Car companies will charge you monthly fees for add-on features like heated seats | Hacker News Reader

Car companies will charge you monthly fees for add-on features like heated seats

businessinsider.com

30 pointstype045 comments

If someone wants to "disrupt" the automotive industry, forget about electric or self driving, build a decent car with no computer in it and no data connection, that is easily maintained on the owners terms. That's all I want.

One more point: when you look at the pricing on most car company websites now, everything defaults to $/week or similar anyway (usually financing over 8 years). Deliberately or not, that is already setting the tone for how people think about buying cars, in terms of their periodic money outlay instead of total cost.

Most people already focus on the weekly/monthly payment. That has been the focus of auto advertising for my entire life.

It’s not a cost is it’s an agency issue. The device should work for the buyer not the seller.

But after I pay off a loan on a traditional car, I own the car outright and can use all its features for the lifetime of the vehicle. I can also sell the car to someone with all its features intact.

That probably puts you in the minority these days. The typical buyer is willing to pay $500/month in perpetuity to lease a BMW rather than pay $500 to finance a Honda even if it means they'll own the Honda outright in X years.

I don't not-sympathize with them. It's not like when you bought a model year 2000 car. Ten years later it didn't end up being significantly worse than a 2010 car. Nowadays if you buy a 2022 car, you're probably going to end up having a Flintstonesmobile in 2032.

Due to the way they're calculated, the lease payments can often be determined in an opaque way that is not apparent to the customer in terms of a car's MSRP. Thus you can end up with a $50,000 BMW whose monthly lease payment comes out to be cheaper than the monthly payment leasing a $35,000 Honda.

Yeah, and don't hide some of the relays up under the dash where you can't even see them (thanks Chevy S-10, which is otherwise simple and decent; the relays seemed fine anyway)

OTA connected with low marginal cost features monetized is the disruption. Car companies don't want to go back to the absurdly low gross margins of past decades after Tesla demonstrated how lucrative this business model can be.

Welcome to the future, now contribute to those ARR stats.

> build a decent car with no computer in it and no data connection

No idea where you are but the problem is, connected features are slowly dictated by law - vide SOS call and self driving/lane assist/AEB are also required in all new cars. The fight isn’t with vehicle manufacturers, the fight is with legislators.

Cynically I'd say the manufacturers have bought that legislation to create bigger barriers to entry and cement their position. I definitely agree that disruption requires a battle on many fronts to remove incumbents. While not the same, uber, airbnb, and even tesla have managed to change or circumvent laws that protect incumbent interests, so it is possible.

This is known as regulatory capture, and yes that’s exactly what has happened in every major industry. Established players help write legislation that favors them and raises the barrier to entry for the entire market.

Disrupters like those you mention find loopholes in the laws and exploit them long enough to litigate their case. In parallel they lobby for laws to make their businesses fully legal. If they fail on either front, they usually have run their gray market operation long enough to have spent all of their investors’ money.

This is why it’s important to support candidates that truly support lowering regulations. A candidate that’s actually serious about this will be eviscerated though.

So many voters exhibit the desire to be hassled by their government under the pretense that their government is going to hassle someone else.

> forget about electric

> easily maintained

electric should be easier to maintain

It's illegal to sell new cars people like you and I want to buy, unfortunately.

> If someone wants to "disrupt" the automotive industry, forget about electric or self driving, build a decent car with no computer in it and no data connection, that is easily maintained on the owners terms. That's all I want.

I think that ship has sailed. Data is profitable and shiny tech features like remote start apps sell. I'm sure with the move to eSIM manufacturers will probably moved the connectivity to the main computer instead of a separate module like some of the models from last decade.

But bicycles are unconnected, unlicensed and for the most part easily repairable. Some ebikes have connectivity with companion appa but it's easily avoided.

Bikes are also exposed to the elements and easily stolen. Yes someone will chime in saying they are perfectly fine cycling in freezing winter or muggy summer weather, but that’s not going to do any favors in convincing most people to embrace cycling as their primary means of transportation.

>build a decent car with no computer in it and no data connection, that is easily maintained on the owners terms. That's all I want.

well except for the last part that is what a good public transportation system looks like. Haven't had a car since my 2nd year in uni. No car no problems. Same goes for every other weird contemporary gadget that someone wants you to subscribe you too. Peloton is replaced by a good cycling track and a jog in the park.

