How to eat a tomato (2011) [pdf] | Hacker News Reader

How to eat a tomato (2011) [pdf]

ruhlman.com

57 pointsTomte67 comments

To quote Kenji Lopez Alt - "A BLT is a tomato sandwich, seasoned with bacon." It is a simple concept, but it was the small twist in thinking that helped me shift to eating more vegetables.

https://www.seriouseats.com/blt-manifesto-how-to-make-best-b...

Side note: I made friends with several people mastering in horticulture at the University of Florida, and they were all working towards breeding flavor back into tomatoes, blueberries, strawberries, etc. Decades of research have focused on frost resistance, pest resistance, hardiness, and increased yield, all at the expense of flavor. We are starting to see bespoke flavorful produce at the store, but if the fruits my friends brought home from the experimental fields are any indication, we are ~10 years away from a total shift away from bland produce.

One thing that surprised me was the fact that their research is funded in part by selling the best experimental fruits to Japan to be used as gifts. I'll never forget being at margarita night and learning that I just blended $100 dollars of blueberries. And yes, they were the best blueberries that both the experts and I have ever had.

> they were all working towards breeding flavor back into tomatoes

This surprised me. Every year my FIL plants a little green house full of tomatoes and they taste delicious, much much better than the ones you buy at a store. Much more fleshy and flavorful. All he uses are seeds from the gardening store.

So what are they developing I wonder, tomatoes that develop flavor even in the industrialized high speed growth environment they make them in now?

The seeds from the gardening store are probably not the varieties being grown commercially. The seeds or starters sold at the gardening store are an easy step up from commercial plants, regardless of how you grow them.

If you've ever seen a truck full of tomatoes, you can see why commercial growers grow the tomatoes they do. They need firm rocks that can survive being covered by several feet of other tomatoes. They pick them early and choose varieties that are optimized for disease resistance, firmness, etc.

Thanks. That makes sense. Too bad the property that gets lost completely in the process is flavor.

Commercial growers have definitely diluted the flavor expectation. There really is no comparison between tomatoes sold at mass market and what can be grown at home.

I hope to see AppHarvest succeed at scale.

https://www.appharvest.com/veggies/

Tasteless as some varities are, they earned the nickname "wasserbomben" (i think i got that right) in germany some time ago, meaning "water bombs"

Nice. I read a little about this, that breeding had selected for looks over flavor in the super market. My partner and I have become the people that rave about their farmer's market produce because of this; it really is a night and day difference compared to the grocery store.

At least locally another big change was picking the tomatoes green so they didn't get as damaged during transit. When they ripen up at the supermarket they look good but have hardly any flavour.

I've been buying these Driscoll's 'Limited Edition' sweet blueberries at whole foods and they are to die for. They are humongous and I wonder if they came out of a breeding program like you're talking about.

Your comment about blueberries led me into thinking about blueberries here in Sweden as one of the few edibles not manipulated by humans.

They are of a different kind, smaller and blue inside. But some summers they grow in abundance during a few weeks in summer and you pick them by the bucket. Or let your kids roam freely until their hands and mouths (and clothes) are completely blue.

There are not that many edibles that are so completely uncontrolled by humans. A few other types of berries, some mushrooms, and maybe wild game.

What about lingon? And cloudberries?

Yes, they fall into the category "A few other types of berries". In Sweden those 3 are the most common.

Also wild raspberries would count, I guess, although raspberries are also cultivated. I don't know if that means that also the wild raspberries are tainted by human hand.

I spend most of my time in State College, PA, USA.

Nearby, there’s on public / state land, a place called bear meadows.

There’s tons of blueberries in a swampy area with trails. From talking to people I’ve talked to who go there to pick them, their grandparents and possibly great grandparents would pick blueberries in the same spot.

It’s an interesting and fun experience, and they taste far better then anything I’ve purchased at the grocery store.

This is a view from Bear Meadows PA, i am guessing the shrubbery there could be blueberries. It looks quite similar maybe a bit bigger, but local variations should be expected.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7505544,-77.764775,3a,56y,23...

This is a view from a typical blueberry place in Sweden:

https://www.google.com/maps/@59.9615363,15.2261425,3a,88.2y,...

There are no blueberries in the photo of the view of bear meadows. They are all much lower.

They are around here (40.7316875, -77.7537712)

But not exactly.

Thank you for sharing the photo though! It’s very different.

Fun facts: Although the Tomato is botanically a fruit, not a vegetable, you look for it in the vegetables section not fruits. [1]

In the 19th century, the US Supreme Court classified the Tomato as a vegetable instead of a fruit. :-) [2]

[1] "Is a Tomato a Fruit or a Vegetable?"

https://www.britannica.com/story/is-a-tomato-a-fruit-or-a-ve....

