Then where the fuck are they? Because Tesla's right here. I've had two Teslas in my garage for the past five years. About once a month I take a look at the latest EVs coming out, looking for something that compares to what Tesla is offers. Fucking nothing. Slow acceleration, dated infotainment, slow charging, shitty range, ugly as fuck, or have never shipped a car at volume. Often a combination of several of these.
I'm a simple man. I want something that goes fast, charges fast, has a big battery and looks cool. Nobody has all of these except Tesla, because those other companies are run by old fucks who think pumping out the same car with marginally different styling, a computer from 2005 and the rechargeable battery from the RC car I got for Christmas in 6th grade is what people want. Or maybe that's all they can muster, I don't know, but the bottom line is that everyone else's EVs suck ass.
I'm not a Tesla cheerleader. I hope the legacy carmakers get their act together. But I'm not hopeful. I've been disappointed too many times by these bullshit "concept" cars they trot out at car shows and then implement precisely none of the things that made that concept cool.
As for the quality issues? I have two Teslas in my garage. I'm rich. When one is in the shop, I just drive the other. It's not that hard.
You demand a lot more than I do (which is basically cheap and low maintenance. I dont care about cupholders, infotainment, beauty, acceleration or even finish really). Then there are plenty of options. Around here, Tesla is not a popular option for electric, so I guess I'm not alone.
FWIW I find Tesla’s all-touch infotainment and climate control awful to use. I think there are many like me, who prefer dedicated buttons and knobs for common functions.
Basically, I’ll believe it when you see it. Right now the BEV market is basically Tesla or sacrifices.
In the NYC area, 200-300mi trips in the Tesla have evolved quickly with a BEV-
* 2018 - OK there's one route to go on this journey that has charger, I've topped us up to 90% before we go, so don't miss the turn & everyone time your bladder to this one stop
* 2019 - Alright we are at 90% and there's a couple places we can charge along the way, as long as we take routes A or B.. and the backup charger on route B might be 10mi off the highway driving through some backroads at night in rural NJ
* 2020 - Oh cool they added chargers to a couple more of those NJTP/I95 rest stops
* 2021 - OK there are chargers at basically all the NJTP/I95 rest stops I used to stop for gas
* 2022 - It's winter & the battery is above 50%, we'll pass 2 chargers on the way to/from regardless of which route we go .. so we'll charge whenever is convenient to someone needing to stop for drink or bathroom
So living in 2022 with a Tesla charging network, it's hard for me to imagine going back to my 2018 style of driving with the very attractive MachE / Polestar2 / Taycan / Ioniq 5 / etc.
Nissan - ex-CEO is an international fugitive.
Audi - ex-CEO in jail for dieselgate.
Volkswagen - the whole dieselgate cheating scandal
Volkswagen - Diess barely escaped criminal prosecution for not disclosing diselgate early enough
Ford - a new CEO every month
All German car makers - found to fix prices and delay innovation (related to, but not the same as dieselgate)
UAW (representing car workers in US) - a giant corruption scandal, bribed by FCA and embezzling funds, 16 people in jail
Toyota and Stellantis : both CEO currently peddling lies about how transition to EVs will destroy the economy and kill electric grid
GM - Mary Bara lies, on TV, multiple times, about GM being an EV leader, despite GM delivering 26 cars in Q4
But sure, it's Elon's "erratic" behavior that is a problem.
The 226 mile version is significantly better, but that’s all they offer.
I assume that Tesla is not the only maker having problems with those autopilot features.
Just this year between recalls & battery delays in new product rollouts, GM shipped something like 400 (not 400K, literally 400) BEVs in Q4. Ford is targeting to ship ~300K BEVs in 2023 which is only an aspiration and would bring them to 2018-2019 Tesla volumes. With the doubling of Tesla production rates annually and new factories about to open, Tesla could be at 2M/year by 2023.
I wouldn't mind some other makers at least coming closer so I can make my 2nd vehicle a non-Tesla BEV. Tesla is fun but it's a very opinionated car (like Apple) with design choices that cannot be optioned away (yoke, falcon wing doors, gear stalk removal, touch screen UI dependence, etc).
Re: production quality It shouldn't be a huge surprised that ~2018 era Teslas are doing poorly on inspections now. Watch Munro tear downs and the evolution of the build quality over time has gone from early 90s Hyundai to actually impressing him.
Right now, you can find EV for every price tag and since a Tesla gets you the quality of a cheap one for the price of a high end one, its main value is as a status symbol.
You don't seem to be familiar with how long it takes to ramp up production of a 10000+ component product, based on a ground up design in just about every aspect.
Tesla, founded 20 years ago, sold 1 million vehicles in 2021, that's half of what Mercedes, a century old company sold in the same period.
> its main value is as a status symbol.
Go have a free test drive in one. And then in some other "cheap ones". All I have to say.
You've completely missed the point. For the past decade the market for EV was just not there.
