Why Entrepreneurs Can't Sleep | Hacker News Reader

Why Entrepreneurs Can't Sleep

humbledmba.com

131 pointsddwoodworth63 comments

You'll see links to F.lux [0] occasionally on HN, but I can't overstate how F.lux has changed my life.

Before F.lux, my laptop would suck me in. I would browse HN, Metafilter, and Twitter even as my eyes stung and my head felt like a bag of sand. Eventually I would go to bed at 3am, confused about how time flew by so quickly.

The next morning was always rough. Some days I would wake up at 8am and arrive at work on time with a headache. Sometimes I would jump up at a quarter to nine, arrive an hour late, and chug two tall cups of coffee before noon. I'm embarrassed to say that I called in sick a few times because I was too exhausted to get out of bed. This was a terrible existence.

With F.lux I feel myself getting sleepy. After a certain hour, my body kills any running mental processes and orders me to sleep. I always get sunlight and exercise, but eliminating blue light in this controlled experiment (with F.lux and a Kindle for late-night reading) has dramatically improved my quality of sleep.

My only problem with F.lux is that I can't find the "Donate" link on their page.

[0] http://stereopsis.com/flux/

OP here. I've been using F.lux for several years now. I really can't understand why anyone would not use it. It's so easy on the eyes.

If you like F.lux and you're an OSX user, I'd also recommend using it with Toggle Screenshade [http://screenshade.en.softonic.com/mac]. It doesn't change the color composition like F.lux does. It just reduces the brightness of the monitor well below OSX default minimum. It's shocking little light that gets through. Give yourself 2 minutes to adjust in a dark room, and you'll still be able to see the monitor, but with much less light intrusion on your body.

Second, if you're getting hardcore on this. You should also buy a orange plastic screen shade from Low Blue Lights [https://www.lowbluelights.com/products.asp?cid=16] or make one yourself. I have one rubber-banded to my monitor at night. It ~triples the effect of Flux.

This is really better than any donation. :)

+1 for "changed my life." Seriously, but for f.lux I would probably have sought medical treatment for persistent insomnia. (And when I swapped laptops recently and stupidly put off installation I had two months of Zomg Schedule Hell before remembering "Oh yeah, this acharacteristic inability to sleep is exactly like life before flux".)

This is exactly my experience with F.lux as well. I haven't had real insomnia for about a year and a half now, except earlier this week --- I had reinstalled my laptop and forgotten to add Flux as a startup item.

Thanks so much to both you and @lorna. :)

Can't overstate this. For some reason Flux got deactivated on my computer. I just found out. The last nights my sleep shift has shifted and shifted. Until 6am bed time. Go figure.

For mornings, esp. in winter, I use a day light lamp [1]. Highly recommended.

[1] http://www.philips.co.uk/c/light-therapy/golite-blu-recharge...

Thanks for this--its tough to get good light during winter. I'll grab one for those colder months on the horizon.

And for Linux users whose distro doesn't have a F.lux package, redshift is often available as a nice alternative in your package tree.

Oh, thanks. F.lux doesn't work on my 11.04 Ubuntu netbook, probably because of display drivers.

As I understand it, F.lux works because your body uses light cues to determine the rate of melatonin production. Essentially: less light (or warmer light) => more melatonin production => sleepiness.

Rather than mess around with your monitors' color balance (which I find extremely annoying), I just skip the first step and pop an over the counter melatonin pill. It works splendidly, doesn't seem to be habit forming (been using it on and off for 5 years; it basically got me through the last 2 years of college), and doesn't seem to have any adverse side effects other than more vivid dreams (or, equivalently, better recollection of dreams).

I tried melatonin a few times and experienced some very groggy mornings. I also experienced a few nights where I could not sleep after taking a 3mg tab.

For those considering it, let me suggest a very small dose (0.5-0.75 mg, or 1/4th of a tablet) and 9-10 hours to try it out. Don't pop one of these at 2am and expect to feel great the next day.

