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Comment by tenonyx | Hacker News Reader

> So...people like you? you sound really judgemental man.

I know it sounds bad, but I don't want to meet people like me. I really don't like myself right now :) I'm looking for a way out from this state, not a way to settle in.

It's like you can't treat depression by hanging out with other depressed people, it'll make you worse.

> Since you have no friends(so nothing to hold you where you are, right?), and apparently a good source of income, I'd advise you to go remote, travel, try digital nomadism, go to meetups, meet other travelers, maybe try coworking spaces? hacker houses/airbnbs with people from lots of different places?

Traveling and digital nomading is definitely on my list, the pandemic delayed the plans. I'm afraid though, that it'll only lead me to meeting more and more developers. I tried a bunch of coworking spaces in my area, and this is exactly what happened. Meetups in my area were also only tech-related.

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> […] I don’t want to meet people like me

How do you know they’re like you? How do you know all the single guys there are just looking to hook up or find girlfriends? How do you know all the aging, unattractive women are just looking for a husband? Feels like you are projecting.

To give a different perspective - I also took dance classes before COVID. I went into it with the mindset that I wanted to learn how to dance (to wit, I failed miserable). If dancing is secondary to you, it’s going to be noticed (people can pick up on desperation). Don’t treat it as the chore you have to do before you can talk to someone. My favorite dance partner was a widow that just wanted to dance with a man who knew how to take lead on a dance. She wasn’t looking to date. Just dance and have a conversation. Many of the single women I met there were the same. I made some good friends (not call at 2am for bail money friends). Men and women.

> Meetups in my area were also only tech-related.

Did you try meetup.com? Did they only had tech events where you are? If so, that’s crazy. I found my virtual book club from meetup.com (win!). I tried a wine tasting, but it was 3 groups of people who knew each other and me (loss!). Did learn a lot about wine (win!). Not every meetup is going to be successful so pick things that are actually interesting vs. trying to guess which one will have the most people.

To sum all this rambling up - you have to be interested in the activity of the event. If you’re not and you treat it like a chore, people can tell.

> I wanted to learn how to dance (to wit, I failed miserable)

Perhaps you gave up too early, or had a poor coach. I am terribly awkward, but I persisted, and eventually people who didn't know me told me I was "talented". What a laugh.

Unfortunately my school was closed due to COVID. And it was one of those that couldn’t weather the time closed. I’m going to pick it back up, and go into it realizing that Fred Astaire I ain’t :)

>Did you try meetup.com?

So this is a bit offtopic (but maybe ontopic for HN), did meetup go through some change in ownership, revenue model etc. ? I can agree with the observation that meetup.com doesn't have as many fun/cheap/random/hobby based meetups any more. Everything feels a lot more commercial compared to a few years ago. Maybe it's area specific, maybe it's COVID, maybe it's a bunch of different factors. I think you need to pay to host a meetup whereas it used to be free earlier ?

Hm…I don’t know. It would explain why so many of the meetups seem to be more like sponsored “come check out our venue” type things (the wine tasting I did definitely was). There are some legitimate ones in there, but it took a long time to find my book club. I chalked it up to COVID. but maybe it was a change in “we’re not making any money” thinking…

  > did meetup go through some change in ownership, revenue model etc. ?

Yes, and yes, and yes. It was bought by WeWork and then sold off. It went through an effort to monetize attendance. It raised costs on group organizers. There's a lot less local/random/organic community on there now.

I'm not sure how well this will be received on HN, but if you're looking for a meeting place with folks that generally skew toward more community integration / more vibrant social lives, and which doesn't require already knowing someone, I'd suggest picking up a sport. Granted, you'll have to contend with the stereotypical "bro" types, but there'll also be well-adjusted young professionals in a similar position as yourself, and sports naturally lend themselves toward friendship building. From personal experience, whenever I'm in a new city, I find a local basketball run and before long am going out for drinks / food / concerts with people I consider friends, and have even found roommates in this way.

I recommend a Kickball league. Less “bro” types for the most part. Although to be fair, my league had this one team that everyone hated because they were super serious. But the rest of us all got along great.

Dodgeball is another sport like this! There are very serious dodgeball teams, but generally they compete with each other and not the beer league. Even the super serious players tended to be friendly and willing to play at the same level rather than dominating. Added benefit is dodgeball is not dependent on weather.

I think looking for a sport that requires coed teams is a good way to ensure that things remain more social than competitive. (Not knocking women athletes, just noting that mixed sports tend to be about socializing.)

