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Comment by throwawaysea | Hacker News Reader

The thing is BLM protesters broke laws. They started fires, destroyed businesses, trapped drivers in tunnels, attacked police, set fires in people’s homes, and declared an autonomous zone that claimed to secede from the country - and this is just from my city. GoFundMe happily allowed them to be funded while Facebook and Twitter happily allowed them to organize. Driving trucks and using the roads as they are meant to be used does not seem anywhere nearly as egregious (I know some did more than this). It also seems appropriate given that bodily autonomy is the most fundamental civil liberty. If you don’t have control over your body, what do you have in terms of liberty and why does rule of law matter?

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But they didn't tho. The people that did that were criminals taking advantage of the situation and lack of police. BLM protestors where nonviolent except when police tried to push them back and silence them. Sure they took over areas, but that's what happens during social movements. The damage was greatly exaggerated unrealistically by right wing news media.

So the same as this protest? The violence is by criminals taking advantage of the situation. They are nonviolent except when the police try and push them back.

I’m going to guess you don’t think that because you don’t like the goals behind this protest?

When I watched the live streams on twitch, I remember one video where the police were just standing there doing nothing, the protesters were yelling abuse. The police just stood there. It wasn’t until the protesters started throwing bottles and setting a car on fire that the police got involved.

There were videos live streamed by people in the groups who were smashing the windows of the power company, going inside and destroying everything.

I don’t believe anything was greatly exaggerated or unrealistic when this was live streamed by people doing it.

Most of the protests were peaceful. But there was a lot of damage and a lot of violence not started by the police.

(I’m not American and don’t live in America, but I watched too many hours of the live streams while it happened)

Edit: twitch had streams of people streaming multiple streams. So 1 twitch stream was showing about 15 live streams happening at the time.

The vaccine isn’t being forced on anyone. Body autonomy is no more being violated here than any other time in history where vaccines have been required to do certain things, of which there are many examples.

Not to mention, all the things you listed at the start of your comment have been done by the Ottawa occupiers. I don’t like to call them truckers because most are not, and most truckers are against this occupation.

No vaccine = no work = no food = die

I'd call that "force" even if it's 2 degrees removed.

You do know that the vast majority of jobs in Canada do not require being vaccinated, right?

Did you know that vaccine requirements for certain jobs have existed for decades, and no one has lost their minds like this?

Do you think it’s possible that right wing politicians are purposely trying to cause outrage over something that has been a normal and accepted practise in order to further their political goals?

When was there a requirement in our history to be vaccinated to shop for your groceries?

There isn't one now.

It's called a career because you do it your whole life and you keep getting paid more money to do it. What are other job options for truckers? Fast food? Warehouse? It's not like you can just go get a SWE job.

Yes, but you agree to that mandate before getting the job. When you join the Army you know you're selling your body to the state.

Of course politicians are politicizing. But they're just riding the wave of something that people are already mad about--like higher taxes and abortion. Your comment makes it sound like people are mindless automatons whose opinions have no substance. They are opinions that differ from your own but that's OK. We need both sides of the discussion for a healthy democracy.

> It's called a career because you do it your whole life and you keep getting paid more money to do it.

People get fired all the time for a multitude of reasons. In fact, thanks to at will employment in the US, people get fired for no reason at all. I haven't seen mass protests about at will employment.

> What are other job options for truckers?

I would assume the same jobs available to anyone when they get fired.

> We need both sides of the discussion for a healthy democracy.

Agreed, but there is a problem when one side is not arguing in good faith. I would call occupying the nation's capital and assaulting people wearing masks not arguing in good faith.

>"You do know that the vast majority of jobs in Canada do not require being vaccinated, right?"

Well suddenly vast majority now does require COVID vaccination. It is forced even on people that never show up in the office. So if I were you I'd come up with some better arguments to advance the agenda.

> Well suddenly vast majority now does require COVID vaccination.

Except that's not true.

You're repeating this and providing zero information to back it up.

We started with almost no jobs needing proof of vaccination to a lot needing it. Each week more and more require it, you talk like this is a minor thing that will not escalate, when it clearly has been.

