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Comment by JohnBooty | Hacker News Reader

Agree completely, though, I also don't feel like this sort of (awesome) thing is what anybody is talking about when they discuss cultural appropriation!

Cross-pollination like this is, I dare say, universally loved and recognized as vital.

Generally when people speak of "cultural appropriation" it's a situation where you have a majority and/or oppressing group capitalizing on the culture of a minority and/or oppressed group.

Think of the difference between two prison inmates building on each others' ideas is collaboration, and a prison guard stealing their music.

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Maybe that nuance was originally intended, but look around and you will find plenty of claims that wearing dreadlocks, rapping or making sushi at home are examples of cultural appropriation, if done by the wrong person.

Actually, that’s a good gut check to test whether emancipatory movements have lost their plot: how often do their prescriptions hinge on identity.

It's gotten to the point where people are even criticized for tanning too much beyond what is supposedly acceptable for their identity.

That's a pretty fringe outlook. A good piece of advice would be:

Every belief, good or bad, has a lunatic fringe that takes that belief to some stupid extreme.

If we judge every belief by its most deluded lunatic fringe, then we would be forced to conclude that there are literally zero beliefs or ideas worth subscribing to. The lunatic fringe is always there, and it is always scary and/or really, really dumb.

Learn to recognize the fringe.

I agree but it is also worth how/if the majority reacts to those kind of fringe ideas.

That's a good point.

I think perhaps the importance of that depends on how... unified the group is, you know?

If there are 3 people at a dinner table and one of them is acting badly, definitely hold the other 2 accountable.

If there are 1,000,000 people in a political party and 1% of them are acting badly, I think the 99% and the leaders are somewhat responsible.

If there's a vague concept like "cultural appropriation" or "cringeworthiness" that isn't owned by anybody, I don't know how practical it is for people using the term to really have responsibility for people that misuse it.

At some point there's just a practical limit I think.

Or you could just not go on twitter.

The idea there is a mass movement of people saying other people tan too much is beyond delusional.

> Generally when people speak of "cultural appropriation" it's a situation where you have a majority and/or oppressing group capitalizing on the culture of a minority and/or oppressed group.

I think the issue, as illustrated in replies to you, is that many people's only exposure to conversations about cultural appropriation are extreme examples brought to their attention by someone seeking to highlight how absurd they are (or more typically, get some click revenue) and not necessarily representative

Do you have any examples?

Examples of the primary exposure to the concept of cultural appropriation being fringe cases the appear absurd? Sure, just search it on YouTube. Regardless of the vagaries of the algo for you, several examples are sure to be on the first page.

Sure. Plenty in the replies here; just scroll a bit.

Folks claiming the idea of "cultural appropriation" is absurd, because they heard that "eating sushi" or "getting a deep tan if you're white" are "cultural appropriation" and so therefore the whole idea is dumb.

It's about as valid as claiming that Linux users are maniacs because hey, I heard there was this one creepy dude at a conference once and he used Linux.

What I occasionally see is that wearing other cultures clothing is seen as appropriation by people who aren't members of the culture, when actual members of the culture appreciate it.

If it is actual members of the culture complaining, it makes much more sense than when non members are complaining on their behalf.

Yeah. I feel like this is a very real phenomenon and is often done deliberately, and in bad faith.

Also various social media algorithms certainly contribute to it, as they favor engagement over all.

> and a prison guard stealing their music

That's a pretty tortured metaphor.

Would it be morally ok for the prisoners to steal the guard's music?

What if cultural borrowing is the societal precursor to acceptance and integration?

    That's a pretty tortured metaphor.

All analogies are imperfect by definition. Hopefully you understood the concept: there's a difference between the collaboration between equals and theft by oppressor. I wouldn't think that's too controversial.

    Would it be morally ok for the prisoners to steal the guard's music?

No, not really.

    What if cultural borrowing is the societal 
    precursor to acceptance and integration?

Yeah, I think it often is! It's probably a good thing more often than not.

I hope you are not misunderstanding the concept of cultural appropriation to mean that you should literally never collaborate with or incorporate outside influences? If so then, well, good news - it's not that.

I thought this was a really elegant summary and powerful metaphor that helped me understand the perspective of people who believe it's a problem, even though it didn't change my position and attitude toward its applicability. The idea of "civilization" as a prison (babylon) is a very rich idea in rastafarian culture on whose shoulders dancehall stands.

If you know dancehall and even an outsiders view of rasta culture, I read the article as using a bit of trivia as an attempt at a kind of ideological castration of dancehall music by retelling its origins and attributing credit for it not to a black rastafarian man in Jamaica, but to an asian woman in Japan. Rastafarian masculinity is problematic for american black progressives, and the article seemed consitent with their cultural unmooring project.

While the objection to the metaphor a reasonable challenge - that the metaphor has underlying complexity doesn't diminish it for me.

The load-bearing word in that sentence is "stealing," rather than "prison guard."

it's not stealing

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