Ask HN: What keeps you from beginning your Start Up?

Nothing, I'm on my second one.

Oh, and to answer your question, what made me go start my own business is I couldn't stand the way things were done in the big corp world.

I'm impatient. I want to get things done. I want to achieve things. I cannot stand the idea of being given orders. I have no respect for authority, only for competence. I want to realise my potential. The tedious and endless game of corporate politics bullshit is just a problem to be solved, as I see it. And one valid solution for it is to get out. This game just isn't worth the candle. What do you get for learning the ropes of the politics game? More politics. It's self-defeating. "The only way to win is not to play".

The corporate world also has a well earned reputation for being bland and boring. All the dishonesty and obsequiousness that comes out of needing to maintain a "normal" image makes it conforming like a mass of grey goo. Embrace weirdness and difference. Accept the idea that exceptional people are not normal. Then maybe it'll be less bland.

I haven't looked back since I quit. Life is so much more varied and interesting. I only ever do things that I think are worth doing. I work at my own pace (which is 10x faster than anything I ever observed in the corporate world). I work exclusively with brilliant people, doing something which I think is worthwhile.

Even if there wasn't more money in the long term, this is an infinitely preferable lifestyle.

What about you, yourself, who asked this question? Why do you stick around in this corporate world? If you're wondering why all these people are leaving, maybe you should go and find out for yourself. Believe me, it's worth it.

Oh yeah, and one more thing...

all your standard developer care and feeding: snacks, beverages, free lunches.

Really? At your company, can I stay in bed or spend the day doing something else when I hit one of those days when I don't feel like working? Can I work in my dressing gown? Can I prepare my own food in my own kitchen? Can I have a 10-second commute from my bedroom to my office? Can I have a nap whenever I want to? A 2-hour nap?

Perks-wise, working in most corporations doesn't hold a candle to working for yourself.

Well, I get all of these, except for the preparing food part( which I anyways can't). And I work for a really big company :)

+5 for this one I'm impatient. The ease at which established companies take important matters and the time it requires to have a simple change kills me. And decisions take an eternity.

Life is so much more varied and interesting. I only ever do things that I think are worth doing. I work at my own pace (which is 10x faster than anything I ever observed in the corporate world). I work exclusively with brilliant people, doing something which I think is worthwhile.

I have no personal experience with the statement above. Perhaps the closest I have come was telecommuting and doing project work for a couple of years.

Even if there wasn't more money in the long term, this is an infinitely preferable lifestyle.

After 11 years working for some of the biggest companies in the world and becoming increasingly miserable, I sincerely hope this is true. Sounds good on paper, anyway.

I never work in a company before. Now I am still a student. But, I have this intention that I am going to start my own startup after I graduate( hopefully I don't have to wait after I graduate ). As a student majoring in Computer Science, I feel that the rules and regulations in the school really don't favor a business-minded programmer.

Personally, I really don't like the formal schedule that you have to follow strictly( imagine you have to go to your company everyday 0-5 ). Programmer usually likes to code when the ideas come. And, this "productive time" is varied with person. So, fixed working time in big corp really is not an ideal environment for a programmer.

I don't think startup people are "quitting their boss" (i.e. running FROM something), but they are rather running TO something that is magical and not entirely rationale. Statistically/financially, it's a dumb decision to start a startup-- but it doesn't matter. You can sit down, run the numbers, make pro/con lists-- but it doesn't matter. You've already lost. Here's what you can't match:

1) The big win. You can heap stock options on him, but your board will block you from giving a dev more than 1% or so, I presume.

2) His baby. His own company. A sense of TRUE ownership.

3) A clean slate. New companies/new products are more fun than existing ones for a lot of people.

4) Having ANY boss. Everyone rolls their eyes at even the best boss SOMETIMES. The irony is that, if he succeeds, he'll be that boss. But it's a great feeling to NO MATTER what, be able to fix something that organizationally broken if you think it's important. To be where the buck stops.

5) Fame/notoriety. Some people are motivated by this. If your startup wins, he'll be an unnamed dev in a winning startup. If his startup wins, he'll be the guy the led it there. Either way, it feels WAY cooler to say "I own my own company" when someone says, "so what do you do?".

