot soldiers have been accusing everyone else of Stockholm Syndrome. That's kind of my point. We should be able to have a debate without the name calling, whether it's done blatantly enough for the moderators to act or not-so-subtly disguised with the "anyone who..." ruse.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-waterloo/waterloo-r...
Ontario hospitalization of people with COVID-19 peaked on January 18th, less than one month ago, at the highest level ever recorded during this pandemic. While perhaps less than half of those hospitalized are there for COVID, nevertheless, those people need to be put in isolation wards. That is, unless you believe that the second-most contagious virus known should be just allowed to course through hospital wards.
Ontario COVID ICU usage peaked on January 24th at the second highest level ever seen during this pandemic. That was only two weeks ago. On Jan 31st Ontario eased their lockdown and there is great uncertainty about whether hospital and ICU admissions are going to start increasing again in the subsequent weeks because we have only a limited understanding of how many people were infected during the Omicron wave.
Baring another mutation that would thrust COVID into the position of the most contagious known virus, or otherwise evade immunity, we are nearing the end of the pandemic phase, where the virus is novel to the general population, and entering an endemic phase. Hospital beds will clear, surgeries will resume and then we can resume a more normal lifestyle. However, if you are a fan of medical services, like I am, we probably need a little bit more time.
https://www.trucknews.com/blogs/the-so-called-freedom-convoy...
The protests are disavowed by the Canadian Trucking Alliance and 90% of truckers are vaccinated and are exempt from the quarantine rules. Instead, the protest organizers are western separatists with their own agendas. This is their protest and the are using the Trucking industry as a tool in their PR. The very fact that we are discussing truckers now here on HN has more to do with their PR campaign than trucker well-being.
https://cantruck.ca/statement-by-canadian-trucking-alliance-...
Secondly, Canada's ending of the exemption for truckers from quarantine rules is reciprocal with the US rules. Canada unilaterally reinstating the quarantine exemption for cross-border truckers does approximately nothing to help unvaccinated cross-border truckers because they are still subject to the US rules regarding vaccination status when entering back into the United States. Again, this just goes to show that the protests in Ottawa have nothing to do with actual cross-border trucking. It would require international cooperation to actually address the alleged issue at hand.
Now, with regards to the matter of whether truckers traveling alone are the cause of the hospitals being full: The Omicron variant didn't originate in Canada. The virus was imported into the country from outside through a human vessel and was only able to establish itself in the country due to a violation of quarantine. No doubt the Omicron variant entered the country multiple times through multiple carriers.
Probably some of these carriers were subject to quarantine rules and violated the rules. Possibly some of these carriers were exempt from quarantine rules to begin with. But as a matter of fact, the reason the hospitals are full is because some people came into the country and didn't adequately quarantine, regardless of whether they were required to or if they were exempt.
Now, I do get it. Canada is not New Zealand. Our COVID border protections are a sieve. There was no way Omicron was ever going to be kept out of Canada. But just because our border protections are a sieve, isn't reason to eliminate them. Our goal here is not to prevent COVID from existing in Canada. Our goal is to spread out when people get sick over time so the people who will require hospital services don't all require it simultaneously. And it is plausible that our sieve can help in that regards.
When Omicron first enters Canada, it will spread more slowly if the "seeds" we are importing are spread out over time. The fewer seeds that are planted, and the more time in between them, both spreads out when people fall ill and gives more time to administer booster shots to the most at risk people.
With that all said, Omicron is now firmly planted in Canada. Whether cross-border travelers of any kind import Omicron basically makes no difference. So, as long as COVID doesn't mutate to move from the the second most contagious virus known to the most contagious virus known or otherwise escape immunity, the border policy isn't really effective at doing anything anymore. From my armchair it seems very unlikely that COVID has room to grow more contagious. But I also felt the same thing about Delta, so WTF do I know.
Therefore, I defer to those who hopefully know more than I do. If government advisors say, "hey, this COVID thing is well past its peak. Border policy is no longer doing anything meaningful. There is no longer any point in keeping it." then I'll be on board with that. If government advisors say, "so long as COVID continues to run its mutation experiments in millions of human shaped petri dishes across the globe, we will continue to keep our COVID border sieve in place." then I'm on board with that too. And if that means 10% less cross-border trucking capacity, then I'm okay with that too.
