Hacker News Reader

Comment by version_five | Hacker News Reader

What do these people (like the twitter poster) think a protest is? It's supposed to be something people can't ignore.

The few that are loudly complaining about the protest appear to believe we should never speak up no matter how badly the government and our fellow citizens treat us. And instead of actually engaging with the subject of the protest - intrusive mandates and documentation requests - they would rather either complain about petty things like honking, or somehow imagine the government has lost control of the country because some truckers parked downtown for a few days. In any case, I think the freaking out by a select few we've seen over this is so ridiculous that it hopefully supports the trucker's case in the minds of normal people here

View on HN

Seems like most people aren't used to huge protests like we used to have in western countries. Real protests (for things like worker's rights, preventing wrongful laws from passing) were quite common 20 years ago at least in Western Europe. I guess after only one generation makes people forget about them.

Things like demonstrations at every big city, roads closed with barricades, public transport frequency reductions, even shops, offices and factories halting for a day or two.

Ottawa is well under control (for now). The Ottawa or Canadian governments can evacuate the city whenever they want. They have three ways, negotiation, accepting what the movement wants or repression (which would hit Canada's reputation quite badly).

You know they're blasting air horns in residential streets, right? Air horns that are 100-120db range, typically found on semis, not counting aftermarket soupped up ones.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/servi...

At 100db, 24 minutes of exposure within 24 hours is considered damaging to hearing. At 120dB, it's basically instantaneous damage to hearing. And lot of them have been doing that to harass residents.

If I walk down the street, jab something in someone's ear and damage their hearing, I'd be rightfully charge with assault (probably with a weapon). How is this any different?

This city is well versed in protest, even protests that could shutdown Wellington st, right in front of the hill. It's naive, at the very minimum, to even let these vehicles park right up the hill and blare their horns day and night.

If you think this is just a minor inconvenience, come to downtown and stand next to one of these trucks when the air horn goes off.

Standing next to one of those trucks during the protest, is like standing in a building alone in the midst of George Floyd protests, except you get engulfed in flames instead of your ear drums ruined.

And getting your ear drums ruined is no happy thing. Which is why it is crazy silencers are illegal.

The loudness of everything falls off with distance. How far away is the 100-120dB measured from, and how far away are these ones from the residents?

Does the government not have a responsibility to protect fair use of the commons by all people?

If you agree that the government has that responsibility, then the government needs to maintain its rule over the commons, which has clearly been lost in downtown Ottawa.

Also, the demonstrators have been there for over a week, lacking a permit for their demonstration, often honking all night long and keeping awake the people who live nearby. There have been numerous reports of assaults by demonstrators because the victims had the audacity to wear a mask while walking in the vicinity of the demonstration.

> because some truckers parked downtown for a few days

Truck horns have been blaring 24/7 for 9 days in a residential area.

Sounds like a good way to get attention for people who have been ignored for too long. Hard to ignore this.

I have to show my "vaccine passport" to go to the hardware store (in a mask), literally. People are being fired over their refusal to share medical information. All off this is far more existentially bad than "honking". Yet for some reason, that's what people focus on.

> Yet for some reason, that's what people focus on.

The people or the media?

Depriving people of sleep through loud noises is quite literally a torture method.

1. You've obviously never experienced such noise pollution.

2. Even worse than both are dozens of mostly preventable deaths per day in Ontario alone.

I think it's the Nazi flags. Symbols of treason and rebellion, expressions of violent intent towards fellow citizens. It stopped being fellow citizens with disagreeable and even laughable views expressing their right to freely assemble and express themselves then and there.

Personally, for the vast majority (hoping) that only care about the vaccine mandate I don't care one bit. But for the nazi and confederate flag waving people, my frustration is against the law much more than the people, why is it unlawful to grant them their wish and meet them with violence if the government is unwilling to arrest and punish them for it. Nazism is not protected speech, it is worse than the classic example of "shouting fire in a crowd" it is promoting and seeding hatred and violence in hopes of genocide! The only acceptable Nazi is a dead Nazi. 50 million people didn't die so we can forget.

Just in case anyone's reading this, there are no nazi's in the protest. There may have been some design essentially equating vaccine mandates with nazi-ism, and that got jumped on as "look, they're nazis!!!!!"

