The bureaucracy of hiking Hungary's Blue Trail | Hacker News Reader

The bureaucracy of hiking Hungary's Blue Trail

calvertjournal.com

87 pointsredeemed42 comments

I get the impression that this is a system wherein honest mistakes and failure to adhere to strict rules are punished, while outright cheating is allowed simply because it's difficult or impossible to catch. Meanwhile, the strict rules exist in part in order to try to make cheating harder, but don't actually seem to make it harder to cheat, they just make it harder to complete the trail in an honest fashion.

As such, this seems like a cautionary tale for a wide variety of human-designed systems, especially centrally-administered systems such as in governments and corporations.

That said, I love the idea of a trail like this, and I love the idea of collecting stamps along the way.

And like the article also mentions, the stamps are very much like the concept of "gamification" in software where people enjoy getting badges of achievements even if they serve no real purpose in themselves.

"Stamp rallies" in Japan are so common that they invented their own pseudo-English word for them. The OG is the Shikoku 88 Temple Pilgrimage, which requires you to collect stamps from 88 different temples, preferably by walking 1200 km:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikoku_Pilgrimage

Although there's no prize or verifying authority for completion.

> Although there's no prize or verifying authority for completion

There’s only one way to restore your honor if you cheat on a stamp rally!

Ah, yes, the ancient ritual of Stamppuku.

committing sudoku?

> Although there's no prize or verifying authority for completion.

And that solves many problems stated in the article. Rewards are tricky and create a willingness to optimize on how to obtain the reward instead of enjoying the experience.

I got into audax/randonneuring a couple of years back. It's almost just going for long bike rides, but with enough structure to make it interesting and keep pushing yourself. I navigate by GPS (and, frankly, couldn't handle using a paper routesheet like the real traditionalists do), but I love the physicality of having your brevet card and getting it stamped at the control points, and getting it back as a souvenir later with another stamp on (once it's been sent to Paris for official recordkeeping).

In this case it doesn't seem so bad, as long as the cheats aren't massively damaging the reputation or enjoyment of the trail. Let them have their petty triumphs.

It reminds me a bit of the current popularity of Escape Rooms. A lot of the ones in the UK will rank your time and keep track of monthly or overall records. Of course, it's easy to get the record just by doing it twice, or first listening to how your friends did it. But who would bother?

> But who would bother?

Oh sweet summer child

There is no stamp system but relatively recently some cool people in Romania have also launched a hiking trail that I found quite interesting, Via Transilvanica. The guide can be downloaded from here [1] and the trail in its entirety looks something like this: [2]. I highly recommend it for those who are into hiking/long walking and who are in this general area.

[1] https://www.viatransilvanica.com/ghid

[2] https://www.mesagerulhunedorean.ro/wp-content/uploads/2019/0...

An European who comes to US to hike appalachian trail has similar administrative obstacles. Visa (explaining that I will be hiking for 4 months, not working), all sort of insurances, camping permits...

Wait, how is this remotely the same?

Bureaucracy is white noise no matter what language is used.

None of the things mentioned in the article are remotely comparable to just wanting to vacation in the US for a few months.

Having done both of these activities a few times (vacation in the US, hiking around Hungary) I can say with great confidence that they are a lot more similar than you might think - but then again, you might have a smoother time with ICE and America's border histrionics than many.

Camping permits are about capacity limits and funding, not bureaucracy.

>capacity limits and funding, not bureaucracy.

These things are all related.

As someone who actually hiked that trail: I think the author is just missing the point: yes the whole system could be improved, that´s correct, but that´s not IMPORTANT! Collecting the stamps is just to motivate people, give them a feeling of accomplishment. You can opt for not getting a single stamp, but collecting them is just part of a tradition, which has it´s roots way back before the socialist era. Also note: this is whole thing is jut run by a bunch of volunteers in their free time, and they for sure spend their own money to do so. BR W

Agreed. Each stamp print is a small reward and seeing more and more of the beautifully designed prints appear in your booklet feels great. I started hiking the trail in 2019 with my dog - we both have separate collection booklets - and I hope when we finally complete the trail, he too can get his own badge.

I love this! My dog would love to hike this with us. The ~4900 mile/~7900 km trip to get there in the first place, not so much :)

I agree, I really don't get why they're being so negative about something that's just meant to be a nice thing while you do your hike.

> I really don't get why they're being so negative

Complaining is a national sport in Hungary, it's in our DNA.

I hiked 30 miles over 3 days once and it was an epic adventure, leaving me exhausted. It's hard for me to even imagine what a 700 mile trip like this on foot is like! And the PCT is almost four times longer....

I hiked the Camino de Santiago about ten years ago, taking ~6 weeks to do 600 miles. Exhaustion really isn't the issue, you reach a steady state. The bigger risk is repetitive stress injury - I came back with a numb spot on my hip that took a few years to go away. I also came back married, but that one hasn't gone away.

> I also came back married

That's indeed a sore spot that doesn't go away :)

Why do people still make jokes like this about marriage? It seems very outdated.

because we haven't learned yet how to prepare for and maintain a good relationship to have a happy marriage.

Because people like to joke about things that are common causes of little problems (and sometimes big ones) to so many of us in life. What exactly is so outdated about it? or the real fact that marriage is a marathon sometimes?

You can go to any place, anywhere on Earth, at any point in time, make a joke about marriage and some human will get it. Not on HN though :)

The CDT is even worse. And there are parts of the CDT where towns are 120 miles apart--you either carry enough food to cross that or you cache supplies in the wilderness (there are roads you can get access with) to pick up along the way.

And here I thought the goal of hiking a long trail was pride of achievement when you get when you finish it. Silly me.

A little bit of structure and tradition enhances the experience. You feel more part of a shared culture, and it gives you a reason to stretch a little further than you would otherwise.

Have you hiked a long trail before?

I did the Camino de Santiago, starting at Vezelay, and I am not a sentimental person, but I very much cherish my stamp book. It elicits very different memories from me compared to when I look back at pictures I took, or read my diary from that time.

Why yes. Yes, I have. The John Muir trail in California. Three weeks, 213 miles, 47,000 feet of elevation gain, and all I got was a lifetime of memories.

I've hiked both and they are very different experiences. The JMT offers natural beauty and (relative) solitude. The camino is a cultural and social experience. The little passport book is a cute and benign part of camino culture.

And you took no pictures, and wrote no words, and took no memorabilia? Where would you even get a stamp book up there?

Are pictures and written words a requirement now? Wish I knew that 35 years ago when I made the trip.

No one said they were a requirement. It's bizarre how defensive you are over these questions.

Maybe that is something about European psyche that worships bureaucracy as the highest human achievement.

I am more into the camp which likes hiking for the sake of it instead of recognition by some regulatory body.

Camino de Santiago has a stamp system but it is mostly for the purpose of getting free lodging and meals on the way. People can cheat but those people probably are not interested in those simple accommodations anyway.

Well there are a lot of things people enjoy about hiking. Trying to follow a tradition stretching back 90 years of collecting stamps in a little book does sound quite appealing, like taking daily pictures with a soft toy, or keeping a journal with pics or sketches, or developing fun little in-jokes with the people you’re with. There’s a lot more you can enjoy on top of completing the walk itself

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