Doing a startup isn't a sensible CAREER decision... It's a largely emotional lifestyle decision.

| 2) His baby. His own company. A sense of TRUE ownership.

I'm surprised that more people aren't making this point.

I think it's common among entrepreneurs to take ownership of some idea -- not in terms of stock or revenue, but more like parenthood -- and want to see it through to completion, on their terms, their way.

I like the last line Doing a startup isn't a sensible CAREER decision... It's a largely emotional lifestyle decision

Have I missed anything?

Yeah, you've missed everything. It's a nice idea to try and give an employee what he's looking for from a startup within your corporate environment, but it's just not possible. Corporate employees exist to build wealth for someone else. That's just the reality of the situation. There are a lot of benefits that come with corporate life, primarily stability, but if he wants freedom, he won't get it working for someone else. When I was an employee, I had to remind myself that every benefit and incentive was an addicting trap, designed to keep me from leaving. A steady paycheck will erode an entrepreneur's soul over time, because you come to rely on it and striking out on your own is that much harder.

To be clear, I think it's commendable that you're trying to provide a great environment for your employees, but I think the best case scenario here is that you'll work hard to keep him, and you might succeed, but something inside him will die a little and he'll always wonder if he made the right choice. Why not just let him go give it a shot? I think it'll cost you more in the long run to fight it than it would to just get a new employee.

And I know we don't want to get sidetracked on this, but entrepreneurs do not "quit their boss". They absolutely do quit their jobs because they long for the freedom and rush of creating something on their own, no matter how awesome their boss is. If you disagree, perhaps that indicates more about the difference between a corporate and entrepreneurial mindset than anything else.

Be the first to fund his startup.

This is one mistake employers do. Do not try to retain him. If he wants it enough (and in this case he does) he will sooner or later find a way to make it happen.

Join him. Give him office space. You can still use his brain while he is around.

EDIT: Entrepreneurs should also not be afraid to share their ambitions with their boss. That is only if your boss started his own business. You may find a new partner in your boss. Remember that those who made it always want to help others make it as well. They will see themselves in you and noone can resist that.

That's really not a bad idea at all. I don't know all of the circumstances of their situation, but they might be able to set something up where jmagar will earnestly support and help launch his employee's startup, for a share of the action. While the startup's getting off the ground, the employee might be able to continue a few responsibilities at the company.

I know I would have jumped at a chance like that, mostly because I was scared witless of being without a regular paycheck.

For me, it's freedom. And only he can give that to himself. I would say your best option is to support his decision, but give him a big welcoming door to walk back in if his startup doesn't work out. Sometimes people with the drive to do things on their own need to try it first, and maybe it won't work out for him. Then he will come back to your company with that much more experience, plus he will be more invested in your company emotionally as you supported him along the way.

It's hard to lose good people, but even harder to see somebody leave their dreams on the table.

Im in Peru, so I first have to figure out a way to move to a startup hub and only then can I start. I'm possibly going for a scholarship to do a masters, which would delay me (I must finish it, being a scholarship I can't drop out), but at least would get me there. This is kinda frustrating, because to get a scholarship I must have good grades, but studying steals hacking time...

In the meantime, I'm honing my programming skills. I've been programming for a while now, I'd say that I'm intermediate. I know Pascal, C, Python, and bits of Java, C# and Lisp (I'll look deeper into this one though). My main objective now is to design and code larger apps.

As someone who makes fun of folks who say "{place} is just as good for startups as SV", I want to point out that you don't have to move to a startup hub to do a startup.

There are advantages to doing a startup where you are. If/when you move, it will take you a while to learn as much as you currently know about the resources where you are now. In addition, you can start now instead of waiting.

Agreed. It's a lot harder to start a startup away from a hub, but really, it's going to be hard to raise funding, and even harder to succeed in your first startup anyway. You might as well go through the motions once to learn how to do it before the stakes are higher. At a minimum you'll learn what running a business is about. Plus, if you're living somewhere like Peru with low cost of living and focusing on an international market, bootstrapping is a lot more practical.