Are your groggy mornings after only sleeping a few hours? I only use melatonin if I am able to get at least 7 hours of sleep, or maybe 6.5 in a pinch, but with or without melatonin I'll be groggy in the morning with less than 6.5 hours of sleep. I take 1mg doses, although I initially took 3mg and didn't notice a difference. This study seems to show that 3mg is overkill, and that .3mg is probably sufficient:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/86/10/4727

I had one night of hitting the sack at 10am after taking 3mg and not sleeping at all (maybe 4am?). The other night I took 3mg 8-9 hours before waking up and I still felt groggy.

I wouldn't deter people from melatonin but they should start with very small doses.

I've used melatonin. When I first tried it, I was on a lot of medication, so my brain chemistry was pretty whacked, and it would leave me feeling half asleep for like 3 days. I agree with the suggestion to try a low dose version. However, it also helps to take co-q-10 the following morning. It is the co-enzyme to melatonin and wakes the brain up. It counteracts the effects of melatonin.

For those saying melatonin left you wide awake: It also has immune function uses. I have had times when I took it (during the day) to treat a health issue rather than a sleep issue and the impact was to wake me up.

Trader Joe's has 500mcg (i.e. 0.5mg) tablets. Walmart had 300mcg tablets, which were absolutely ideal, but they've stopped carrying them locally.

There was an excellent article I read a few years back which made the case that 300mcg is the ideal dose for nightly use. Over 1mg, the body adapts to it and it loses effect.

The smaller tablets are preferable to breaking larger ones, since it's hard to be consistent due to the manner in which they crack, as well as the potentially uneven distribution of melatonin to filler in each tablet.

As I understand it, it isn't so much less light or warmer light as much as it is a lack of blue light. The amount of blue light during the day time in the sun is huge. F.lux works by reducing the color temperature which greatly reduces the amount of blue light coming from the display and shifts it to red light.

I might've misused the word "warmer," but I thought warmer light just meant light with less blue in it.

+1 for melatonin. I actually like the vivid dreams. I also dream in brighter colors while on it.

I have noticed that it doesn't mix well with alcohol though. It still puts me to sleep, but then I'm up at 4am and definitely not refreshed.

As far as I know vivid dreaming is not equivalent to better recollection of dreams. A dream is vivid when and only when you are aware of the fact that you're dreaming while it happens. It isn't necessarily true just because you're able to recall.

That's not at all what I meant by "vivid." I meant clear and intense, not necessarily a lucid dream. I only mentioned that recollection may be equivalent, because it's possible that, while not using melatonin supplements, I was technically dreaming just as much, but my sleep/wake pattern was such that I never recalled the dreams in the morning.

OT: That's lucid dreaming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream

I stand corrected. Thank you.

Oh my god this app is amazing!! How did I not know about it!

It's midnight here, I was feeling bleary-eyed and wide awake, switched on F.lux, and now I feel like I'm being bathed in the warm glow of a nightlight..

three thumbs up.

1. I love F.lux as well but it is (still) buggy for me, especially on my living room Mac Mini (where it is connected to an HDTV – F.lux never remembers to apply the white-point shift after the display reawakens…).

2. If people would like to see their iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch do the same thing, Apple needs to allow such functionality. Request F.lux support – native or by exposing an API – on iOS by duping #10158436 on http://bugreport.apple.com. (Please!)

Thanks for mentioning F.lux. I recall reading about it a while back but never tried it. I'm planning to install it tomorrow.

I did a quick search for an iPad equivalent, but nothing promising turned up. I'll keep looking. Much of my evening and night reading is on the iPad and I've wondered if the 'glow' has been disrupting my sleep.

If anyone has suggestions for non-jailbroken iOS devices, please share. Thanks.

Yes, please! Even if it is not a software solution (like some kind of physical filter I could place on top of the screen.)

I've got f.lux on my laptop, but I predominantly use my iPad in the evenings.

