Hacker News Reader

Hacker News

Comment by throwawayt215 | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

throwawayt215

Well, here you go:

"Tesla ranks almost dead-last on Consumer Reports reliability list" - Nov 2021

https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-...

HN discussion:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29273140

Another test from Belgium from a few weeks ago where Tesla came last:

https://www.test-aankoop.be/mobiliteit/auto-s/nieuws/enquete...

Translation of title and adjacent:

"Tesla is the least reliable car brand. Owners of a Tesla report problems with their car more often than drivers of other brands. Those looking to take advantage of salon conditions in the coming weeks had better grab our ranking of most reliable car brands."

So it's TÜV, Consumer Reports and Test Aankoop where Tesla scores poorly, and they are all very recent.

Edit: "Test Aankoop is an association that informs, defends and represents consumers in Belgium. We work in complete independence, financially, politically and ideologically." - translated

View on HN

And for the Dutch TÜV (Consumentenbond) Tesla also ranks last. The only brand that scores under the usual “pass” rate at 5,5/10

https://www.consumentenbond.nl/test/auto-fiets-reizen/automa...

The graph of Test Aankoop also gives numbers on overall owner hapiness. Even while being last in terms of reliability, it scores 2nd in terms of overall hapiness (right after Porsche). So it must not be that bad, right?

As far as I know Porsche is not bought because of reliability. At least I never heard anyone saying that :)

They are potentially. If your "problem" is to decide between a Ferrari and a Porsche, you might go for Porsche because of reliability.

Great if it works, but likely not to work.

To me that suggests Tesla makes a cars for people who don't need a car, just want one.

Scratch a little deeper into the reasons CR gave it a low ranking. Panel alignment and HVAC system problems.

Both of those things are pretty fixable after purchase and are (generally speaking) one and done problems.

Are you talking about all Teslas or some particular model? I am looking into the current Model X and it seems to have more problems than HVAC and panel alignment. Even the most reliable in their ratings Model 3 has dings for "body integrity" (which apparently stands for squeaks, rattles, wind noise and broken seals), "body hardware" (latches, locks, power windows etc) and "power equipment" (all small moving and illuminating stuff, probably wipers in this case) on top of the "paint/trim" and HVAC you mentioned (unless you meant panel alignment to be the body integrity issue then you get paint/trim issues).

Not sure how you can claim likely. “Potentially” may be more apt.

It's always an 'on balance' determination vis a vie what owners care about.

Yes, not everything fits right in my 2018 Model 3. The right headlight is not flush with the hood. You can hear that the windows aren't secured when rolled down and you close the door.

Everything else is brilliant. 95k miles in, I've had zero drive train or mechanical issues. Three sets of tires and an underbody shield that tore when I hit 6" of standing water at 70mph. Conversely, the punch when you hit the accelerator is exhilarating, takes curves flat and fast, the sound system is excellent, it's so quiet, I can drive for hours without physical discomfort, the seat material is durable and doesn't scuff or fade.

I drove a 328i for 20 years that I loved dearly. I haven't given it a 2nd thought since buying the Tesla.

As a fellow 2018 Model 3 owner (70k miles), I concur.

If you look at the reasons CR gave them a low score, it's fit and finish + the HVAC system (which have seen some pretty drastic changes since our vehicles in 2018).

My experience, brand new the condenser pump was too close to the frame (causing a knocking sound). A mobile tech came out, added a rubber pad, and it's been perfect ever since.

When I read the consumer report article listing panel alignment as a reliability issue, I'm suspect. I'm not trying to ignore the fact that it's pretty terrible for tesla to pay so little attention to these things, especially at the price, at at the same time the issues these cars have are generally both cheap/free to repair (especially since they are often caught at the point of sale) and then done for the life of the car.

Side note: My prior car, a ford edge, was WAY worse in reliability towards it's EOL (130k). By the time it got there, the fan belt had cut through the brake line (Um, wtf?), the brake master cylinder had sprung a leak, the alternator went out, the battery died, and the transmission was on it's way out, the HVAC failed and the compressor needed to be replaced. All fairly spendy repairs from regular operations. That's not to mention the regular oil/fluid changes, brake changes, and new tires.