There's just no way to rise funds here :(

My plan is to program some big stuff myself, so as to learn about design; read the code of some open source software, to learn how others design; and program something from scratch with someone else and submit patches to an OS software, to learn how to work with other hackers. I hope that teaches me what I need.

(1) Don't do a startup that requires raising funds. (2) You probably can't raise funds in SV either.

While there are many things that are easier to build in SV, there are things that are easier to build elsewhere.

More to the point, people who build things in SV could almost certainly build things other places, they'd just build different things. If you can't build anything where you are, is it really reasonable to think that you could build something in SV?

I'm still in high school, but this summer i had a chance of getting a job. I didn't get one, instead i decided that i need to learn to program better and learn a few new languages. I also learned to draw, and I've been working on my writing style and my English. I also learned a lot of otter stuff(how to meditate for example). I don't know if I'll ever get a "real job", but I'll avoid it if i can. I probably will get one eventually, money is not useless. We like adventure more, and don't like having a boss in general(or any other authority figure for that matter). We are not afraid of failure, if we fail, big deal, we can take it(job security is for people who are afraid of change). I don't know how many hackers are like this, but from what I read on HN, there are a lot of them. You should ask your hacker about his plan, he may have good reasons.

I really recommend you take a real job at some point in your life for at least 6 months.

Some of the best lessons in life come from contrast. Being able to remember what it was like at a regular job provides a lot of motivation for people to continue working hard at their own company. You will also learn some good lessons about what to do, what not to do and make contacts.

One of the "best" corporate experiences I had was when I worked for BMW for 5 months. I now understand how large corporate engineering companies work, and that I NEVER want to work for one. Sometimes you have to do something that sucks, so that you know that you don't want to do that and to look out for it in the future.

I probably will, but i doubt it will be a programming job, but who knows? I don't.

Savings is the most important thing...once you have enough savings you can walk out.

If you really want to keep the guy around, make it easy for him to do his startup while he still works for you. i.e. have him spend 60% of the time working on your stuff, and 40% of the time are free for him to work on his startup. If he gets that security he'll probably stick around.

And chances are he'll be able to provide the same amount of productivity during that time.

For me it's the need to try and do something for myself, and to do something that is excellent - something I'm proud of.

I've been in large corporates for 10 years. A corporate can basically never compete against this kind of desire (which, is actually quite rare).

Even though I've got more senior over the years, you just end up with less control over more - until you reach the point that you're just a powerpoint jockey.

It's almost impossible to do something innovative at a large corporate - because of the inertia and the massive amount of consensus building that's required to do anything different. Pure design doesn't exist, it's an exercise in compromise.

That's not meant to knock it. The environment suits many (i.e most) people. It won't suit everyone though.

Personally, I've never found going over the top to keep someone around is a good idea - If someone wants to leave to broaden their horizons, I'd encourage it.

Sometimes they leave and succeed - then they're a great person to keep in contact with. Sometimes they leave and it doesn't work out - in this case they sometimes come back, and usually a much better and more capable person for the experience.

Have you ever made him do something in a specific way, because of "enterprise"-reasons, politics and "that's the way we do it" instead of arguments?

Do you make him run windows, when he'd rather use a Mac or Linux, because he has to use Visual Studio? Did he ever suggest that you do a project in Ruby or Python, to be told that "we're a Java shop"?

Do you have bureaucratic rules? Do you make him punch in and out, and log time down to the minute? Are certain websites blocked because they are not work-related?

Is the working environment pleasant. Are you six developers and two PMs on cheap chairs and small tables, in a 300 sq ft office, with hard floors and no sound dampening?

Is management not only a step up in salary and responsibility, but also access to unrelated perks like a better chair?