I figured there'd be a software limitation, so I was envisioning a physical filter as well. Something like those privacy screens that 3M markets to business travelers for laptops.

I just sent an e-mail to Marco. Hopefully he'll be able to implement this in to InstaPaper.

There are a few problems with this, chief among them being that tinting the screen with amber probably requires some iOS API hack that's probably not public.

I had heard it mentioned before but just installed it for the first time. It's only been 5 minutes and I've already adjusted pretty well to the color balance shift. I thought that it would end up driving me nuts but I think this'll really help. Thanks for the recommendation!

I have thought about this before, and I can confidently trace it back to two causes in my own life.

1) This was happening even when I was a developer and not just an entrepreneur. It is because when you are working on a problem, you want to reach a "save state" before going away. So you can pick up where you left off in the morning. Sometimes you think the "save state" is just an hour away and it turns out to be 3 hours or more. Basically you have the context in your head NOW and it's annoying to have to serialize it into something and unserialize it later. You want to at least finish a subtask. As a result, the "bedtime" of a developer is indefinite, unlike in 9-5 careers where you can clock out and stop thinking about things.

For entrepreneurs, this is a smaller problem, but for developer-entrepreneurs, it is a combined problem. The entrepreneur might be puzzle-solving at night as well, and doesn't want to have to serialize/unserialize in some arbitrary state. Also their brain gets used to problem solving and can't stop. Kind of like this: http://xkcd.com/356/

2) Now, the second reason is that we are probably young, in our 20s or early 30s. As a result, we came out of a college environment and late night partying is important to younger people. Late night anything, because one again, that is the time that young people have for themselves and they don't want to put a definite curfew on it. You can be more irresponsible earlier in life, drinking and socializing until late. In addition, many young people have to study in college and aren't gonna get fired if they don't show up at 8 AM to work, so once again we have this "I don't want to put this book down until I've finished the chapter" thing.

As you get older and have a family, if you have to wake up early, then your habits will change.

I also have a theory that young people have ALWAYS been more nocturnal than their elders, who become morning people at 70 :)

I can't speak for everyone, but for some it's a case of never being able to get your brain to shut down properly from a work point of view, which can be both the reason for sleep problems and the reason for success.

My current boss summed it up once when he said "the reason I'm always working outside hours [he works most evenings, will often get an email from him at 3am, most days a call sometime between 8pm and midnight - and this isn't some young startup hacker, he's a successful CEO of 10 years] is that I'm afraid of missing any opportunities".

Another way of putting that is Carpe Diem, one of my favourite quotes.

I'm the same, no matter what I'm doing - including trying to get to sleep - thoughts keep cropping up. Should we be talking to Company X. Do we need to hire Person Y. Why haven't we created Product Z.

This might sound a little weird, but try putting an large ice-pack on your head while you're lying in bed, ready to go to sleep:

http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/17/tip-for-insomniacs-coo...

I've done it a few times and after about 10 minutes, any racing-thoughts in my brain dissipate, and it becomes much easier to go to sleep.

I don't know if it's necessarily a good thing to get rid of it.

Maybe a better balance is needed, but I think there's a real link with the kind of person who can't sleep for thinking of work, and success in what they are doing.

I've found my poor sleep correlates with how late I'm working on a problem. I try to go to bed around 11pm. If I'm done working by 6pm I'm more likely to sleep ok. 8pm is pushing it. Any later than that the problem won't be out of my head by the time I lay down, and it stays there all night.

Working on a problem late can sometimes be beneficial. I've been up late with a problem in my head and went to bed with little downtime. It's hard to go to sleep, definitely. However, I've actually dreamt the solution a few times, and woke up the next morning knowing exactly what to code.

This happened two nights ago. I was coding something fairly complex and had a hard time connecting everything together. It was something I had been struggling with for two weeks. In a dream, I figured out how to make things much simpler. The next morning I deleted 1000 lines of code, re-structured things, and got it working succinctly.

But you definitely don't sleep very well when you do it. :)

Couldn't agree more... happens to me all the time.