Even if a few undesirables do show up to the protest, it's squarely about mandates, despite what the people complaining might want you to believe. At least imagine that it's possible to simply have had enough of the covid restrictions, without having some additional "extremist" agenda.

Also, it's a pretty serious accusation to call someone a Nazi...

I am talking about the people waving actual Nazi and confederate flags. No one else. My comment if you read carefully points out that I have no problem with the majority of protesters but the fact that Nazis joined freely without resistance makes me angry against the authorities.

> makes me angry against the authorities

Maybe you should protest

Only if violence against nazis is legalized. I don't believe in annoying people to make a change, what has been given can be taken away. But what you take after convincing others or by force, you can keep so long as reason or strength is on your side. I will write nicely worded letters to legislators if it comes to it.

Oh boy... Here we go again... Why does standing up for everyone's rights have to result in so many strange uncomfortable bedfellows?

>If a BLM protester waves a Nazi flag or whatever the opposite is that wishes death to some group of people, treat them the same and punish them or legalize violent response against them. Why do I have to stand silent and watch while others plot and promote genocide?

Because, as long as they keep their repugnance to themselves, it ain't your problem or anyone elses. They can screech and holler all they want, and as long as they only do that, any civilized person will roll their eyes and go on about their day.

>Only if violence against nazis is legalized.

You know, the Nazi's actually did that. Are you sure that you want to go down that path? Beware that you not become that which you so detest.

>I don't believe in annoying people to make a change.

You actually do, you just haven't come across something that hits close enough to home yet.

>What has been given can be taken away. But what you take after convincing others or by force, you can keep so long as reason or strength is on your side.

An appeal to might makes right? Rights are something granted by the tolerance of the authorities? How positively authoritarian of you. Humorously, you also share that aspect of political thinking with them.

You can't claim the moral high ground if you're just going to turn around and repeat the people in question's mistakes. Hell, you can't even reasonably sit here endorsing violence against them without raising the same eyebrows they are!

Don't bloody cave to the baser instincts. People need a shining example of what not to be, and they're it. Don't let them drag you down to their level. Once they do, they've spent a much greater degree of their time at that level of idiocy, and I assure you, they'll beat you at it.

People have the right to protest, and yes, any good protest draws out the kooks too. Just ignore it. Remember: life goes in mysterious ways, and God forbid one day you might be on the receiving end of someone else feeling the same way about you that you do them.

Be the better person.

> They can screech and holler all they want, and as long as they only do that, any civilized person will roll their eyes and

B.S.! You will get locked up for threatening violence against someone. It's not mere repugnance. I find all racial supremacists repugnant and will roll my eyes and move on like you said. Except when their belief involves genocide, they explicity wish death and violence to entire groups of people. You are saying let's wait until they start killing! How did that work out for Jews in Poland or hutu's in Rwanda. When they start killing it will be too late. If someone believes mass shooting is good and will further their agenda, they will also get locked up

> An appeal to might makes right?

No, I did not say that. But rights are not optional. I agree with and prefer reasoning. But if does not work,and the only option is violence or beg until they get annoyed and accept your rights, I will not beg. I will do everything including violence to secure my rights. I will beg for things I want and most things I need and will not resort to violence. But rights are for others to respect not for the holder of them to beg and plead for. By definition rights are not optional. Let me give you an example: I have the right to not get killed unless found guilty of a crime, therefore when someone attempts to kill me, I will respond in violence if there is no way to reason with them. Or if death is extreme, how about: I have the right to freely move unless suffering punishment for a crime. Therefore, if a person holds me captive I will take the least violent way to free myself including damaging their property, their body or at worst take their life.

Rights are not things we think we have to have. They are things we agree as a society that the holder of them can excercise them without interference. So when a a group of people are plotting to commit genocide, It is within the bounds of the excercising of a right to life for the targets and implementation if their fellow citizens' and government's responsibility to stop them. Starting with asking nicely, then detaining them as punishment for a reasonable amount of time and if that is not an adequate deterrent or the government is not willing to excercise their duty and citizens are not able to subdue and detain the genocide plotters, violence is the only remaining resort.

If there are peaceful means to end and remove Nazism and genocide proclaiming people from society, let us discuss them. Else, they can stop waving those flags and making threatening speeches or absent government intervention responsible citizens and potential targets of their violence must respond.

