What? In a point release?
We all knew this was coming, but doing it in a point release seems like exceedingly bad form, particularly as Apple does major releases annually. I never expect point releases to break stuff, at least not on purpose.
We all knew this was coming, but doing it in a point release seems like exceedingly bad form, particularly as Apple does major releases annually. I never expect point releases to break stuff, at least not on purpose.
If they need to do it for a year, it's not that hard.
Public webserver? Unlikely for sure.
Office fileserver? Absolutely.
Build server? Sure.
Now, what is the percentage of that among all MacBooks on latest MacOS out there.
Monthly, for me. Or more often if, like last week, a new customer required it.
If you stop paying attention to the niches, they add up to a lot of people.
It's okay for that stuff to break. (I wish Apple would put more effort than they do into making it break less often, but that's neither here nor there.) But, it should break in a major release, when the user is prepared for things to break. It should not break in an update that was installed automatically overnight.
If a company as 'small' as (pre-IBM) Red Hat can afford to support Python 2.7, then so can Apple:
* https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2018/11/14/python-in-rhel...
* https://access.redhat.com/solutions/4455511
Further, if Debian has the resources to support Python 2.x, then so does multi-trillion dollar company of Apple:
* https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=python2
If they wanted to announce at the June 2022 WWDC that macOS 13 wasn't going to have it, that's fine. But we're several months into macOS 12.x and such a large change is bad form.
How long is long enough to avoid breaking something the users depend on? One more year? Five years? Fifty? I think we can all agree that it's reasonable to drop support at some point, making it just a question of when and at what cost.
They could drop it with v12, or wait for v13, both would be fine. Dropping it in the middle of release cycle what people are objecting to.
10 years - a piece of software compiled with 'supported' libraries, SDKs and what have you should function for 10 years. An appliance or a service should function for 10 years and have spare parts avaliable for that long.
That is the guideline I ise as a consumer, if I can see that something won't last a decade, I won't be spending money or time on it if i can avoid it. At that point it's no longer a durable good, it's a consumable.
I mean I already think it's... interesting that an operating system comes with (multiple) programming language interpreters, available to the end-user.
Apple is pretty aggressive about breaking backwards compatibility, as they did with x86, so it's no real surprise for unmaintained software to become completely unusable.
My company was shipping (somewhat niche) software linking with the built-in python2 up until last year though, and it’s been a scramble since Monterey to rebuild things to avoid the warning message. Definitely thought we would have python2 until 13.0 though (and part of me wonders whether this is just a “brown-out” for the beta and 12.3 release will be back to normal)
Yeah, fuck those end-users who might want to automate things with a script.
I am not to familiar with MacOS, but I imagine it comes with a bash/sh terminal? If so, then that is something that should be first choice for automation.
Everything else, be it python, perl, ruby or whatever should be installed by a user as needed.
Part of it is that it's just a mental burden to keep this kind of compatibility information in my brain. I have VMs set up of past macOS releases in case I need to run something old. I don't have VMs set up for earlier versions of a release, and I don't even know where I'd get an installer. Admittedly, in this case it would just be a matter of installing Python, but I don't necessarily know that as a user, or the software could need to be linked to Cocoa or some such.
But I really did think that since it was in Monterrey, it was going to stick around until at least macOS 13.
NOTE: Debian 11 (bullseye) has removed the "python" package and the '/usr/bin/python' symlink due to the deprecation of Python 2.
* https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/python2
There has been no dropping of support: if you want Python 2.7 you can install in.
Very HN: Business || technical. No concession for "Customer service."
You can't please everyone
macOS is going the same way, except that Apple doesn't have a package manager so it has to be a manual installation.
There is no need for a manual installation.
Just to quote the literal slogan of homebrew:
>The Missing Package Manager for macOS (or Linux)
I think it is fair to say that Apple does in fact not have a package manager. Unless they do bundle homebrew with their OS nowadays?
> Apple doesn't have a package manager so it has to be a manual installation.
The quoted statement is clearly false. To maintain that python has to be installed by hand is incorrect.
Apple the corporation doesn’t have a package manager.
MacOS, the ecosystem does.