Theory 5: Hackers are always on their devices so they experience the effects of inappropriate light at night to a greater extent.

First thing is nope I had the problems like his before I had a computer. Had it when I was a kid and right though out high school, right now I'm staying with my parents while I focus on some products, and am waking around 10am again, thats my naturally sleep pattern 2am-10am.

But I'll agree the computer CAN makes it worse ... because even as the guy mentioned controlling light can be critical. On the flip side it can make it easier to sleep by mentally tiring you, if you have a problem you have to test it and see. Both are true for me.

As for what he said about lighting 100% agree with it. I summed it up the other day here talking about how I created a fake sun rise in my room : http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2990669 what I didn't mention was I hid every single light source. My room was pitch black, I rewired my body clock by controlling the light.

I had the problems like his before I had a computer

Did you watch a lot of television?

Nope not really, I read a lot of books. I can remember one day buying Red Dwarf:Better Than Life, and finishing it overnight and maybe getting an hour or twos sleep.

I grew up in a rural community and wasn't really interested in TV or technology really. I didn't even learn to program till was I was 22 (only after I had serious sporting accident where I had broken arms and legs and had to drop out of art school). Although I'll admit I did learn to write BASIC on school computers when I was 10 or so, just seemed to be a natural at programming.

I've had assorts of weird sleeps things over the years, for ages I had night terrors but they seem to have gone away and been replaced with a suffocation effect. I'll wake up gasping for breathe in the middle of the night now. The night terrors went away as soon as I understood what was going on, I guess the suffocation maybe related but without the panic aspects.

The night terrors went away as soon as I understood what was going on, I guess the suffocation maybe related but without the panic aspects.

Yeah, those are still night terrors. I have the suffocation thing once in a great while (usually while napping on a hot day), and occasionally wake up convinced there is a rat walking on the ceiling, or -- when camping -- mosquitoes all over the interior of my tent ceiling. After a couple of seconds, I realize I'm so nearsighted that there is no way I could possibly make out a mosquito on the ceiling of my tent. :-)

Anyway, I've generally tended toward peak activity in the late evening, and tend toward a 2am - 10am sleep schedule (as evidenced by it being 1:52am now). That said, in the periods where I do get myself consistently to sleep by midnight, I feel much better all day, every day.

I've found that I need about an hour of intense exercise per day, no caffeine after around 5pm, and, of course, the actual self-discipline to get started on going to bed by 11pm. 300mcg of melatonin per night helps me stay more deeply asleep, and it doesn't cause the body to build a tolerance.

Oh, and eating dinner at a 'normal' hour (5 - 7pm) makes a huge difference in my ability to fall asleep earlier.

Wouldn't the same be true of someone who watched a lot of TV?

I challenge you to find someone who regularly brings their TV into bed with them and watches it under the covers.

Yes, obviously there are many non-hackers who have this problem. Just thought it was funny it wasn't one of the hypotheses listed, given that it's directly related to the cause of this guy's insomnia.

Hrm? Everyone I know except myself has a TV in the bedroom that they can watch from their bed.

in 20 years we will look back at our "work" and not see a "life" around it. I burn the midnight oil and watch the sun come up once a week, but turning off the desk lamp at 5pm to engage in life is critical for me to be recharged for the next days' opportunities and challenges.

I was think about getting one of these yellow tinted glasses instead of a screen filter (f.lux isn't enough for me). Anyone has experience with them? (i.e. something like this: http://www.amazon.com/GUNNAR-Gaming-Eyewear-Mercury-Frame/dp...)

I keep hearing about how blue light in the morning helps you wake up and have more energy throughout the day.

Does anyone have experience with this product: http://www.amazon.com/Philips-goLITE-BLU-Therapy-Device/dp/B...

I've used the goLITE BLU device for just over a year now and have found it to be really effective for giving me more energy. Use cases: full blast soon after waking up to reset my circadian rhythms and then on a lower setting later in the day. (You obviously need to be careful not to use it too late in the day as it will inhibit the synthesis of serotonin into melatonin.) I would describe the energy boost as subtle, but effective and long-lasting.