> People have the right to protest, and yes, any good protest draws out the kooks too. Just ignore it.

Yes, as i said repeatedly. I have no problem against protesters but against people who wave Nazi and confederate flags. The fact that they joined someone else protest is relevant only because we don't know how many of them there are that hold such views, is it two guys? Then arrest them. Is it a hundred? Then call in the armed forces before we have a mass casuality event or worse! Do you recall what Sydney rioters did or melbourne in good ol australia? How do we know they won't hunt and killl people after a while? That's why my anger is at the government not the Nazis (more like containing and eradicating a disease carrier than anger towards them).

> one day you might be on the receiving end of someone else feeling the same way about you that you do them

If I start waving Nazi flags or calling for genocide in public. Please let me meet my fate as well.

> Be the better person.

You as well. Your fellow citizens are in danger and there are groups organizing and uniting in rebellion to your elected government. Apathy eye-rolling is not the right answer. We have a responsibility to mitigate threats against the rights and well being of our fellow citizens and against our legitimate governments. We must learn from history. When someone says they want to harm others, believe them and respond or make sure your government responds. This isn't a racist uncle who doesn't like blacks, these are Nazis.

You realize Pat King and Chris Sky are not insignificantly involved in organizing the protest (both officially and unofficially)? And have a rather large support base among the participants? I can't speak for Pat King, but Chris Sky has quoted and agreed with Hitler in the past .. so yes, I would say there are Nazis in the protest.

Oh goodness.

I don't support the protests or their aims, but remember that there were a hell of a lot of protesters in CHOP and BLM in general carrying and displaying Marxist and Soviet iconongraphy. Making the whole BLM movement answer for the 80 million dead Chinese peasants and Kulaks would be pretty stupid. Do you really expect BLM to be policing their ranks like that? If you cut them a break for a few ignorant fools in their protests, why is this any different?

Don't be crazy. This whole situation is bad enough what with the break-down in law and order without hysterically shouting about Nazism.

I don't care about BLM and they were tear gassed, beatup, even reporters got dismembered! This response is a whataboutism. Soviets were allies of the US against Nazis, they didn't kill millions of americans nor did they wish genocide on anyone. They do not stand as a symbol if rebellion against legitimate government either. Neither does BLM but that's the thing with whataboutist reponse, you are trying to get me to defend a 3rd party that isn't relevant to the conversation at hand.

If a BLM protester waves a Nazi flag or whatever the opposite is that wishes death to some group of people, treat them the same and punish them or legalize violent response against them. Why do I have to stand silent and watch while others plot and promote genocide?

> I don't care about BLM and they were tear gassed, beatup, even reporters got dismembered!

Which reporters are you talking about? The only reporter I know of who ever got dismembered was Jamal Khashoggi, and he had nothing whatsoever to do with BLM.

Hope this helps: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=reporter+blm+protest+lost+eye

I meant lost eye (eye is a member).

To be fair, "dismember" is more specific than the loss of a body part. It specifically means to cut, tear, or otherwise remove a part of the body.

> Soviets were allies of the US against Nazis, they didn't kill millions of americans nor did they wish genocide on anyone. They do not stand as a symbol if rebellion against legitimate government either.

Are we talking about the people who fought a revolutionary war against the monarchy of the Russian Empire, eventually murdering the Tsar's family, wife and kids included? Then proceeded to stoke violent class warfare and political purges throughout Soviet territory, including the Holodomor in Ukraine. All the while funding communist revolt in other countries across the Far East and Europe. Those guys right?

Genocide aside, the Nazi takeover of Wiemar Germany was almost completely on the level comparatively. But both regimes racked up massive body counts, and both did so with intention.

> Oh goodness.

> … BLM …

Ah yes, the whatabout

Big demonstrations attract all the... Let's call them "different thinking people" around them. Even if demonstrations were done in closed spaces with proper access control some of them would enter anyway.

Communists, Nazis, Confederates, "professional" looters, anarchists, weird conspiracies like the birds are drones, the earth/Finland/New Zealand don't exist, the list could go on for hours... Grab a photo at the correct time and bang, you have successfully "destroyed" or defaced a movement.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com