No different from Linux. There is no Linux package manager. There are numerous open source package managers for Linux.
macOS the OS has a package manager in terms of a tool to install packages. It does not have the ability to find/download packages to install though.
In the sense of a package manager being able to download and install additional software, macOS has several choices available but none of them are included with the OS, or have the ability to update the OS.
There is arguably no single "Linux ecosystem". There are numerous Linux-based distributions, which are largely comparable to macOS as an OS. One of the very key differences between each family of distro's is the package manager the OS ships with by default and uses to update itself.
So no. macOS does not "have" a package manager that's comparable to those included by default with linux distributions, but there are several third party package managers available for it.
A red herring that is nothing to do with what we are discussing.
> It does not have the ability to find/download packages to install though.
Another false statement. Homebrew is just as capable of searching as any Linux package manager.
I wasn't talking about homebrew.
It helps if you understand the comment before you reply to it and make accusations.
Edit to add, because fuck the HN timeouts. Heaven forbid someone make 6 comments in two fucking hours:
Try reading the whole fucking comment again, with the points being made really hammered home for you:
> macOS the OS has a package manager in terms of a tool to install packages. It does not have the ability to find/download packages to install though.
This is about the built in macOS package manager, that the OS itself uses to install packages. It's invoked via `installer` on the command line, or Installer.app in the GUI. It does not expose the ability to find/fetch packages from remote URLs.
> In the sense of a package manager being able to download and install additional software, macOS has several choices available but none of them are included with the OS, or have the ability to update the OS.
This is referring to homebrew, macports, etc.
We certainly do see things differently, because only one of us is repeatedly calling the other a liar due to poor reading comprehension.
This whole line of conversation is about whether it’s necessary to manually install python.
If you claim it is you are lying, because it can easily be installed via homebrew, and you are clearly aware of that.
If you have some need to claim that homebrew isn’t a MacOS package manager or that MacOS doesn’t “have” homebrew, because Apple doesn’t ship it. Go right ahead, but it’s a red herring.
Is faker.js a macOS vulnerability because there were people using Macs who installed npm and then installed faker.js? This isn't a theoretical question—whenever you install something, you need to consider where it's coming from and whether they can be trusted.
MacOS has homebrew as an open source package manager.
On Debian, packages in the official repositories are considered to be literally part of the Debian project. The maintainers are considered Debian maintainers, and bugs go into the Debian bug tracker.
This matters due to the trust issues I alluded to above. It also means that on Debian, there is one definitive version of Python (or at least one per Python version). The Homebrew, MacPorts, and Python.org Python binaries are all slightly different, such that it's possible for software to work with one but not the other.
However none of this has any relevance to the claim in question, which is that python must be installed manually.
MacOS certainly has a package manager that can install and maintain python.
Brew has a long history of treating any criticism of their truly woeful approach to security, dependency management etc, with "well fuck you we dont want to hear your opinion".
Everyone switched to brew even though it was the most poorly designed because it came from the Rails hype era where everyone wanted all their tools to be written in Ruby and didn’t care about anything else.
This meant if you wanted to install, say, ImageMagick, you would spend one day compiling stuff.
Also contributing a brew recipe was (and probably still is) easier than contributing to macports, and brew casks are pretty convenient.
I deeply dislike some of the choices of homebrew, but I can understand why it was popular, and it wasn't just because of the ruby hype.
Edit: And it hardly came out of the blue. Python 2.7 was 10 years old then and people had known they needed to get off it for years.
Old software isn't inherently more risky.
I'll never understand why people think they can write some software and it'll stay pristine forever. Even if it was had no known bugs at some point in the past, the world is a harsh place and your program, its dependencies, its programming language or even its OS can be found to be subtly broken at any moment. Even if it is not outright buggy, the world will change around you until the interfaces you depend on are no longer there. (looking at you, software program at $WORK that only works with PS/2 keyboards but not USB keyboards)
The combination (old Python, new shared library) could have vulnerabilities that neither (old python, old shared library) nor (new python, new shared library) has.
There is plenty of software being written to very high standards of quality (formally verified real-time control software for rockets/power plants/etc comes to mind), but most of that is not available for free on the internet (or for $5/month as a SAAS) because you get what you pay for.