Tesla accounts for less than 25% of the EV sold this year, which is a clear indication that the amount of EV sold wasn't limited by Tesla's production abilities.
> Go have a free test drive in one. And then in some other "cheap ones". All I have to say.
Have you ever driven a German car? The Tesla is a typical American car, less comfortable and less reliable than it should be for the price tag. No wonder why Germans and Japanese took over the US market for ICE cars years ago.
Tesla has the first mover advantage and the status symbol (“like Apple but for cars”).
Then please explain to me why Tesla, during the past decade being one of the few BEV manufacturers has always been limited by production only, despite never ever advertising in its entire history?
> Tesla accounts for less than 25% of the EV sold this year, which is a clear indication that the amount of EV sold wasn't limited by Tesla's production abilities.
You're clueless. Try buying a Tesla right now, or for the past year. Go ahead. Try putting an order in and see when you it gets delivered to you and tell me if that's because they love their cars so much, they don't want to part ways with them or it's because they can't keep up with demand.
> Have you ever driven a German car?
I have driven more cars than I care to count. Ask me how Tesla is better than all of them in all the ways that matters.
> The Tesla is a typical American car, less comfortable and less reliable than it should be for the price tag.
And yet the demand for it so high, you have to wait a year to get one. Looks like comfort isn't the only thing that sells cars.
> No wonder why Germans and Japanese took over the US market for ICE cars years ago.
Sun never set on British empire once too. So what?
> Tesla has the first mover advantage.
What, like Apple did with iPhone?
> status symbol (“like Apple but for cars”).
Ye, whatever you say.
For this part I'll just borrow a quote from you:
> You don't seem to be familiar with how long it takes to ramp up production of a 10000+ component product, based on a ground up design in just about every aspect.
Tesla has been severely limited by their ability to industrialize the way they wanted, but you're still completely off-topic: nobody has “flooded the market” with electric car in the meantime, because the market barely existed during that period. Now the market is here, and everybody benefits it (and Tesla is just taking a share of that market).
> despite never ever advertising in its entire history?
Regular advertising with TV ads and so on, right. But they have been running a multi-billion influencer marketing with Elon doing random stuff (building a tiny submarine to help children stuck in caves, pumping and dumping bitcoin, then memecoins, etc.)
How can you say they never ran adverting when we're talking about the company that sent a car TO SPACE!? Come on.
> You're clueless.[…]
No, but you should try reading what I write maybe.
> Ask me how Tesla is better than all of them in all the ways that matter
That's pretty typical of a cult. I've never had a single car that “was better than every other before in all aspects” (even when going from Volkswagen to Mercedes) just because it's not how it works.
> And yet the demand for it so high, you have to wait a year to get one. Looks like comfort isn't the only thing that sells cars.
Yes, the status symbol is a enormous part of why people buy luxury car. But keep thinking it doesn't exist and Tesla is just making the best car ever and just cry about injustice when all durability reviews complain that Tesla produces brittle cars.
> What, like Apple did with iPhone?
Yes, also like BlackBerry and Yahoo!
Ford is leading the charge with their F150 and mustang, both highly desirable and mainstream. The mustang is on the roads now, the F150 will be in a quarter.
Kia and Hyundai are on the cusp with their common EV platform that the Ioniq 5 and EV6 are built on. The 5 is out, the 6 is out in Europe.
Volvo is also pushing in fairly strongly, both internally and with their Polestar subsidiary.
Volkswagen has the ID4 on the roads.
Long story short, I am in the market and there are a lot more options than Tesla and many are established brands with far better manufacturing than Tesla.
Toyota bZ4X / Subaru Solterra
Lexus RZ
The Elon Musk / Tesla / Bitcoin thing I don't understand. Anytime there is a link on HN about these, I know it's going to be a "See, I told you so" type of link where they try to justify their hate.
Perhaps it's because Elon Musk is the best "startup" guy and there is jealousy? I don't know. It doesn't make much sense to me.
I wouldn't put JS in the same category.
Now when someone achieves real self driving its likely there will be one company a few years ahead and then a small handful. Those companies should make serious dollars as they will dominate the market. Once a car can drive itself it will take a little bit to earn trust but my guess is across the modern world no-one will be buying the manual versions for long (assuming safety record beats humans).
From this I could see a handful of companies dominate the market over a fairly short time cycle. Kinda like an OS enviroment where you have 2 or 3 players only and its near impossible for anyone else to survive or enter the market now.
I dont know if that view is correct, but if so, Tesla is probably one of the better placed car companies for that possible future outcome if you were looking to invest for the future value. That to me seems to be were a large part of the value comes from.
Companies with visible, bold, charismatic leaders tend to bring a disproportionate amount of attention and hype to a stock.
If that CEO can paint an 'Unlimited Future' because they are doing something new, in a big market, the stock takes on some odd characteristics.
People become 'believes' as much as investors, more so among small retail investors who can collectively drive the stock up.
Your point about 'Self Driving' is reasonable, but I don't think a 'few years advantage' is going to help the winners.