But mostly, I think, it was the "talk the talk" about creative minds, and not walk a single step of the road, that made sick of that place.

a good idea keeps me from starting my next startup right now.

i've said this many times before here, but one of the biggest things that prevent people from starting a startup is the instability of the startup. the family man or person with larger financial responsibilities will usually need the steady paycheck.

some of the pro-big-company arguments that you make are off the mark.

make more money? yes, in the short term. with the risk of a startup, there's potential for great reward, especially if the company gets acquired.

ownership/equity? those are nice, but you typically get more with a startup.

responsibility? career path? sure, you get some control, but not nearly as much as you will in a startup with a small team. you get to do so much more when working on a startup.

influence? again, so few people, your voice counts way more, especially if you're an expert at something.

company benefits/culture? they don't even compare. a company can pay for lunch, great, but that doesn't mean that they understand what the people want (my company is a good example of that). "paid vaccations"? typical startups don't track hours and you take off the time that you need when you need it. just get your work done.

Offer him a pathway. Making a startup will be hard on him, so if you offer a soft job and allow him time to work on his ideas, he will stay.

But if he has the bug, he will leave at some point. You can't hold down a ramblin man...

Your post in and of itself is why your employee wants to found a startup. Instead of sitting down directly with him and saying, "What will it take to keep you here?" and listening to the nitty gritty of what he wants for himself, which would totally make your post here unncessary, you are posting here, trying to convince everyone bullet by bullet why corporate life is the shiz and looking for someone to hand you some magical answer that you can whisper in his ear to get him to continue working for you.

Look at it this way; people don't leave companies when they:

a) Have a vested interest in staying (they share in the rewards) b) They believe in the company's vision. c) They believe the company is run by competent individuals who can execute that vision.

The freedom to develop code I want to in the manner I wish to. Enough of the usual crappy corporate tools/procedures/apathy.

To be judged on what I produce not how many hours I'm in the office.

Rewards equal to my contribution, this is where corporations fall down completely. If I'm ten times more productive than my team mates why am I not rewarded in such a manner OR to be more truthful I will not put in any more effort than is needed to secure my position in the corporate hierarchy. So I dutifully do what I consider a mediocre amount of work and yet am rewarded in the top 10%

I couldn't care less for the crappy soda and chips or a paid lunch. Pay me the money and I'll decide how I wish to spend it.

I like to create new things; develop new ideas and build them. In most jobs, you are but a cog in the machine, and have relatively little creative allowance. I just churn out code per requirements, or test code per requirements, or write requirements per requirements. Not a whole lot of in-depth thinking seems to occur.

Personal time off, and ability to set my own schedule. In a job, my ability to take time off to travel, do volunteer work, do research, whatever, is not so much limited by a lack of money as it is by a lack of formal vacation time. If I want to take two months off a year, and have the money to do so, then I want to be able to do it. If I want to set my own hours to best suit other things in my life, I don't want to be confined to the general expectation of 8-5 M-F.

And yes, money does play a factor. In most jobs, you and your peers make the same salary plus or minus 5%, regardless of how hard you work or how inventive you are. If I can work harder and/or smarter and produce something worth more money to more people, then why should I not reap the financial benefits of my labor?

There certainly are advantages to working at a regular job, among them fairly reliable income and insurance benefits and what-not. But even so, employment can be fickle. If "the economy" turns sour, your job may not be as stable as it seems.

(Actually, I would advocate spending time running multiple diverse business projects, to help balance out "the economy".)

This may sound glib, but have you asked him?

Have you explored with him, with you in a Coaching/Mentoring role, where he sees himself heading; who he sees himself being; what effects he sees himself making over the next year / 2 years / 5 years / at retirement?

Once you have the answers to those (and he may not have fully considered these things himself, to that degree of clarity and detail), you can then work together to see if any options exist where you both get what you want.

It's an incorrect assumption that you can't work on a startup while working at a company. If you have a boring 8 hour day job, you still have sixteen hours left in the day. The first 8 hours may be mind-numbing and leave you exhausted and incapable of independant thought, but focus hard enough and you can get a decent 6-8 hours for a quality coding spree at minimum. You just have to get used to the work.

If you have a boring 8 hour day job, you still have sixteen hours left in the day.