Even TLA+ analysis and proof of correctness doesn't stop things like "new zookeeper clients are pushing a lot of new writes => disk space needed for logs increases => across all the nodes in the zookeeper cluster => the entire formally correct cluster keeps falling over now but it didn't last week"
I meant more in the sense of the proofs in TAOCP - these are programs that don't interact with anything outside of the program itself, no non-specified input, so a lot simpler, no dates, no actual machine memory, just a little synthetic world defined by the language itself. Even TeX is imagined to be unchanging after Knuth's passing, and is basically unchanged since the 70s.
For sure the world has moved on, but we have lost the ability to have confidence in the software and have had to develop tools and ways of thinking inspired by biology.
The general approach of most projects and vendors at the bottom of the stack to not accept full responsibility for their part is striking. The amount of lying, faking, leaky abstractions, adapting but not 100% etc. is so immense it is a wonder we get something done at the higher levels of the stack at all. I cannot comprehend, how it is possible, to hammer the RAM in such a way, that you can affect neighboring cells charge until the information interpreted based on the amount of charge in the cells is changed. This should never ever be possible. I haven't seen any such disclaimer this was possible on the package or in the data sheet of any RAM module. The same is with changing the kind of magnetic recording in the same hard drive model without notification (or change in model name that would be more honest). And then there are "subtle" problems, like coil whine on mainboards or PSUs for no reason - we know how to fix this. These high pitched sounds can give you headaches without you hearing much or anything. There is no indication about it on the package and almost no review tests this. And the whole Meltdown and Spectre type of bugs is just the cherry on top with major performance regressions because of it. So how are you supposed to write reliable software on top of all this if just a tight loop might actually change the state of hardware in such a way that is becomes a problem? I mean, this is just crazy.
For security critical work, like web services, it makes more sense to constantly upgrade to the newest version. But for scientific work, which is a huge audience of python users, who often use obscure poorly supported libraries there is a lot of value in a stable foundation.
This has been the Python 3 experience for years. If you had lots of previously ignored bugs in your Python 2 around string handling, it took longer but on a clean codebase it was often only a matter of minutes.
What’s old now is what was bleeding edge years ago - it hasn’t been updated (otherwise it wouldn’t be old), it has just gotten older.
And the problem with keeping old versions around is that when (not if) someone does discover a vulnerability, what are you going to do then?
If your answer is “we’ll patch it then”, then that’s not going to be an old version anymore, is it?
If your answer is “I guarantee it will 100% never have any vulnerabilities ever and so it will never need to be updated”, I don’t think we’re living in the same reality.
* One of the libraries that old code depends on has a vulnerability discovered. They provide a patch, but it's only for the current version rather than the one used 10 years ago, which means that it's not as simple as just rebuilding Python 2.
* A new attack on a cryptographic component, network protocol, etc. is developed and suddenly defaults previously considered safe are no longer considered safe. As a great example, how many old things broke when major sites and services like PyPI or GitHub deprecated SSLv3, TLS 1.0, etc.?
* One of the Python libraries you use has had a vulnerability which was only recently discovered. The maintainer quite reasonably does not provide unpaid support for free software which they updated years ago.
What all of those have in common is that the problem is less the vulnerability than the fact that you are likely to need significant amounts of unrelated work getting other components updated to the point where you can install the patch. Given how often vulnerabilities are discovered which have been present for many years, this is likely to happen for any sufficiently large code base.
1. The OS and hardware under it can change and lead to new vulnerabilities.
2. Dependencies of Software A can change, which can lead to new vulnerabilities in Software A.
3. It's easier to find more and more vulnerabilities on a target that does no longer move. And once they are found there will be fewer experts to detect/fix/report it as time goes on.
What type of vulnerability with it just sitting there as an executable do you expect?
And that's not to say those users won't have to find something new eventually (or migrate the software to a contained environment). It just shouldn't happen in an automatically installed update.
His point doesn't necessitate waiting. You could just classify it as a major release instead. That is not to say it should be a major release necessarily.
Removing support in the middle of 2020 would have been very unpopular.