Reminds me of the time I went out to a draft for a softball league and got picked up as the token man. All my teammates played D2 softball together. I always thought I was a reasonably good rec league player. But that team was something else. I lasted 2 games in the field before I got made the designated hitter. If I didn’t get a home run, I was going to be replaced by a pinch runner :)

But after the game, it was a blast.

Ultimate (frisbee) is also great for pretty casual sporting.

Many cities also have social co-ed rec softball and volleyball leagues, often with a beer afterwards. It's a great way to meet people once a week for a low pressure activity.

> Traveling and digital nomading is definitely on my list, the pandemic delayed the plans.

Ironically, I find this to be even more isolating. One thing is right in the name, nomad, your not making and permanent or lasting friendships. Sure, you meet a lot of people but everyone is just going on their own after. Also I find travel to not be something relatable at all to most people. Most people can't do it, and get weird about it. Its very expensive or you need to luck into a certain life style. No one is interested in seeing travel pics or talking about places ime.

I traveled a bunch in my youth and it’s definitely not a cure all for life’s meaning. It was exactly like that line from Fight Club - single serving friends. After a while it gets tiring to meet interesting people, hang out for a while and go through the topics you enjoy and feel like you connect. Then they’re or you are off to the other side of the world and that’s the end of that friendship. I did meet my wife and have a lot of fun adventures though.

Try it for a few months and you’ll likely realize that you are the common theme in your problems. It’ll be a very enjoyable time nonetheless.

> Most people can't do it, and get weird about it.

What? Definitely not my experience.

> Its very expensive or you need to luck into a certain life style.

Travel does not need to be expensive. Hostels are cheap. If you volunteer, you can even stay for free. Also many regions of the world are inexpensive.

> No one is interested in seeing travel pics or talking about places ime.

Again, not sure what kind of people you're meeting, but I haven't found that to be the case. Then again I've been traveling the last 4 years, so the type of people I meet tend to have the same interests.

Sure when I will travel I meet people interested in travel. I've gotten some cool info for futures trips from people. When I get back home, no one really cares. They're busy being broke or working high stress jobs. 40% of Americans never left the country. Of that how many do you think are just going on a cruise or a carribean resort?

I'm pretty sure you live in a bubble. None of my friends are taking more then a trip a year.

Hostels and volunteering are not for everyone. A vacation that is hard when life is hard is not appealing.

Many Americans never leave the country because the US is already pretty vast. Put Texas on a map of Europe and traveling mostly straight (with some slight detours) from the north tip to the south tip can take you through the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, France, Germany, Switzerland, and Italy[1].

There's also oceans or large distances separating it from most other countries so going anywhere besides the Caribbean islands or Canada/Mexico is going to require an often not very cheap plane flight (probably $400/person at a minimum, likely more, and roughly 2.5x that if you're wanting to go to Asia/Australia).

Also, only about 37% of Americans have passports[2], and you can go on cruises without a passport (and used to be able to go to Canada/Mexico without one, but that's changed in the last decade), and the process can take 2-3 months and $165 in fees by itself (I just checked, I'm one of those people that still haven't gotten a passport yet...would have if the pandemic didn't happen in 2020, we were planning a trip to Canada that year), so that's a bit of a deterrent as well.

[1]: https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/how-big-is-texas... [2]: https://today.yougov.com/topics/travel/articles-reports/2021...

Everyone lives in their own bubble. Sounds like your bubble consists of people who are either too broke for travel, more focused on their high-stress jobs, or just lack interest in travel.

I'd imagine most people here working well-paying jobs in tech living in cities like NYC/SF probably go on more than one vacation per year. In Europe, people get 1-3+ months of vacation, and it's very cheap to travel within Europe.

It's pretty sad if one doesn't spend more than 2+ weeks per year on vacation, unless one really enjoys their work that much, which I imagine probably is not the case for most employees.

It’s just a way to have sex with foreign women. I don’t know why people aren’t just honest about it.

> the pandemic delayed the plans

Don't listen to yourself. I left for Mexico 4 months into the pandemic. Thailand is open, Philippines apparently just opened, Indonesia lets you in with a visa. Do it and don't look back. Pick a country where you can stay 6+ months if you've never traveled before. Find a good DN destination on dedicated websites, not every DN is a developer so you might meet new people just by hanging out there. Open Tinder in these new areas and start meeting people without expectations, you'll have fun.

