Dutch-Japanese Relations | Hacker News Reader

Dutch-Japanese Relations

netherlandsandyou.nl

61 pointsjez18 comments

This text glances over it but the beginnings of Western-style anatomy might be of interest to hackers:

All the early Japanese surgeons had was a Dutch-language version of an anatomy book, but nobody could read medical Dutch well. The corpse of an executed criminal was used to verify that the accuracy of the drawings in the Dutch book was higher than what the Sino-Japanese teachings of the time were, after which the book was painstakingly translated from Dutch by people who spoke or read little Dutch.

A slightly more detailed story here:

PDF https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1291183/pdf/jrs...

Wikipedia link for those curious:

Rangaku (Kyūjitai: 蘭學/Shinjitai: 蘭学, literally "Dutch learning", and by extension "Western learning") is a body of knowledge developed by Japan through its contacts with the Dutch enclave of Dejima, which allowed Japan to keep abreast of Western technology and medicine in the period when the country was closed to foreigners from 1641 to 1853 because of the Tokugawa shogunate's policy of national isolation (sakoku).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangaku

Also for any Ghost in the Shell fans, I'm fairly certain that the refugee island Dejima is a reference to the Dutch trading post in Nagasaki.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dejima

Often written as 'Deshima' in English, Dutch, etc. when referring to the island during the Tokugawa Shogunate. The modern pronunciation for the area in Nagasaki is Dejima (mostly), but historically it was pronounced Deshima as well, which the Dutch used as the basis for the 'Deshima' (and 'Decima' etc.) romanization.

One of the most interesting aspects to this, I find, is how they set aside their own age-old teachings and beliefs when someone else's proved more accurate. Their willingness and the effort it must have cost to test if it was is already very impressive.

I read Ann Vannetta's The Vaccinators last year, on the first days of Western-style medicine in Japan, and one of my main takeaways was how unusual these doctors were for their time and their culture, often risking political persecution, building a kind of underground network of knowledge.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1440324.The_Vaccinators

This article is great, though it does omit one modern offshoot of this ancient alliance and that is the CD-ROM. Developed in collaboration between Phillips in Eindhoven and Sony in Tokyo. I've heard that the meeting of the two companies is actually related to a state visit between the two countries' monarchs.

Fun fact. the hole of a CD-ROM is exactly the size of a "dubbletje" (10 guldencent). The currency in the Netherlands at the time the CD-ROM was created.

My memory may be hazy, but I thought it was the size of a 'kwartje' (25 cts)

It's also missing the my favorite children's animated series "Alfred J. Kwak" [1]. A Dutch-Japanese collaboration notable for it's exceptionally mature treatment of very difficult topics such as apartheid, environmentalism, inequality, doping in sports, facism, etc.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_J._Kwak

Edit: After seeing the series, Tove Jansen allowed the same Dutch-Japanese crew to animate the Moomins in a Dutch-Japanese-Finish collaboration. [2]

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moomin_(1990_TV_series)

How would I access this page starting from the main country page? (https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/your-country-and-the-nether...)

> to raid and plunder Portuguese and Spanish strongholds along the route in South America and Asia

I guess that has to be South Africa and Asia. South America does not seem logical going from Europe to Asia.

The earth is round

No these ships actually went that way, the text is correct as far as my history teacher told me at least since they wanted to explore that route. I remember since it was weird to me as well. Edit: apperantly Wikipedia agrees with him (in Dutch) https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Liefde_(galjoen)

Due to the trade winds generally blowing east to west, the fastest route to sail from Europe to Japan is indeed via South America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_winds

The prevailing winds and ocean currents in the South Atlantic [1] made it easier for ships going from Europe to the Cape of Good Hope to sail along the South American coast than the African coast. Ships could also reprovision more easily in South America. The Macartney expedition from England to China in the 1790s stopped at Rio de Janiero, as explained in [2].

[1] https://seos-project.eu/oceancurrents/oceancurrents-c02-p03....

[2] https://archive.org/details/authenticaccount01stau/page/142/...

That is exactly how Shogun starts. Blackthorn is out plundering Spanish ships in South America. As their path back to Europe is blocked by Spanish warships they decide to continue west and ends up washing ashore in Japan.

Geweldig/tanoshii: Japan still has a Dutch themepark: https://www.tofugu.com/travel/huis-ten-bosch/

Absolutely fascinating! This article really gives one a sense of 16th and 17th century relations between different European nations (Portuguese vs Dutch) & Japan, and mentions a couple exceptionally interesting folks (links below)

"The military ruler of Japan, Tokugawa Ieyasu, showed great interest in the Dutch ship, especially in the firearms it was carrying. Everything was confiscated and Joosten and Adams were ordered to Osaka and then to Edo, the center of power (present-day Tokyo), to be interrogated through a Portuguese interpreter."

"Their replies luckily proved to the liking of Ieyasu and the survivors were compensated for the losses they suffered in Usuki. Some of them started careers as traders and married local women. Their valuable know-how and understanding of maps, navigation, shipbuilding and warfare made William Adams and Jan Joosten popular with the ruler. It brought them land, money and titles."

..."The ruler had just started his campaign against Christianity due to the over-enthusiastic proselytising of Portuguese Jesuits threatening his authority, and the knowledge of the "red haired barbarians", as the Dutch came to be called, would prove useful. The protestant Dutch, whose first objective was trade and not the propagation of the Christian faith, had arrived and established their credibility just in time."

..."during the `sakoku-jidai`, the so-called seclusion period, Holland and China were the only countries permitted to trade and have limited contacts with Japan. It was a status which actually lasted over two centuries, from 1641 to 1853, and as the only western country with such privileges, Holland held a very special position."

..."A short time before, in 1602, the Dutch had founded the East Indian Company (VOC), the idea behind this being to unite many smaller trading companies into the one powerful organisation which would make it easier to acquire vessels and dominate the trading world. The VOC can be seen as the world's first shareholder company. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adams_(pilot)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Joosten_van_Lodensteijn

Interesting timeline of VOC Dutch East Indies Trading Company https://robertjprince.net/2015/04/14/dutch-east-indies-compa...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com