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Comment by YPPH | Hacker News Reader

In Australia I've found the European style far more common, contrary what is suggested in the article.

While we're on the topic of trucks, I've always had this pointless desire to get a non-synchronous transmission truck driver's licence. I just think it'd be fun learning to drive an 18 speed crash box with double clutching and clutch brakes - something I imagine will soon be a thing of the past. Regrettably, there's no real reason for me to get it.

For now, the rational part of my brain is keeping this in check.

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> I just think it'd be fun learning to drive an 18 speed crash box with double clutching and clutch brakes. However, there's absolutely no reason for me to get it.

I guarantee you would quickly abandon this double clutching "fun" at real trucking job because it is very tiring when you need to change gears a lot for example when there are a lot of intersections and turns. AFAIK most/all drivers in USA don't use clutch at all (for anything other than starting and stopping the vehicle) in non-synchronized transmission trucks for that very reason. Switching gears without clutch is easier and faster when you learn how to do it smoothly.

That being said... I strongly suggest you to try either American or Euro Truck simulator games. If you have a steering wheel and gearbox controllers for your computer, you can indeed have a lot of fun and gain some gear shifting and big truck driving skills at much lower cost than in real life while still having kind of real feeling.

I used to do that in my old beetle that had a clutch that was quite weak. I only used the clutch in 1st gear, the rest of the upshifts by ear. There was enough slop in the gears that you could do that all day long and never miss.

Were they timed to make it reasonable to go directly from n to n+1 or did you have to shift to neutral, wait, then upshift?

I have a not-so-old Audi with a known-bad gearbox w/ faulty synchros and because it is a turbo you really can’t upshift in that band when/where the gears are lined up without losing too much power so I have learned to time how long I should wait in neutral (for the RPMs to drop) before completing the upshift. Non-sequential downshifting after slowing down from a higher gear is much harder though - you really have to play it by ear based off the sound/RPMs and the current speed both. And it’s a six speed with considerably less slop than the old Beetles used to have.

The trick is to match the rpms as the engine drops naturally you just slot it in gear at the right moment. If you do it often enough at some point you don't even notice anymore until you try to drive another vehicle, at which point hilarity will ensue.

Those old beetles were just four speeds, pretty beefy gears. I never managed a good downshift though, I would cheat and very briefly depress the clutch so it wouldn't slip. Do it too long and you'd get that horribly expensive smell. I was dirt poor and got the car for free so I really couldn't complain. Baby blue. And it taught me to be very careful on wet surfaces with a rear mounted engine (took out a bicycle stand with it in front of one of the busiest coffee places in Amsterdam West, "Tramlijn Begeerte" (dutch translation of a 'streetcar called desire'). Funny little car.

For the downshifting, you can speed things up if you spin up the input shaft by putting the gear selector in neutral with the clutch engaged (foot off it) and rev the engine to increase the speed of the input shaft, then clutch back in, and select the lower gear (now with the input shaft going faster [as is needed], the synchros have much less work to do to engage the lower gear).

I had an old Alfa Romeo that was fantastic overall but had a pretty terrible transmission, especially when cold. You do learn quickly how to get by. :)

I do that regularly in all stick shift vehicles (rev matching). It's a lot more challenging without a synchro at all, though!

This works for upshifting too, it's known as double clutching.

If you have a turbo diesel it's a good skill to learn as you can shift smoothly while still keeping the turbo spooled up and not cause as much wear on the gearbox.

The whole article seems full of conjecture and generalisation.

A big example:

> Another advantage of a conventional cab design is that the truck can be more economical. Surely they usually pull heavier loads, but if there were two trucks, one a cab-over and another one a conventional cab design, and they had the same powertrain and the same cargo, the conventional cab truck would most likely use less fuel. Of course, that is just in theory – in reality there are too many factors to consider.

I don't know... power, load and fuel economy is the kind of data that's extremely available about motor vehicles... this is something we can't figure out? Or were they just writing hearsay to push content and get clicks? ("Subscribe to our facebook. Loads of content coming soon!")