Not even the best public transportation lets you travel fully on your terms. You are still dictated by it’s schedule and route, and the presence of other people who may or may not be nice traveling companions. You have to wait in the rain, snow, or heat (less bad if transit sticks to schedule, but US transit often does so poorly).

That said, I could happily embrace living without a car and using just transit in a city like Tokyo or Seoul. But I don’t feel the same doing so in any city (or metro region) in the US - not even NYC which supposedly has the “best” public transit in the country, but still leaves a lot to be desired.

My dream car would be an electric sports car which other than the electric drivetrain, has a feature set circa the early 2000s. The only “modern” features I’d want is a dumb LCD screen to connect CarPlay to. Or better yet, a simple slot to prop up an iPad.

100% agree.

> they can hope to maintain a longer-term relationship with the customer and build brand loyalty

Maybe this is because of how payment is structured (up-front vs recurring fees), but I feel significantly more brand loyalty when I shell out a fixed fee than a subscription. A subscription feels like it can just be switched out with another provider of a similar service, whereas a fixed single fee has more buy-in and gits the sunk-cost fallacy.

Renting too - I've got like three different apps for renting e-bikes in my city right now. Since they all cost basically the same, the only real metric I have is how close a bike is to my current location, and where parking zones are. There's no loyalty there at all, the brands may as well be background noise. But my Brompton folding bike, that's a thing of beauty I'm not gonna give up any time soon.

Interesting thought. I also love most of the devices I've shelled out "big bucks" for -- similarly, I'd never even think of subscribing to bike or scooter rentals in my city because I like riding my own bike so much. This is a great "gotcha" to consider with subscription models.

Even if you're happy with a certain provider, they're pretty likely to disappear or change stuff drastically anyway.

When you own it you keep something even if the worst happens, and so there are still people loyal to Saab, VB6, the Sega Dreamcast, or whatever. But being loyal to Google Stadia is more risky.

I won't buy a car brand if they add monthly fees, but how do I convey this to the manufacturer? The Toyota car start fee is enough to make me not buy a Toyota anymore but it's not like they know or care.

I have these mosquitos, 6 of them. Every month they suck some blood and go to head office and lay some (golden eggs).....GRRR The car with an OS can block you from adding third party items, such as remote starters that at one time you bought once and could buy from others as well. How about variable windshield wiper subscriptions for those who are not happy with the basic single speed? Tesla showed the way on this, it is a little normalised already IMHO. I wonder if a move to more basic cars will emerge as version@five wants?.

With a Tesla, you don't own your car, you license it.

You own the car, as in you physical have title to a hunk of plastic and metal. It's their whim if it will continue to function as an automobile on a day to day basis.

This is a bit hyperbolic, isn’t it?

Yes, but only by a very tiny bit. You only have spend a short time on Google to find the stories of Tesla deactivating vehicles remotely, and then refusing to reactivate them without paying an extortion fee.

Try getting your Tesla repaired anywhere but Tesla. People have been up in arms about right to repair laws for their Apple products. Right to repair and the right to modify your own products and not void the warranty or a matter of settled law. People don't seem to be paying attention to this around Tesla for whatever reason. The Magnuson Moss warranty act was specifically around cars.

So yes indeed when you own a Tesla your ability to use it as an automobile is subject to their whims at least in their current mode of operation that's how it is.

We will own nothing and have no property rights withing 10 years and be a glorified serfs, the way things are headed. How is that for hyperbolic?

I wonder what happens when someone overrides the system to make the heaters and subscription items work without paying?

Remote ignition lockout as a response to breach of contract, civil suit for damages and possibly criminal charges for theft of services depending on how cozy the local DAs are with business interests.

Next step. Arrested for brand disloyalty

You should read Jennifer Government, if you haven't already. :D

Can't wait to have all these features already included in the car and someone finds a way to bypass the DRMs.

Good. Anything that makes cars more expensive is good for the environment and society.

Cool! I don't use heated seats from April to November anyway.

Get a 12v heating blanket and plug it into the cigarette lighter port - or are they no longer provided either.

I think most cars still have the plug, but I don't remember the last time I saw an actual cigarette lighter

They now cost 10 cents per Amp of power drawn :p

I look forward to installing a custom jailbroken ROM on my future car...

Finally, "You wouldn't download a car" becomes reality.

Cisco has been doing this for decades. Oh, you want to use that Ethernet interface … pay a license.

I won't buy their cars then. It's that simple.

I cannot wait for the pay-as-you-go model to die

*If you let them

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