Of course, you're going to spend 6-8 hours out of those 16 sleeping. And 1-4 hours travelling to and from work. And 0.5-1 hours preparing and eating breakfast and dinner (I'm assuming you have lunch during your 8 hours at work). And at least 0.5 hours showering/shaving/brushing teeth/getting dressed/etc.

focus hard enough and you can get a decent 6-8 hours for a quality coding spree at minimum

If you only need 6 hours/day of sleep and live five minutes from where you work, sure. But for most people there simply aren't enough hours in the day to stay alive while working two full-time jobs.

tell that to the mobwars guy who is getting sued by his old company because they are claiming he created it while he was supposed to be working on their stuff

A start up is desirable because:

1) Chance for a life changing payday, that could free you from the burden of working (if that were desirable - I have a theory that working is more fun when it isn't required).

2) Ability to control how the game is played. You don't want to lose because you were forced to follow someone else's direction - if you lose it should be your own damn fault.

If you can create these two things in a big company, let me know :)

Risk. I'm risk-averse (as most people who objectively have it pretty good are). I have shit to loose.

Bureaucracy. I hate that I can't just do something. Ironically, the level of bureaucracy might be less at my job than if I worked for myself because if I work for myself I have to do lots of crap like dealing with laws that govern companies. I could hire a lawyer/accountant, but that gets back to Risk.

Sites like this. They make you think too much about scaling and building for a billion users. Databases don't scale. None of them. You do have to turn to a dumber object store at some point and loose a lot of query power. I'm moving past this mental roadblock.

Winner-take-all economies. A lot of what I would like to create isn't likely to result in money. This isn't because they don't have value. It's because they aren't good without lots of users. This is the most aggravating. Once users are using one thing, even if you're better, they just use that one thing for the same reason that more data trumps better algorithms.

What stops me starting a business or even working for a startup?

A 6 month old daughter and a wife who's been made redundant. All dreams and ambitions play second fiddle to keeping your family alive.

My day job was a smallish business that got bought out by one of the largest IT companies in the world and the birth rate has shot up dramatically since we were acquired.

I work 30 hours a week. I'm taking a heavier course load than I ever have. And to top it off, I'm in a semi-long-distance relationship (3 hour drive) and make every effort to see my SO.

My current job isn't so bad, either. The pay is peanuts, but it isn't "corporate" (100-ish employees, but just 6 in my department) and they've been great about working around my school schedule for the last 4 years.

So yeah, jumping feet-first into entrepreneurial waters is appealing to me for all the usual reasons, but I just don't have the time to devote to it right now. And weekends are off limits, too.

I should have more time in the spring, but Spring Fever usually starts early for me. :)

I jump between working for myself and working for other people somewhat regularly.

Right now for example, I have what I think is the perfect job. The pay is good, I work on interesting problems, I drive all the dates and functionality; basically I am getting paid to make all the IT decisions and I have enough budget to do things the way I want to do them.

But even though I have the perfect job, it still feels like servitude. So, at some point I'll have the next idea I think is worth striking out to try, and I'll be gone. It won't be because I dislike my job; but it will be because it's in my genes to go out to the frontier and pan for gold.

Is it influence, decision making, and direction setting? Well, we kinda fall down there. Many cooks in this kitchen, and most have greater influence than is available to him. His voice is heard of course, and great ideas are easy to spot no matter who they come from, but if he expects his voice to win out every time I can't provide any assurances that it will be so.

That's probably the biggest one, if I had to guess. I don't know what this individual's motivations are, but if he has his heart set on something you're best not to pull a subtly different direction, the impedance match will eventually cause something to give, and maybe not on the best terms.

Now, maybe you can flip this from a specific role to a personnel management pattern.

You've clearly found someone who has been a valuable member of your team. You might believe that some of the things that would make someone a good entrepreneur would make them a good employee for your company, and from the outside, at least, that seems pretty sane. Someone who is intelligent, has drive, and is interested in all aspects of the business seems like the kind of person you'd want to have working for you.

If you know you can't hold on to good people like this forever, maybe you could build a culture of growing people up and out. I don't think it would take a whole lot -- open, "face-up" handling of the business in the presence of your employees, a positive attitude towards contractors, mentoring and maintaining good relationships after they've left, and the opportunity to come back should the gig not work out and you have a position available, are all non-cash things that seem to basically be heresy to the standard beige manager, and I can't for the life of me figure out why. They also are generally things that you can do toward the end of the employee relationship where you appear to be now.