> Or were they just writing hearsay to push content and get clicks?

I think this is a very uncharitable interpretation. It has been decades in the US and Canada since cab overs fell out of style and thus you can't buy ones that take the same trade-offs as your average conventional truck. Comparing trucks designed for completely different regulatory, geographical, and practical constraints isn't going to net something useful so we have to make estimated guesses. It seems like it would be similar to comparing the fuel economy of an an unladen F-150 with an unladen F-350; They might do similar things but in practice there are so many capability trade-offs that it isn't a particularly interesting thing to do. As they said:

> that is just in theory – in reality there are too many factors to consider.

The most aerodynamic COE have higher drag coefficients than the most aerodynamic conventionals, the big flat front produces a large high pressure area.

Lots of conjecture. The reality is most of the drag is encountered on the trailer, tires and underside. This is the reason you now see "skirts" on almost all trailers, and the general reduction in distance between tractor and trailer and not long airplane-like tractors.

More important to fuel economy is maximizing cargo per trip, as having 20% more cargo in the trailer has no impact on aerodynamics and minimal contribution to rolling resistance and acceleration losses. This is the main argument against the length restrictions in the EU. Longer trailers + more aerodynamic tractors would lead to a significant increase in fuel economy - albeit at the cost of road safety: EU records nearly identical deaths per year for trucking related accidents as the US - around 5000 - but has 300% as many trucks on the road and 50% more population than the US.

In Australia, I think the default style has changed over time. Back in the 1980s, Mack and Kenworth were the dominant brands. Now there's more of a mix, with the likes of Volvo and Scania doing well, but Mack and Kenworth are still in the top 10.[1]

[1] https://www.trucksales.com.au/editorial/details/2020-truck-s...

I see. It could be a metropolitan/regional divide too. Most the trucks I see are metropolitan traversing from the port to inner city destinations.

I imagine the composition is different on, say, the Nullarbor plain.

That's an interesting point about the metro/regional divide. It could be that livestock haulage is more invested in the "conventional" style. I was quite familiar with one local haulage company growing up, and checking their website it seems like their entire fleet is still "conventional"![1]

[1] https://www.martinshaulage.com.au/

Volvos are popular in the US and have a conventional cab design.

A friend of mine did just that when he moved to Australia and changed job. He has a masters degree, but started working as a untrained manual labor hand. Got the company to pay for his truck licence, (because they needed drivers) and fulfilled is childhood dream. Was driving trucks and helping out on the factory floor for a couple of years, then became the transportation manager and is now the general manager at a different company. Quite an interesting career path.

You can get a Truck Simulator game, and purchase gaming equipment for it. You can have a real life steering wheel, shifter, and pedals.

Image of such a setup: https://imgur.com/xUdS3wD taken from the trucksim subreddit.

> I've always had this pointless desire to get a non-synchronous transmission truck driver's licence. I just think it'd be fun learning to drive an 18 speed crash box with double clutching and clutch brakes. However, there's absolutely no reason for me to get it.

> For now, the rational part of my brain is keeping this in check.

You're not alone! I have the exact same desire.

I have a lot of friends that are recreationally pilots or boat captains so I don't think it's that strange.

> I've always had this pointless desire to get a non-synchronous transmission truck driver's licence. I just think it'd be fun learning to drive an 18 speed crash box with double clutching and clutch brakes - something I imagine will soon be a thing of the past. Regrettably, there's no real reason for me to get it.

Look out. I know a guy who caved in and learned. Then decided he doesn't like computers all that much and he doesn't _really_ need that software engineer salary, especially if he can cut on rent by sleeping in his truck.

Are you aware of the Truck Simulator series of games?

I have heard of it but haven't really looked into it.

There's something appealing in the physical labour of feeling and manipulating the clutch and gearbox, that a simulator might not capture, but I will it check it out.