The options you seem to think unvaccinated Canadians have are slim and moving towards non, That is why people are protesting.

"no work = no food" sounds like the more productive link in the chain to break.

Good thing work that doesn't require vaccination is plentiful. Demand for labour is high everywhere.

Take it or get fired. That is being forced for all intents and purposes.

Shaq said it well: https://twitter.com/ginacarano/status/1489421001918083073

Really? They've attacked police and burned people's homes? Seceded? I've not been following the news much, but I haven't seen this.

They have attacked police. They have had dance parties on war memorials. They threw human shit at a home with a pride flag in the window. They assaulted people for wearing masks. Healthcare workers are now told to remove any indications that they work at a hospital for their own safety.

In other words, it's nothing alike.

You're right. It's worse. BLM was because black people were being unjustly murdered. This occupation is because grown men are scared of a safe and effective vaccine during a worldwide pandemic.

Would you please stop taking the thread further into flamewar? I understand that you're justifiably upset about it, but you've posted 29 (edit: now 35) comments in this thread alone, many of them repetitive, and at this point you're falling into swipes. That doesn't help persuade anyone and it certainly isn't the curious conversation we're hoping for here.

By the time we get to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30226076, followed by https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30226101, followed by https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30226189, the intended spirit of this site has been completely lost.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30226201

Edit: Since this request didn't work, I've rate limited your account. Lest that seem to be out of bias, I've also rate limited the other commenters who have been feeding the repetitive flamewar side of this thread. I also banned at least one of the worst offenders. If you don't want to be rate limited, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the site guidelines in the future.

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, and certainly not flamewar tangents into deeper circles of hell.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Yeah, that was a dumb comment. Sorry.

> Healthcare workers are now told to remove any indications that they work at a hospital for their own safety.

This seems like a really weird narrative. Why would people who are protesting vaccine mandates be against healthcare workers? They aren't the ones keeping the mandate in place. There's a tenuous connection with them being the ones to administer a vaccine if someone decides to get vaccinated but it's not like attacking a healthcare worker is going to accomplish anything. A lot of the people engaging in this protest have already been vaccinated, what's their beef with healthcare? Honestly, this just seems like spin that's aimed at creating two opposing groups.

From what I've seen it's just spin. They (the CBC et al) have taken the worst examples, real, imagined, or completely out of context, and acted like this is what the protest is all about.

The war memorial is a good example. This is something that's at the site of the protest because it's in downtown ottawa. Pretending it's being "disrespected" is some nonsense you could level at any group protesting downtown. In this case its particularly silly because the demographic that is protesting is overall very supportive or Canada's military, and is literally there protesting for freedom.

Yeah, I think post Trump 2016, CBC took a very activist-oriented approach which hemorrhaged their cultural trust. They got pushback and then dug in further. There’s no self reflection at all.

I haven’t seen any evidence of the Canadian truckers doing anything egregious or blatantly illega.

However here are example sources I just found from a few Google searches for what I saw from BLM protests in my city (the grandparent comment):

https://clashdaily.com/2020/11/seattle-blm-activist-arrested...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protes...

https://komonews.com/news/local/police-spokesperson-accuses-...

https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/2021/06/17/five-years-m...

https://www.the-sun.com/news/910187/security-guard-seattle-p...

https://nypost.com/2020/08/14/seattle-blm-protesters-demand-...

https://www.reddit.com/r/SeattleWA/comments/ix9bwy/black_liv...

I know all about that. I was questioning the claim that this protest has done all the same things.

Sorry I thought your comment was in response to my earlier GP comment. I edited it to clarify. And yes I haven’t seen any of the same things with the Canada protests.

It is being forced. If you can experience significant losses or risks unless you comply, that’s being forced. You’re being disingenuous. It’s easy to see where this breaks down - per your logic a mobster running a protection racket isn’t forcing anyone to pay extortion money either.

It's not forced. There any many jobs that don't require a vaccine. It's a choice.

A protection racket is enforced through the use of physical violence. Terrible analogy.