I also saw the anti-governent signs, but I don't blame the people for it, although it may make the protest less effective in achieving something on the short term.
I have seen far right protests before, and this just doesn't look like that, even if it was initiated by a far right group.
I measure harm in units other than economies, and so this equation is meaningless to me. It may be strictly true in some sense but I don't understand it as demanding any particular response.
Stockholm syndrome probably isn't real either btw.
Thank you. It's too often forgotten that markets and economies exist to serve humans, not the other way around.
The air horns that they've been blaring at 100-120db (or more) is tied to the air system that supplies the brakes. If they can blare the horn, they've got air pressure to release the brakes.
> Heavy-duty tow trucks can transfer air from their system to the trucks to release the brakes, Allen said. Failing that, they could "cage" the brakes, which involves manually backing the brake off each individual wheel.
"We have all the capabilities on our tow trucks to do it … but I don't think anyone would want to," he said.
That's because many companies who provide heavy towing would be hesitant to risk their relationships with trucking companies, Allen said.
This all started with an epic failure by the OPS and the city of Ottawa for allowing vehicles right up the hill in the first place.
They don't have problems shutting down all car traffic for Canada Day, or other events like La Machine. Hell, I've seen specific barriers meant to trap and disable cars in the Byward market.
If you want to determine intention, you're better off looking at action over words. The action taken thus far by the OPS says a hell of a lot.
>But Skof said removing the convoy is a more difficult task: "You're talking about pedestrians for one thing, versus vehicles that weigh thousands of pounds."
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This is the same lesson regarding weapons. Those with tools of force can oppose the government, while those without cannot.
Maybe left-wing groups need to buy a few Freightliners for future protests.
My point is that you can resist government forces when you have the right tools. (Or when the police are on your side).
Now’a the time for a major heist or terror activity there.
But then again it is also showing that perhaps the cops side more with the right-leaning "protests".
I’m from the US, and each side of the aisle has its own methods that it can employ effectively. The Canada seems pretty similar in this regard.
That... seems counterproductive if you want the trucks gone?
7 day forecast puts it at -20C at night.
They're staying in the cabs at night, and they can blare their horn, if there's fuel.
Trudeau isn't escalating because he can't. He no longer has popular support for his mandates from the electorate or within his own government.
The reality is it's past time to remove the mandates anyway. Even die-hard laggard California is dropping most of the mandates this Monday. It seems like Trudeau is more worried about the appearance of his 'Authoritah" slipping.
It’s disturbing to see how many here on HN are calling for violent/destructive solutions rather than the one that respects citizens rights.
[1] https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/criminal-civil-rights-viol...
I am vaccinated but I stand with my brothers and sisters who demand a choice. Had it been mandated and had I known then what I know now, I would have not taken it.
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/13/us/politics/supreme-court...
There's also no pushback against vaccination requirements for school and universities, but I'm sure that will be coming soon
'strong legal ground' yet the Supreme Court disagreed with you.
You can posit about the future all you want, it won't change the reality of the present.
Now I no longer believe you are commenting in good faith, you are simply pushing an agenda.
State level mandates are considered to be constitutional, it's the broad federal mandate without employment specialization that wasn't considered constitutional.
This isn't moving goal posts but providing context.
These are luxuries not rights. You don't have the right to go to a bar. Drink at home.
Unless you're in Quebec, where the unvax don't have the right to buy alcohol for home consumption, either.
When RESTRICTED CLIENTELE was searched for there were 456 results that were shown. The meaning of restricted clientele meant that Jews and Blacks were not welcome at those establishments which were scattered across the Country.
Does that mean that the government has the right to deny the population anything not spelled out as a right in the constitution? That sounds unlimited to me. Don't western governments usually have their responsibilities a bit more narrowly defined?
Granted covid is an emergency. I guess the question is how big an emergency something needs to be before allowing the government to place restrictions that would otherwise be unconstitutional. Reasonable people differ on their opinion of the tradeoffs involved, especially as we move through time.
The people who work at the restaurants have a right to a healthy and safe work environment (this is why smoking was banned in restaurants).
