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Comment by jonathan-adly | Hacker News Reader

I think this very short-sighted. People don't want to run their own banks now because the UX behind Crypto sucks. But the space is moving like a rocket and who knows what the future holds.

Anecdote: I am a fairly technical person but stayed away from the whole self-custody stuff because no way anyone in my family can figure it out and if something happens to me, its all gone.

Two days ago, my wife (non-tech as you can get) got a muun wallet and was very happy about the experience. She got the point of being able to send money to her relatives in the middle east without the normal shadiness that goes on over there.

(getting USD or any hard currency in and out of some middle eastern countries is a nightmare)

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> got a muun wallet and was very happy about the experience.

Developed by a centralised developer that you trust not to screw up your money transfers.

> But the space is moving like a rocket and who knows what the future holds.

We know. All the crypto bros will slowly and inefficiently learn why regulations and centralisation exist

It's a self-custody wallet. Money moves over the Bitcoin network or the lighting network. Developer has no control. (literally, can't be evil vs. won't be evil is the whole point). Are you sure you know how Bitcoin and self-custody wallets work?

> Developer has no control.

Developer literally created the software you use.

Ok. Let me explain to you how Bitcoin works. Satoshi created the software and nodes maintain it. Anyone can maintain a node and enforce the rules of the network. A ledger lives on the network says who has what.

To interact with the ledger on an easy non-technical way, you can:

1. Use a centralized exchange (coinbase) 2. Use a self-custody cold-storage wallet (ledger) 3. Use a self-custody hot wallet (muun) 4. Use a custodial wallet

For #2, and #3. You have your own private keys. The developer of the wallet can’t do anything to your money. Even if they shut off the servers(#2 doesn’t have servers), the ledger on the network still says you have x amounts of Bitcoins. You can access the ledger and interact with the network in another way.

Literally can’t be evil!

Respectfully, you need to do more research on this.

Look up how ETC (Ethereum Classic) came into being.

Look up a 51% attack.

Look up forks from BTC to BCH and then BSV.

Look up Craig Wright and his claims to be Satoshi Nakamoto.

Again, respectfully, your many comments here make you appear to be someone that just learned about cryptocurrency in the last six months and you have only the simplest of surface understandings of it.

You’re INcorrecting several people that have been at the forefront of cryptocurrency for over a decade.

From my perspective, it sounds like you are the one who have no clue what you are talking about.

Eth classic is exactly why there is Bitcoin and everything else.

Forks are exactly why Bitcoin will always protects it’s userbase from big miner money.

Craig white claims is exactly why no one person can control the network.

You haven’t been at the forefront of anything my man. Bitcoin has returned 1000% and you are sitting here fighting over the internet.

Respectfully, you have a new account on HN and if it lasts another month before dang shadowbans you I’ll be shocked.

You’ll know it happens when people just stop responding to you.

I have showdead turned on and I shake my head as people post comments for years never knowing that 99.99% of people don’t see their posts and comments.

As for my cryptocurrency background I mined BTC with a GPU when it was very profitable. My ETH mining rigs are doing their job while I’m posting on the Internet as you say. I have no problem profiting from it while recognizing it’s a total and complete scam.

I love how you respond with factual statements with "your account is new and dang will ban you". That's not how it works, but go on.

Reading Muun's post on "security": their wallet holds one key on your device and the other key on their servers.

So at all times they have access to both of your keys that are used to sign transactions:

https://blog.muun.com/muuns-multisig-model/

--- start quote ---

Muun ensures your decrypted private keys are never stored in the same place:

- Your phone stores only the first key

- Muun's servers store only the second key

--- end quote ---

Oh, there's also the Emergency Kit that--I pinky swear--is encrypted in a way that Muun knows nothing about both keys in it.

Moreover, if you go ahead and install Muun, there's literally nothing about secret keys in the app: you can immediately send and receive bitcoin. Which really tells you all you need to know about its security.

If the key is on my device, they don’t have access to it. Seriously, this post screams Dunning-Kruger.

Wait until your non-tech wife accidentally sends ETH to a BTC address. Or her hard drive dies. Or a million other things that can happen.

And the one “legitimate” use case you list is to use cryptocurrency to bypass US controls on money transfers to monitored countries.

How long do you think that hole will remain open?

I think you are being disingenuous and emotional about it. Previously, the UX was terrible and didn't protect non-technical users at all, so these scenarios could happen.

Newer tech with better UX does a wonderful job protecting users and is improving at rocket speed. The example I used protects the user from all these scenarios you mentioned.

Also, the US doesn't care about moving USD in and out of most countries (Iran, NK excluded). It's these countries themselves that want that level of control.

The example I used protects the user from all these scenarios you mentioned.

How does it protect against hardware failure? How does it protect against sending Coin X to a wallet meant for Coin Y?

Also, the US doesn't care about moving USD in and out of most countries

That's funny. And even if what you said were true, other countries will eventually control what appears to not be controllable today.

Your Bitcoin lives on the ledger. You can recover your wallet with your private keys under most circumstances (unless the Bitcoin network itself dies). Hardware failure is not relevant.

As far as the addresses goes, it’s the same thing as sending a wire transfer to the wrong account in a different country. You won’t get it back.

How many people make international wire transfers? It's an extremely rare and risky kind of transaction, which is why banks have built up their own opsec around it.

If cryptocurrency enthusiasts had their way, though, the high-risk transaction the GP called out would be required to buy a gallon of milk.

My man, not even the wildest Bitcoin maxi is calling for a world where you are required to buy milk with bitcoin lol. People just want their savings accounts to match inflation. (and the option to spend from that savings account for some transactions).

Give them that and Bitcoin will go back to being a niche investment vehicle where 99% of the people don't care about it.

Hardware failure is extremely relevant if that hardware is the drive you store your private key on,at which point the wallet is gone forever. One could say "don't do that, have elaborate backup strategies" but that brings us back to UX. Even professionals who should know better tend to be awful at this.

I have no problems with this. Like I said in the original comment, people not wanting to run their bank is a solvable UX problem. Fundamentally, I don't see why it has to stay this way.

We're at a point where you can have your coins on a hardware wallet, and have a simple route into an proper exchange with the possibility to pay fiat to your bank account. Documenting this and updating it yearly is not that much extra work if you really believe in it. Every year, practice the process with your wife/sibling/whoever and 10$ so they are accustomed to it.

It's work, but you are running your own bank.

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