And this is forced through other means that aren’t physical - but it is still forced. I am also not sure why the choice to get other jobs changes or justifies anything here. For example consider this: “There are other jobs so quit complaining when we racially discriminate against you.”

> And this is forced through other means that aren’t physical - but it is still forced.

No, it is not forced. It is a choice.

> For example consider this: “There are other jobs so quit complaining when we racially discriminate against you.”

Race is a protected class. Vaccination status is not unless you have a document medical reason.

Except it is, check the Nuremberg tribunal case.

Can you point me to the part of the Canadian Human Rights Act that defines vaccination status as a protected class?

By definition, this is forced. Force means to make someone do something against their will. In this case the choice is be fired or take the vaccine. They obviously don't want to be fired, so they are being forced to take the vaccine. Yes, it isn't physical force, but it is forced none the less.

> By definition, this is forced. Force means to make someone do something against their will.

Yes, but they aren't required to get the vaccine against their will. They have the choice to quit. That's what makes it a choice. If they had no choice to quit, then you would be correct.

> In this case the choice is be fired or take the vaccine.

Exactly.

> They obviously don't want to be fired, so they are being forced to take the vaccine.

Some choices are hard. That's life. As you wrote in the previous sentence, it is a choice.

> Yes, it isn't physical force, but it is forced none the less

No more forced than any other condition of employment.

"You will give me what I want, or you will choose to relinquish your livelihood" does not sound like a choice, but an ultimatum.

Heads: I win, Tails: you lose is not good faith in the slightest, or even a reasonable facsimile of a choice.

Speaking of good faith arguments; as you know they can still be truckers. Just not international truckers.

There are tons of domestic trucking jobs.

And they can’t be international truckers anyways because the US won’t let them in without a vaccine.

I'm your boss, either have sex with me or be fired.

You aren't forced, there are a lot of other jobs that don't require you to have sex with the boss.

You ok with this? Don't have an abortion or you will be fired. Don't have a kid or you will be fired. It is always a choice right?

In Canada, all of what you just described is illegal.

That is the point. 'Have a vaccine or be fired' is the same.

Sure, it isn't 'forced' as in, we will tie you up and someone will give you the vaccine, (same as have sex with me or be fired, technically I won't force myself on you) but basically amounts to the same. And taking in account that a) there are vaccine side effects (I had them and know a few others that also did) b) they don't really help with the spread, just reducing the symptoms, it shouldn't be the business deciding on it.

Please omit personal swipes from your comments here. This flamewar is bad enough already.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

My mistake. You’re right I could’ve made that comment without the personal swipe.

Accepting your premise that it's being forced on us, how is this different from the many other laws we are "forced" to obey as a part of Canadian society?

Consent of the governed, quite obviously.

Majority consent[0], which is what we have in the case of the vaccine.

[0] except for protected classes, there are specific carve outs for that.

Please show us sources of businesses being burned, looted, people assaulted and vehicles destroyed by Canadian truckers.

Do you have evidence of destruction caused by the protesters? I am interested in seeing it. All video I have seen is completely peaceful.

People supporting BLM have a real issue to defend, and 400 years of precedence.

It's not the same; it's not even close.

No bad methods, only bad targets/ideologies?

I'm afraid that's not what happened in reality in Seattle. You repeated the allegations multiple times but repeating them doesn't make it true. There were criminals who came to that area, but the BLM themselves did not seem interested in that stuff. And I was upset at the leaving of the area by the police, but the multiple admitted fake pics on fox news didn't show reality.

And now we know from the emails and discussions of the police and the mayor that they kind of left the police precinct with an expectation of the chaz that the precinct was going to be burned down after thet left by the crowd and they were almost disappointed . In Seattle we're currently in this weird situation where the police are basically in an almost complete work stoppage, and there's endless court battles about the cops who went to Jan 6, cops don't enforce Laws around property crimes. I don't see any future for the existing police force in Seattle. They just need to be fired and replaced en mass. But it will take years to eject them.

This is probably too much about Seattle but when trying to understand what's happening in Canada one has to be careful of the American press that lies about what's happening. My own dad believes that Seattle is burning basically.

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