These worker rights trump the "right" of someone to be able to go to a restaurant in a way that puts workers' health at risk. The reasons is because that worker has no choice, while on the other side, the other person has choices of: 1) get vaccinated or 2) feed themselves by making a sandwich at home.
This is why the only stuff that is getting shut down are things at the intersection of "not essential" and "notable cause of cases."
I've felt especially bad for young people who are at minimal risk from covid, having their lives turned upside down, who will inherit the extra trillions of dollars of debt all this will have cost.
For the purposes of covid I'm not sure if that is a black and white situation legally, at least in the U.S. Neither the rights of workers or patrons are spelled out as constitutional rights, because the constitution limits the government. This even kind of came up in the Supreme Court, which said that OSHA does not have the right to mandate vaccines in the name of workplace safety.
But doesn't the degree of danger and the trade-off involved in lockdowns matter? There's been a lot of mitigations against covid, some which make more sense than others as we've learned more, some that have costly effects - both financial and otherwise, especially for young people. Some look at the total count of 931k dead in the U.S. and want to do more. Some look at the same number as 1 out of 350 of the population, skewing old and unhealthy, and think we've done too much. We don't close restaurants for the flu, which kills tens of thousands of people.
I don't think this comes down to just a workplace safety issue. I think the degree of danger is quite important, and honest people have very different opinions of the risks and tradeoffs involved. The degree of danger and the mitigations required to make a difference in that danger are better known and quite different than two years ago. That is why there will be more and more calls to remove the existing mitigations.
A large, large percentage of the population disagrees and we're now playing a game of chicken. Who will win?
This is not a group that's united around decades of systemic oppression like other civil rights movements. They're united against a common enemy. If the mandate goes away, so do the truckers.
There's enough medical dissent surrounding the topic to warrant pause, especially for something that gives no value to the receiver (young, healthy folks).
[0] https://ethanmaurice.com/books/zen-and-the-art-of-motorcycle...
It... doesn't sound like it? Canada's vaccination rate overall is incredibly high at 80%, for truckers specifically somebody in the thread above is mentioning 90%, which is believable.
So, there is the minority, the 10%, who are already losing money by idling, but also risk their job, more losses, fines and jailtime, just to absolutely refuse to do what... spend 5 minutes at a pharmacy? And do what 90% of their peers already did? Really doesn't sound like life disruption.
In terms of disruption, my understanding is that mandates for truckers came into effect just 3 weeks ago.
Democracy can/should be more nuanced than simple majority/mob rule. Super majorities, local rule, and consensus are all ways of achieving that. Ideally groups of people would not be allowed to impose on other groups of people. I'm just throwing out a general statement about the idea of democracy, food for thought.
Many places haven't voted on lockdowns. I think Switzerland did at some point, which makes sense (as they are more of a real democracy than Canada). There's an initial emergency that may need a quick response, but later on there is time for the people to vote.
Your point about the minority dictating policy by attrition is interesting to think about. Conservatives might tend to like that feature, not adding new laws unless enough people agree. I assume Progressives would tend to feel the opposite. I'd add that the amount of people voting would seem to make a big difference. It's hard for tens or hundreds of millions of people to agree, easier for smaller groups. Compromise is also a wonderful thing, too, when the 85% respect the 15% enough to do so.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-director-covid-...
"If you give me a torch and no libability, and salvage rights, I will guarantee you all the trucks will be removed by the end of the week, for free."
Done. Who says the tires have to be treated nicely?
https://www.ontario.ca/document/official-air-brake-handbook/...
What percentage of protesters is swinging swastika flags?
But at the point a commercial of licensed vehicle is illegally blocking downtown traffic for days, if they want to make it hard to remove there is no reason to gently remove the truck. Hell they can get a few acetylene torches and just start cutting.
It is a bit suspicious that this is a grassroots movement actually against vaccine mandates, considering the attention and financial support it has been getting... and specially considering how the Canadian government is handling it. Trudeau dissappearing, no real possibility of negotiations, talks or anything... and who is even leading these protests? It seems very strange.
Even more strange is the likes of CNN publishing opinion pieces in favor of the protests: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/03/opinions/canada-truckers-...