Being well paid and able to work remotely opens up ridiculous opportunities, don't let them slip. Find some nice cafes (or even a Starbucks) and work there every day, don't stay at home ever.

- an ugly asocial DN in his 30s with out-of-my-league tastes that are sometimes fulfilled. Sent from Java, the island.

> don't stay at home ever

great advice. I think I'm gonna move to a city or some random island and try this

Hey a note on travelling. I met (via reddit chat) a guy who seemed quite depressed to me. He is a nomad who got out of the US 10+ years ago and has lived in several countries. I met him because he was having a rough time in my country and I thought I could help him. However after talking a bit with him it was evident that the problem was himself and not the places he had been (he basically whined about how he had been mistreated at every country he had been. He is some kind of remote web dev nomad).

The point is, you have to be good with yourself before you "escape" to a different country. Otherwise you may only find more trouble in a different language.

Work on yourself first, buddy. Learn to be happy, then people will naturally enter your life and stick around.

This is the right advice, but it's worth noting how hard this is when you're doing the software dev grind, unless you're one of those people discussed in other threads recently who manages to settle in at a company where they don't really expect much more than 2-3 hours of work per day (not judging, I miss this kind of work)

Working on yourself is a more-than-full-time job, and it can take years of work for someone who's developed so much self-loathing. Hobbies are for people who aren't constantly busy with other obligations. And if you're working in solitude in software full-time, you're going to have a hard time finding a hobby that you can just get laser-focused on, not to mention time for exercise if your hobby isn't athletic.

That's how it worked in the past! That's what I want to achieve. But there are no people who could enter, at least not in this isolated job.

Work is a terrible place to make friends. The incentives are all stacked against it. People at work are competitive, fearful, distrusting, political, formal, reserved, with worksonas turned up to the max. When people leave the company, the majority of the time the reason for the relationship has ceased. Try to bring people into your life through just about any other activity and you will have better results.

My former roommate who works at LinkedIn spends a lot of time hanging out with friends from work. They do things together multiple times a week. Maybe you should try getting a FAANG job and moving to SF/LA/NYC?

Also, my impression of NYC, more so than any other place I've lived, is that there is a general rejection of the idea that your lifestyle is supposed to change when you're 30.

Have you watched Harold and Maude? I'm not sure what you're expecting friendship to look like and how much you're expecting to get out of it, but maybe try to lower your expectations of others. Think about what you can do for other people, and less about what you need from someone else.

Telling people to just "be happy" is not constructive advice. If it was that easy everyone would do it.

You have to learn to like yourself before others will though, having a deep sense of self loathing, even self consciously, will put people off of you, you emanate a deep proverbial psychological stink - and it turns people away.

I think that's true, its just not helpful advice.

Simply "chosing" to be happy is like simply "chosing" to be a milioniare.

You can choose to work and save and get a little richer every day. The mentality you describe is actually the most dangerous hurdle I found on the path to happiness.

It wont make you any happier, but its the first step down that road.

This. Sorry, I can't give the secret to happiness, but I can tell you to stop looking in places where you won't find it. One of those places is expecting others to give it to you when you have none to give back.

That might be a step further than is necessary. I don’t think you have to like yourself, and it’s much easier to like yourself if someone else likes you first.

However, I do agree that you need to get past self-loathing to at least self-acceptance of some kind. Mostly because self-loathing means putting your attention on yourself, and that is what makes it hard to connect with other people.

It’s ok to not have a high opinion of yourself as long as you don’t place too much importance on it, and are on with yourself.

tolerate then.

You have you not actively dislike yourself.

Agreed - it’s the active part that matters.

People aren't supposed to be happy when they're isolated -- and being happy doesn't naturally end isolation. That's absurd, and a victim-blaming mentality. (Not to imply OP is a victim.)

The isolation is because we're an atomized society. Humans are psychologically supposed to exist in stable tribes. These have been shrunk down to nuclear families in modern life.

It won't magically end his isolation, no. But, it will create an environment that is conducive to ending it. You run into opportunities every day, and it's up to you to take advantage of them, or immediately drown them in negativity.

Being happy doesn't create an environment.

You're just making a lot of assumptions that conveniently allow you to dismiss and deny the reality of the situation.

Sorry you're taking it as dismissal and denial. It's not meant that way.

I realize there's a problem. I also realize nothing I can say will solve that problem. It's up to tenonyx to solve it. I'm not trying to solve, just trying to help show a perspective on it that one might not immediately see. Because I've been there, too.