[2] "NIX v. HEDDEN(1893) No. 137 Argued: Decided: May 10, 1893" https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/149/304.html

> In the 19th century, the US Supreme Court classified the Tomato as a vegetable instead of a fruit.

This is still one of SCOTUS's most controversial decisions, going directly against the intent of the Founding Fathers as shown in Federalist Paper No. 17.

Maybe, but it is fully refuted by Jenkin's deep research, and subsequent paper, into the validity of Federalist Papers, their authors, and their quoters.

The practical classification seems better than the botanical classification. The botanical definition would also classify peppers, cucumbers, squash, and many other things we consider to be "vegetables" to actually be "fruit".

I think there is a general mental model that works well for diets where fruits are associated with being sweet and vegetables aren't and that vegetables are thought of to be healthier as a result and don't need as much moderation. Though that admittedly falls apart in some instances -- corn, root vegetables, and avocados all need moderated, though two of those are botanically fruit :)

For real fun, look up botanical “berry” (cucumber, eggplant, grape, pumpkin, tomato, fruits of the potato, banana, melon, but not strawberry, raspberry. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_(botany). Avocado seems to be an edge case that may be a berry or a drupe)

Similar situation with nuts. Most food items classified as "nuts" -- including many with "nut" in the name -- are botanically not nuts, but seeds, drupes, or legumes. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(fruit)#Production

“Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.” - Brian O'Driscoll

Michael Ruhlman, the author of the linked tomato article has written a number of terrific books [0]. 'Ratio: The Simple Codes Behind the Craft of Everyday Cooking' [0], in particular, might appeal to the crowd here. His blog [1] is worth following by foodies.

[0] https://ruhlman.com/ruhlmans-books/

[1] https://ruhlman.com/

I put oranges and apples in my vegetable salad.

I would genuinely love it if, in the same vein, the question "Is a hotdog a sandwich?" made it to the supreme court.

Not from the US but similar: http://www.timcrane.com/jaffa-cakes.html

White City Shopping Center, L.P. v. PR Restaurants only made it to Massachusetts Superiour Court, so precident is limited, but it lets us know that a buritto is not a sandwich.

I would say it depends on whether or not the bun is still connected on one side. I base this on nothing other than the fact that to me it feels correct.

Hero/hoagie/submarine sandwiches aren't sandwiches?

Nope, not unless you cut all the way through. It's not a sandwich unless the filling is between two pieces of bread.

A wide variety of vegetables are botanical fruits. I don't understand why that's interesting, or why people only ever talk about how it applies to tomatoes.

"Although the Tomato is botanically a fruit, not a vegetable"

I do not condone murder. I do not think people should be killed. But man, if one more person says "Tomato is a fruit" - there needs to be consequences. /s

My understanding is that "fruit" is a botanical classification, and "vegetable" is a culinary classification. They're not disjoint.

They never really took off as a hand fruit.

It requires some care but eating a tomato like an apple is quite good. I like eating bell peppers as fruit too

Tomatoes are one of those texturally weird to eat fruits/vegetables where the experience is dominated by the placenta.

Borderline inedible, classifiable as food only insofar as they can be imbibed but certainly toxic in their capacity for repugnance alone. Culinary atrocity.

Vine-ripened cherry/grape tomatoes are like candy, but the small unit size diminishes the whole "what is this sloppy mush I'm eating???" aspect.

Large beefsteak tomatoes however, no thanks!

Beefsteak tomatoes with some buffalo mozzarella and basil and you've got yourself a Caprese.

Tomatoes are a culinary atrocity?

Tomatoes are the fruit of all evil.

Tomatoes have original sin, and I will only eat them after they have been purified by fire (or cooking anyway), or by sitting in the sun for quite some time.

In the few misfortunate events I've come upon, I can relate to you, friend, that the experience can be most likened to having cold spit with curd mincing around in your mouth. Simply revolting. And the taste is no better. It is thus that I come to rate the tomato as an atrocity. And I do so in the hopes that I might illuminate the good folk who may hear my beseeching, to expel them of their ignorance, that they may cease in their rotten wont to consume such a morsel. As Socrates says ignorance is the one evil, so I avail all of this knowledge; and I am compelled to do so for the sake of virtue! Cease the use of this foul morsel, my friends, that none may suffer further from the reviled thing!

Kinda wish mind transfer was a thing so I could experience how fucked up your taste buds must be. I can see what your saying on texture but there is no way tomatoes taste bad given their prevalence in so many countries food.

The tasteless "conventional" varieties found in chain grocers across the USA are basically inedible if you're turned off by the texture, since there's not much more than the texture being experienced.