That said, it's way overpriced. You could make your own device for MUCH less. Basically, any blue leds operating around 470 nm, which are pennies apiece on digi-key, would work. Wire up a whole bunch in parallel, put them behind a diffuser and you're good to go!

I've looked at that as well, but one of the reviews scared me away: http://www.amazon.com/review/R33CBCI3HRGKDJ/ref=cm_srch_res_...

Instead I'm going for exposure to any light in the morning and breaking the fast with a small snack.

Googling for the quoted text in the review reveals that the original source appears to be the website of a competing product. I cannot find the article in Science which is supposedly referenced but not cited.

Looks like there has been significant research on chronotype (A person's preference for daytime vs. nighttime activities). One study showed "About 1/10 people are actually hard-wired... to be early risers" and "2/10 people are what are known as night owls". So there maybe some proof to your genetics theory. People maybe hardwired to reach peak functionality at different times.

http://www.kwollity.com/2010/03/are-you-a-late-or-early-chro... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronotype http://www.roundtheclocksystems.com/methods5_ctest.html

Which would make sense in evolutionary terms. You want someone in your group to be awake at night as a watch. Its also very helpful to have very early morning risers, to prepare stuff for the group.

group selection?

I've always been a night owl (fortunately, not DSPS) with my most productive hours and highest energy late into the evening. This usually led me to wake up late too, as you'd expect.

In the last few months, however, I've found myself waking up early too - because I am so excited about what I am working on. Sometimes, I'll try to sleep in. All that leads me to do is just lie there, thinking about all the stuff I could be doing instead.

What I perhaps ought to do is take a siesta in the afternoon to balance out this lack of sleep. I haven't done that yet though...

(Web) Entrepreneurs don't sleep because they're proficient with the internet. Not only do you get into a routine of not going to sleep, but your also not really trying to. I know, this was me!

Now I try to unwind, I have to make conscious decision to down tools and watch the TV, set the timer. I have a time when I know I should really have my head down.

On the flip-side, 2-3 years ago - I was up till 6-7am, waking at 12/1pm and repeating all over again. After all, I had the internet (read: unlimited stuff to look at) and nothing to get up for.

Most entrepreneurs have horrible sleep hygiene is why most of them can't sleep.

That doesn't mean you should shift over to waking up at 6am or anything, but it is something learnable, just like shaving or keeping a child clean.

Here is a link of getting your sleep hygiene under control I wrote a bit back: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2453370

I think light sensitivity can also play a role in this. I find direct sunlight uncomfortable, especially in summer and winter (sun reflecting off the snow). As soon as evening begins my brain fires into gear. I think other Asperger's types might struggle w this too, without even realizing it.

A friend recently recommended using sunglasses more, which I'm going to try out. Makes sense

Also +1 for Flux, it's great.

Interestingly enough my Uncle is the same way. He is an entrepreneur although, his business has absolutely nothing to do with the tech industry, so it's not a problem unique to hackers, but to startups. Along with my own experience, my startup is in tech field, of trying to get a startup up and running I would have to say number 4 is probably, at least in my and my uncle's case, the most probable cause of insomnia. The later it gets the less texts I get, the less emails to answer, my friends are all asleep, and I feel like I can finally get some work done.

When I was working a full-time job, I found I could be super productive between 7am and 9am before most other people got in, then I wouldn't really get a huge amount done beyond supervisory and mentoring type work until 8pm or so when I could restart working.

Currently, on my own stuff, I work about 11pm to 3 or 4am which has been super productive but somewhat tiring. The huge benefit is almost complete peace and quiet, which really helps me focus.

I'm in High School and regularly go to bed later than 3 because of the points you raised. F.lux has also made my life much better. I love to wake up early, that's my other problem. I hate to sleep in and waste time.

#2 is definitely a factor for me - regular hours never worked well for me.

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