> I'm afraid though, that it'll only lead me to meeting more and more developers

Digital nomadism wouldn't do that in my experience; have done that in Bali, HK, SG, Thai, for a while in China when it was more open etc; I met tons of people and while a few said they were programmers, they were not actually programmers (0 experience, bit of html); most were people (of all races/sexes/ages) that were 'doing their own startup' (99%+ horrible ideas; I have been a tech advisor in a few incubators and these would not pass anywhere, but that's not the point) or writing their first book. But they were mostly there for the freedom; the startup/book thing is more of an excuse to be on nice beaches, forest hikes etc. So it's very social.

The coworking places I found there also had close to 0 devs in them; worse, they all wanted me to 'jump in' (I did a few times which was not smart in hindsight).

Many of these people are actively social, attractive and easy to meet up with for drinks, food, sports, walks, etc etc. And then maybe your new startup so you can do that forever.

I had to leave at the start of covid because my income source was at risk and I would have been leaving in 2020 anyway, but as far as I can tell the majority of people I knew working remotely in Bali are still there or if not have just moved on to somewhere new and exciting.

In general young fun people have done their best to keep having fun despite anti covid restrictions, with the boring, depressed inside loners being the ones demanding everyone stay boring and depressed inside. You're going to find it hard to fit in with people different from you if you're going to be coming to them with values that go against their existence.

Developers were a minority. Hell, people with jobs were a minority.

I was going to comment that it didn't sound like you liked yourself much, but you admit as much which is really hard to do. Kudos. Been there, done that. I also noticed when not liking yourself, you tend to even take it out on other people...which may explain that comment somewhat.

My advice is generic but important... you've -got- to like yourself. If you see nothing in yourself, it's like... contagious, and people won't either. I'd wager like 75% of being approachable and likable is confidence.

In short, figure out what you can do self improvement wise to really like yourself first, to gain confidence, then move on to the other stuff people are mentioning.

I echo those suggesting working on yourself. Maybe therapy might be a good option?

I went through a good three years in NYC where I was completely alone, isolated. I tried to branch out, but nothing really stuck until I lucked on a group of friends who I’ve had now for over 5 years.

Sometimes you have to have patience and be content with waiting. The harder you force it, the slower it will come. Sometimes you have to wait years, life does not move on your schedule. In the meantime, you can control working on yourself.

Join a gym that has group exercise classes, like Orange Theory. You’ll find a new friend group, and unless you’re in the Bay Area, they’re unlikely to all be programmers. Plus exercise is always good for your well being.

First step to meeting interesting people is to become interesting yourself. I know this is the crux of the post, but it's true.

Become really good at something, make some younger party friends. Meet people through venues not designed around meeting people. Sports e.g. .

Digital nomads are I've met are only about 5% devs in my experience. A lot of would be digital influencers and marketers. I rather liked Canggu Bali pre pandemic though I think it's still mostly closed at the moment. Pretty people/buildings/scenery. Maybe a bit shallow.

I’m in Thailand in the wintertime and for me it’s hard to find other devs that really code/architect medium to big sized software. I guess you can find Wordpress/Web-Devs everywhere though.

> I really don't like myself right now :)

This seems like the actual issue you should be addressing.

Why should people unlike you like people like you?

> you can't treat depression by hanging out with other depressed people

I disagree, a sense of shared suffering can be really helpful in building close and meaningful friendships. Connecting with another miserable person who understood what I was going through - and plotting with them about what each of us could do to try to change things - was one of the key things in getting me through one of the most depressed periods of my life.

> Meetups in my area were also only tech-related.

No book clubs or discussion groups or political action or volunteer groups? Maybe you need to move; there should be a lot more than tech going on in any decent-sized city. Even if it's such a tech-focused area that lots of the attendees happen to work in tech, you'll see other facets of them at those events; people have passions outside of their careers.

Not sure why this is downvoted. It is well documented that the most demanding activities lead to the strongest and most enduring relationships. War is the most extreme obvious example, but at college students who participate in demanding sports or band or those competitive business groups have far richer social lives in general than those who join casual clubs. In adulthood careers like medicine where people do gruelling shift work together results in again in more enduring and close bonds than in your usual 9 to 5.

It is perhaps an inconvenient truth but share suffering and struggle is the "secret" here. Why do you think childhood friendships are generally the closest ones a person will have? In part because of the intense earnest struggle to figure things out. Which is what brings people together far more effectively than shared happiness or some vague feeling of social dissatisfaction.

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