Don't throw him out of the nest, of course, but definitely encourage him to spread his wings. Think of it as putting a little "Sponsored By: OurCo, Inc" on his brain. He'll either fail at his task and possibly come back as a better, more mature employee, or he'll soar, and he'll be thinking of your company in a positive light when he is networking like no tomorrow. Sounds like a win for you either way. :)

Let's not forget the other things that corporate life provides that Start Ups simply can't compete against: we've got cash which means all your standard developer care and feeding: snacks, beverages, free lunches. With cash comes profit sharing, job security, benefits, paid vacations, etc.

These are the kinds of things that "concerned" family and friends will point out. They're nice things, but I think the arguments about their value just amount to FUD to a person longing to make a move. They are reasons not to leave, not reasons to stay.

The security blanket is nice and its probably what keeps most people in their place in a kind of Matrix mentality. Startups only offer the truth of what you dare to be vs what the blue pill offers you.

He has you, and all that corporate goodness but thats just it, you have him. He needs more.

I think only thing you're missing here is the sheer creation aspect. Creating, manifesting that did not exist before and won't go beyond your napkin sketch unless you take it somewhere.

Depending on how far you're willing to go with this, there is the best of both worlds. Give him command over a group. If they get somewhere, offer the chance to lead a spinoff.

The other thing that'll hold a hacker in a job is a hot wife and a good family life. A man's focus can change over life, and one can prefer to put their heart there instead of in the industry. Of course, there are few legal ways to work in this area...

I'm slow to develop mine for the worst reason in the world: I can't program.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I have a coder's mind. I'm content with sitting down for hours and nitpicking code until it works just fine. It's just that I don't know the languages I need to know, and so development happens slowly.

It's happening, don't get me wrong. But if I could actually program, this thing would be out in a week, rather than a month or more.

I'm wondering if you have the same issue I do, the day job is pulling more of your programming bandwidth than you think it is.

In my case I'm dealing with a virtual river of shit, and when I get home, I don't want to touch the computer at all. And when I do make time for programming, it's very hard to get into flow because it's usually 'sandwich time' stuck between other responsibilities.

I've got something similar. I'm in college, just started, and there's a prevalent feeling that spending hours in your room not being social is a bad thing. When I DO get in front of the computer, it's harder to push forward.

Progress is happening, though, so I'm optimistic.

Have I missed anything?

Yes.

No matter how pretty you make your diapers, they still have your baby's shit in them.

Entrepreneurs want to change their own babies' diapers.

And parents just want to be able to afford diapers - so a risky startup with long hours and little immediate pay, is very hard pill to swallow. Startups are great in your early twenties (I worked in 3 -- all bust now) but your life (hopefully!) won't always remain as carefree. For most people, 30's and 40's are a different matter altogether.

To join the several comments here: let him work on his startup part-time (20-40%) during work hours, as long as he gets his responsibilities done. I've quantified this idea a bit in a blog post: http://blog.ezlearnz.com/post/40316576/the-6-hour-workday

I would agree that most people quit their boss and not their job, there's empirical evidence to support this. However it isn't true all the time. I'm wondering if what he wants to do more interesting to him than what he is doing at the moment? Does it scratch his itch?

Freedom. You can't keep someone employed that values freedom. A startup offers freedom from being a "wage-slave". It offers liberation from indentured servitude and if that is what your employee values, nothing you do will satisfy him.

If you don't think you can stop him, don't try to fight it. Let him quit, and work out a part-time consulting deal. If you really think so highly of this guy, offer to become his first client and maybe invest in his new venture.

I have been working for more than a decade in startups, and when folks as me why im still continuing doing so, simple answer is- the passion and the drive to work on something innovate, that, someday will change the world.

Procrastination.

Sometimes it not as much about money as it is control of your destiny and the ability to do interesting work

20% to do whatever you want (as long as it makes things better), kept me in the corporate environment ...

Knowledge. I believe it is very important to know the code behind the startup.

Why is it so important for you to keep him?

A killer idea.