Have you tried test driving some recent electric cars by other big car manufacturers?

No, but I'd like to. Which do you suggest?

Hyundai IONIQ 5, VW ID3. The fit and finish are from another world compared to a Tesla. And they're probably more reliable too, but time will tell.

Hyundai IONIQ 5

Volkswagen ID.3 and ID.4

Ford Mustang Mach-E

I wouldn't assume happiness correlates with reliability.

So do you assume that people whose car breaks down often are as happy with the car as the people whose car doesn't break down often?

Sure, could be. I could imagine that as cars get more expensive, "happiness" with a car comes more from the satisfaction of owning a luxurious car and less from its reliability. I would imagine that someone who owns a Lamborghini is happy about it, but they are anything but reliable. On the flip side, reliability is kind of the point when you buy a Toyota.

> So it must not be that bad, right?

Not really. Could be the case that if you're in the 90ish percent that has no problems, you love your car, but if you're in the 10% bucket you're screwed.

Similar analogy: I love JetBlue, when there aren't any problems. Wider seat pitch, better entertainment system, good value. When there are problems though, it's a nightmare. Once my flight was cancelled due to "weather" (mind you it was a beautiful sunny day, and I counted one other cancelled flight on the entire airport departure board). JetBlue said they could get me on a flight 3 days later, and gave 0 assistance getting on another airline because they don't have any of the "peering" relationships other airlines have. All they did was refund my money the day of, and no compensation because it was for "weather".

This jives generally with what I've heard about Teslas: people fanatically love the cars, except when autopilot steers you into a truck or a concrete divider.

>This jives generally with what I've heard about Teslas: people fanatically love the cars, except when autopilot steers you into a truck or a concrete divider.

Now that's what I call "survivor bias."

Probably the halo effect of ‘doing good’ by driving an EV. It’s like when people choose to use the bank with a less slick app, website, local offices etc but that does ethical banking. The service is objectively worse, but those users probably rate their overal happiness with the bank very high.

The driving experience in an EV is objectively better, on the whole, than a gas car. The climate factor doesn't weigh into the driving experience. It's the instant torque, the always-full-in-the-morning home charging, the lack of smell and noise, the easy maintenance, and (in the case of Tesla) the in-car computing environment.

It's not about the "smug" or "halo" factor. If it were, why would so many people be lining up to buy the electric F-150?

How many orders of magnitude more people are buying gas F-150s?

Looks like about 5X (half an order of magnitude) in Ford's forecasting:

150,000 production target electric ~750,000 sales F-series 2021

That ‘objectively better driving experience’ rates almost dead last in reliability. Charging can be a negative as well, if your ‘tank’ is nearly empty it’s a 2 minute top-up with gas but a 30-60 minute wait with a BEV. You are not allowed to do maintenance on your Tesla, everything is locked down.

You are literally the “smug” you are protesting. And I say all these things as a guy that wants all cars to become BEV as soon as possible (well, I’d rather have public transit be prioritized, but people are egotistical and shitty).

The point is that people aren't buying EVs because of feel-good environmental sentiment. They are buying them because the cars fit well into their lifestyle.

Apologies if I came off as smug!

It certainly seems to be the case that reliability isn't that bad for the typical owner. Of course, if more people than the initial enthusiastic buyers start driving Teslas, the satisfaction might decline.

FWIW, I did a quick calculation and satisfaction and reliability aren't really correlated (coefficient of 0.17). Fiddling with a few other models didn't find much more of a connection.

Tesla is sort of the real world version of that old "why don't we build cars like we build computers" joke from the 90s.

> "Tesla ranks almost dead-last on Consumer Reports reliability list"

I find this laughable. We're on our 3rd Tesla and we've never had anything even hinting of a reliability issue/getting stranded. There is absolutely no maintenance outside of consumables, which is really just tires, as the brake pads last the life of the car if you drive it as it's meant to be driven (regen); maybe windshield washer fluid? There've been a small number of minor things, like a seat belt tensioner on one of the three started rattling. They came and fixed it in my garage. 12V battery was on its way out on our oldest Tesla, car gave a message ahead of it dying (so, proactively avoided leaving us stranded by using software to interpret collected measurements), Tesla came and replaced it in my garage in 10 min for free. New cars are supposed to get Li-Ion 12V batteries soon standard, so the company is purposefully improving reliability. (Note: yes, Teslas have a 12V battery for auxiliary/emergency power, i.e. in case you run the EV battery all the way down you can still operate door locks etc).