Big Mutha Truckers?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mutha_Truckers

Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing. At one point it was the lowest rated game ever on metacritic.

The opponents don't move, there is no clipping of obstacles, and once you cross the finish line you are greeted with a screen proudly saying "You're Winner!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Rigs:_Over_the_Road_Racing

Let's not forget the missing speed cap for the reverse gear. You can accelerate to over 1000 mph and fly off the map.

Obviously, the game developers were unexperienced and couldn't deliver a functioning product. What's amazing is that the company had the audacity to sell it in stores nevertheless.

It sort of depends where you are - I think most of the ones people in cities would see are cab over but the moment you head rurally it’s almost exclusively conventional - Kenworth and Western Star are by far and away the biggest brands. Try driving up or down the Newell Highway - conventional would outnumber cab over 10-20:1

Driving a road ranger gearbox is a lot of fun. And a jake brake makes an awesome sound! I agree with the comment below me - you almost never use the clutch, just match revs to gear. It’s a nice skill, you can do it in any manual vehicle but you’re more likely to torch the transmission in the average car - Toyota landcruisers are good practice though

I looked into this. It's very doable and easy. It's funny but the actual thing that annoys me is that if you want to get an A when you already have a C and M1, you then need to do the C and M1 tests again. And to be honest, the M1 written test is pretty hard (like at least 10x harder than the C). I obviously passed it on my first attempt but I definitely know people who decided to just keep their out of state motorcycle license instead.

EDIT in response to reply: I actually don't think it's obvious that if you get C, M1, and A separated by a month that you should do 1+2+3 tests but that if you get C+C separated by years you do 1+0 tests.

Obviously?

What do the letters mean?

License classes. C (at least in my area) authorizes <26001 lb, B more, and A anything legal to put on a highway. I assume M1 is a motorcycle license or endorsement.

Tried driving an old double-clutch truck - the clutch pedal was extremely hard with an absurdly long travel length. No power steering either. Very sore left leg and arms after navigating through a small town.

Hey I was driving those in the Swiss Army, 2dm's they were called and a lot of fun once you got the coordination right, it's over 30 years ago... here in egypt I've seen preteens driving such trucks which brings a thought and suggestion, why not come to less "developed" countries to do such things on your bucket list... though I'm sure even your government doesn't have ubiquitous oversight in your "outback" so probably no need to leave your "island" :-)

I've always had this pointless desire to get a non-synchronous transmission truck driver's licence. I just think it'd be fun learning to drive an 18 speed crash box with double clutching and clutch brakes

I once had a commercial license paid for by a grant program as part of that job. I had to give it up when I moved states and no reason to redo it. I regret it a lot because it was useful in many ways. Probably different in Australia, but having a odd set of skills never hurt my life.

I was going to recommend taking the three-day Skip Barber open wheel class, but looks like they've switched that to the Mygale Formula 4 cars with a sequential gearbox. When I did it, they were Dodge powered with the old straight-cut gears with dog rings.

I suspect you could find a Formula Dodge or Formula Ford racing series with an intro class if you just want to learn the gearbox aspects, plus then you can learn to rotate a car with the steering wheel, the gas, and the brake pedal. ;)

How is that rational? A truck driver's license can't be too expensive, even if you hardly use it. It's probably one of the easier things to have on your bucket list.

Depending on where you live, there might be on-going fees (regular medical, psychological exams, etc, paid by the license holder). This kind of license is assumed to be used for revenue generation, so the fees are not supposed to be a problem.

If they just want to get it once ongoing cost is not a concern.

Those Australian "road trains" that run the outback definitely use more American style cabs, but I guess for obvious reasons.

In college, I drove an ancient car with a failing manual transmission that required double clutching to work. It was not fun.

Sometimes you can take a CDL course for cheap. I did years ago and it was fun.

I wouldn’t get the license though as even minor traffic violations can become a pain in the butt.

Interesting. In Sydney i would say not. But this is based on anecdotal observations and as we know we can be bias.

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