This applies in varying degrees to practically all the "conventional" fruits and vegetables I encounter. Even if you don't buy into the organic health arguments, it at least tends to have more appropriate flavor and less chemical aftertastes.

I’m referencing tomato flavor in general. Ketchup, tomato based sauces, and tomato paste are default flavors in more than a third of the planets population just based on the us, Italy, India, and France that I know use it in daily cuisine. That doesn’t even cover the continent where tomatoes are native to, or any other culture that may eat the tomato routinely. The poster I replied to is basically stating that they can’t understand why more than 1/3rd of the population at minimum, likes the flavor incomplete error because they personally don’t like the flavor

A simple explanation my friend: the unwashed masses are, with good effort, making an attempt to adopt an affectation of good taste. "This fine vegetable is an acquired taste, say they. But it is evident to anyone who can be imputed with, in the real sense of the word, "fine tastes" that it is precisely an affectation undertaken to give the impression they have some degree of sophistication.

But what you've said, sir, is concerned with a fallacy in any case. Would you so blithely recommend Nickelback on the presumption that because it is popular it is good, and it is good because it is popular? I suspect so, but a man of sophistication, refinement, and class such as myself can in no wise commit to espousing such a view! "To consort with the crowd is harmful; there is no person who does not make some vice attractive to us, or stamp it upon us, or taint us unconsciously therewith." or so Seneca says! Avail yourself of the knowledge I have yielded to you, assent and ascend my friend!

> This fine vegetable is an acquired taste

Never once have I heard anyone say this about tomatoes.

I find it much more likely that you’ve have somehow only ever had bad tomatoes, have bad taste yourself, or are being intentionally contrarian.

Some people hate the taste of chocolate, for crissakes. No need to insult them. Just eat their chocolate!

Alright, it turns out that you're missing out. You're just dead wrong. I know this because I used to feel the exact same way. Many tomatos are garbage. Mealy, yet also slimy, and no flavor except for an acidic aftertaste so you don't forget it too soon.

As it turns out though not all tomatos are created equal. Your grocery store is going to have a hard time having good ones, my understanding is that breeding pressures have selected for prettier but not tastier varieties. You will likely only find a tomato worth eating in a friends garden or in a farmers market. There is a huge variety out there, if you get curious I'd recommend just picking a couple at random, maybe one that has "beef streak" in the name. I personally enjoy these little dark ones called "black krim" because they are delicious and the name sounds like drugs in a sci-fi setting or currency in an illegal underground bazaar in a fantasy setting.

The way you eat them is to slice and salt. Or, take a portion of burrata, place in a bowl with slices/chunks of tomato, add olive oil and liberally sprinkle with salt, then eat. Or, I guess other ways too. The point is that tomatos can be authentically good.

Actually I think I'm allergic, I get itchy and develop a rash when I cut raw tomatoes. I've talked to a few people and apparently I'm the only one this happens to. I've hated them since I was young, maybe it's a Pavlovian conditioning thing, wouldn't be the first time I've managed to condition myself to the point of nausea, or at least gagging. Good way to get off Captain Morgan and build an aversion to nicotine products.

You might like this fun song by Mason Williams (of Classical Gas fame)

The Tomato Vendetta - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGdYoVm8OVU

The whole album is great BTW.

I'm a fan of #17. Eat them raw.

I'm half the man my dad was. He would pick a red onion and eat it raw as well. Like one would eat an apple. I'm still working on that skill...

1. Do not store it in the fridge

Why?

Best way to make a tomato turn to mush faster than it should.

It will lend a metallic taste to the fruit’s otherwise sweetly acidic flesh.

The recommendation I received was to store produce the same way your grocery store does. They've spent a lot of time and effort on this, so their method probably works. Sorry I can't address the real meat of your question though.

My grocer stores produce under flickering fluorescent lights serenaded by Don Henley and Duran Duran. I’m afraid I’m not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to replicate that environment.

Your grocery store preserves to max longevity on the shelf.

If you want to max for flavour and umami, get it out of the fridge at least 24h before.

I've never seen vegetables or fruit being refrigerated in supermarkets, have you?

Chilled, misted, but never refrigerated.

the sugar turns to something else and it tastes like crap.

It tastes much better.

Vegetables are like wine, taste varies from variety used, terroir, harvest approach, how they are stored and preserved, the small tricks used during cooking..

All of this compounds into the taste of the dish.

I love how HN makes me curious about the randomest things.

Shit, now I'm curious to know what a 2011 PDF on how to eat a tomato says!

We chop them up coarsely, sprinkle on bits of feta and maybe basil, then add a bit of nice olive oil and stir.

Try oregano instead of basil next time!

The "How to eat shrimp" pdf must be collosal!

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