Why? Because 'Self Driving' will be phased in over decades. It's not going to 'turn on'.
There might be some shakeup, but it seems at least one German, Japanese and American auto maker will have the wherewithal to 'keep up' to norms.
Most importantly, in the long run, people are price sensitive and for cars they care about brand to the extent it's related to quality. Late stage buyers are of a different mindset than early stage aspirational Tesla owners.
As far as this 10% failure rate, it's hard to say - Tesla has good brand positioning, but a constant stream of these headlines won't bode well for them.
Outside of American, Nationalism is 'normal' but it's generally not of the flag-waiving kind, it's more basic ethnocentrism. Germans take their cars very seriously and I wonder if after a stage of Tesla fertilization, they return to their 'Superior German Technology'.
That is completely false. Have you actually looked at the annalists who cover Tesla? Every single one includes a huge amount of completion coming online.
Have ever even looked at those models? Can you sight what models you are basing your 'analysis' on and can you explain what they are getting wrong.
> The fact is that the market will soon be flooded with excellent electric cars from Toyota, Mercedes, BMW and more.
'flooded' is a nice and vague and meaningless concept. We actually have a understanding of how much lithium there is and will be for the next few years. The ramp up continues to follow typical trends.
You wont magically have a 15x increase in EV sales, no matter if every OEM announces 500 new models over the next 5 years.
People predicted the same thing literally every year since 2016. I remember last year, people were all about how VW is gone leave Tesla in the dust and how VW can just spit out millions of EV. Because they know how to make cars and Tesla doesn't.
But even VW, it actually took quite a few years and huge investment are still around 450k BEV globally. Tesla added around 450k BEV this year.
All those companies you mention will fact the same issues that VW did. They want magically just 5x their BEV production in a year. Its just not in the cards (unless maybe you are starting from a tiny base of a few cars like Toyota) if you understand the battery and battery materials industry.
Your analysis also contradicts even the CEO of VW who said that catching Tesla in BEV sales by 2025 will be very difficult for them. And VW is a few years into this, Toyota has barley even started.
> And this is in the year 2022. It's only going to get worse and worse from here on out, as the big companies bring their whole networks to bear. Even
Yeah so bad for Tesla that they are gone make all the profits from car servicing and that they can gain all the profits from raising prices rather then the dealers absorbing that margin. I sure Tesla hates that.
> The preponderance of evidence favors the idea that Tesla will shrink and the other companies will grow, in the electric market.
Please show some of that evidence. Because the actual real existing evidence is that Tesla has been growing incredibly fast. Tesla own guidance, expectation by analysts and various demand estimations is that Tesla will continue to grow at similar speeds in 2022.
Tesla has 2 new huge factories coming online right now. So in your estimation despite 2 new production facilities they will sell less cars in the future? When will this happen in your opinion. Please tell me how many cars you assume they will produce in 2023 and then you can honestly go back an check if you were right.
How accurate were your predictions about Tesla over the last 5 years? Did you expect them to grow as they did? If not, have you changed any of your opinions?
You're not in the know, I take it.
> The fact is that the market will soon be flooded with excellent electric cars from Toyota, Mercedes, BMW and more.
Haha - let's see:
Toyota "aims to achieve global sales of 3.5 million battery EVs per year by 2030" [1].
Mercedes plans to sell >20% battery EVs (BEVs) by 2030. That's 400K vehicles a year [2].
BMW plans to deliver ~2 million BEVs by 2025 [3].
Tesla delivered short of 1 million cars in 2021. It delivered 100% more cars compared to 2020 during a global chip shortage. It expects to, at minimum, increase production and deliveries by 50% in 2022, ONLY from existing Fremont and Giga Shanghai. It has two brand new Giga factories in Austen and Berlin that have just started production and will ramp up this year.
Even at conservative 50% year over year production increase, by 2025, Tesla will be producing equal number of BEVs to all the above manufacturers's "plans" of 2025 to 2030s combined. Yes my friend, for all practical purposes for the next decade, Tesla is not going to face competition in vehicle production, even completely ignoring Tesla's profit margins.
Wait there's more, much more:
Fast charging network: when time comes to purchase a non-Tesla EV with their poor range, you'll think twice. Not to mention that percentage of actually working non-Tesla fast charger stations is significantly lower than Tesla's.
Tesla insurance: upfront cost of the car is one among many factors why people choose one over others. When you find out you can pay peanuts for insurance by adjusting your driving habits (for the better), Teslas become much more affordable all of a sudden.
There's of course the whole autonomy thing which will further drive down the total cost of ownership by multiple factors, but I suspect you may be allergic to this topic, so Google it to find out more.
TL;DR Tesla will have serious competition soon provided you live in an alternate universe where pineapples are pink, taste like bubblegum and pigs fly to work, etc.
[1]: https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/36428993.html
[2]: https://youtu.be/FcbIm5mwpA0?t=1040
[3]: https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T036235...