Just doesn't add up calling cars that are known to intrinsically be super low maintenance and have much lower part count/complexity unreliable. Everyone I know who drives a Tesla has the same experience: zero maintenance, replace tires every 30-40k miles or when you get a flat and that's pretty much it. One of the main reasons I highly prefer EVs is because of reliability and lack of maintenance. Something seems fishy here.

The suspension arm of my colleague’s Tesla broke. He showed me the broken part. It was something that should never break.

My other colleague’s Tesla had multiple major issues, including one that requires an engine to be replaced.

They both still bought a new Tesla after that, and so did I, because they’re just so fun to drive, but your anecdotal evidence doesn’t disprove a fact about a 10% failure rate.

I imagine you mean motor instead of "engine".

My Tesla disagrees with your Tesla.

Also, when something breaks, you have to put up with Tesla’s abysmal service and the black hole that is their customer support.

You're already on your 3rd Tesla in 10 years?

Besides that, it's still anecdotal. There's a whole array of issues with Tesla's Quality.

Now that they got some competition in the top segment they dropped to only 25,000 Tesla S/Y delivered last year. They need to seriously improve their quality control if they don't want to be wiped out in the mid segment too.

So California expires car pool stickers that let you use the hov lane after 4 years. The only way you can get a new one is to buy a new car. (I believe they are phasing the program out). It probably explains why the commenter has 3 in 10 years.

The internet is to create a robust market for electric cars. The complaint is that it favors rich consumers.

Perhaps driving 155mph or up to 200mph (max speeds of the various Model S) as it is possible in Germany puts another level of stress on the suspension and they start to fail prematurely. Maintenance is not the same as reliability. So not laughable at all.

As far as I know, no one has driven anywhere close to 200 mph in a Tesla.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38453459/tesla-model-s-pl...

Thank you for the information, I was just looking up the max speeds in Wikipedia.

Fun bit of history: When Buell started selling their motorbikes in Germany, the motorcycles didn’t survive being driven large stretches on the autobahn - which lead to the famous recall party in Oschersleben where some of the factory team flew in from the US to fix and upgrade Buell motorcycles.

Where do you live? I have the suspicion that the experiences vary mostly by region, where the bay area and other big american areas have relatively good service, but other areas are considerably worse.

> I find this laughable. We're on our 3rd Tesla...

Maybe if you didn't treat your vehicles as disposables you'd experience more of the wear and reliability problems?

You're on your 3rd Tesla? My parents still have their 2001 Camry and I still have my 2006 Corolla.

3rd Tesla in what, 10 years? is nothing to brag about...actually - to use your words, I find this laughable that somehow you think you've pushed your Teslas enough to see any hint of reliability issues.

It could be that the lack of maintenance is the issue. When I take my car to the dealer for an oil change it goes on a lift and gets looked over by a mechanic (I get a video of this, so this is how I know). Tesla it not a magic carpet, it has the same suspension, brakes, tires etc. as a normal car. How often a regular Tesla gets lifted and its undercarriage is looked over? Perhaps not as often as every 10K miles when an oil change happens on my car?

And a Lithium 12V battery is not more reliable than a regular acid-lead. You can get an aftermarket one for any ICE car and some come with it as standard. It's only good in a warm climate though because in cold weather it will lose charge quickly unlike an acid-lead.

Once you say Consumer Reports, you throw all credibility out the window. I read some of their "reports" sometimes in my fields of expertise. Basically they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. Being biased is one thing, incompetency is another.

Say more?

careful, "reliability" can mean a lot of things - having interior trim issues is not the same as DPF problems or ABS lockup

They are not considered equally serious. Engine, transmission and drive system problems have more weight than something like broken trim.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com