Now that most places have vaccines, it probably doesn't make sense to wait for the next major release because this has already been long delayed.
Other factors could have also been at play - perhaps Apple Inc had a lot of internal tools on 2.X and has only recently gotten around to migrating all of those.
You make an assumption that the way your system and method of working is the same as everyone else on the planet. It is not.
I have two tools that I use monthly which require python 2.7. The people who made the tools never updated them to work with 3. For this reason, I have a work box that I cannot upgrade.
I know that Macs are aimed at end users, and not developers, but it really is getting harder and harder for me to use my Macs for the kind of work I do. Each major software update borks my virtual hosts. PHP has been removed, and because of code signing requirements, adding it back is so complicated it takes an entire day and filtering through a dozen half-baked online tutorials. No, the ones that say "Just use brew!" are not the answer unless you have a very simple job. I don't use Docker, but from what I read on HN, that's six miles of bad road, too. But as I understand the situation, that's Docker's fault, not Apple's.
The patient says, "It hurts when I do this."
The doctor says, "Don't do that."
Now? I honestly can’t think of a way to release without adding something like 100-200 MB to the app bundle, consisting of an entire Python installation. With a user-facing app it is not ideal to try to say something like “just download Python and tell me where it is”.
Apple probably has to either give up strict semantic versioning for breaking changes, give up their strict release schedule, or be willing to defer announced features that don't make one major version all the way to the next. Something needs to give. Looks like they've decided to go with a "semantic-lite" where breaking changes and major features aren't the rule with point releases but can still happen in old enough/deprecated areas.
It does seem more needless though in cases like this granted, unlike other examples it's not really clear why they'd do this now rather than 12.0. Not as if Python 2.7 was a spring chicken last year either, support ended in 2020 and that was like 11 years after release already? Heck, why not 11.0?
If Apple isn't going to follow any types of rules, then what's even the point?
As far as I understand, Semantic Versioning is not a synonym for "versioning scheme", but refers to a specific scheme (https://semver.org). So I don't understand how Apple having any versioning scheme implies that it must be semver.
It's okay if Apple's "minor releases" occasionally have breaking changes. But I don't think "wait until the next major release to remove an entire language runtime which has been built-in for 15+ years" is too much to ask.
That is perhaps still true in some large companies.
Meaning A and B bumps could be breaking, but C is still just for bugfixes.
Sure it's not a great system from the technical side of things, but it shouldn't be shocking that Apple puts marketing first.
I don't think introducing breaking changes in 2020 (with the world turned upside down) for 11.0 would have been a good idea. The same reasoning applies to 12.0, many countries were going through a Delta wave without having much vaccine availability this past summer.
I think Apple has been very reasonable about this - they've been clear that 2.x is going away, they have been extremely accommodating of changing circumstances, and 2.x can still be installed manually after this change.
See also the breaking change of 12.3 kernel extensions with Dropbox and Microsoft OneDrive:
* https://www.macrumors.com/2022/01/25/macos-12-3-cloud-storag...
* https://help.dropbox.com/installs-integrations/desktop/macos...
Apple doesn't claim to follow semantic versioning, which is where your expectation comes from.
Brew, docker, no idea if they have working release on the site, but that’s another possible way.
(I'm not defending the use of Python 2. I'm arguing that, as a general rule, if something takes the vendor X time, users should be given X + Y time.)
Apple OS naming isn't semver. They really have two OS major releases a year, Spring and Fall trains.
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos-release-note...
Bad form? Maybe. Good riddance? Yes.
Let's say I have a little utility shell script I wrote ten years ago. I basically haven't touched it ever since. Inside the script is one line of python for fetching the current time with more precision than `date`, or something, which I forgot about a long time ago.
When I install a major update, I test all my scripts to make sure they still work. I do not test after every point release, and I shouldn't have to!
It's not every point release - it's just this one, and it's because this change was (very reasonably) delayed from 2020.
2.X can still be installed manually, so you have that workaround.
This is why docker and other hermetically sealed packaging and languages (golang) systems work by avoiding the OS implementations which must change and update as quickly as possible.
The fact anyone would rely exclusively macOS level implementations and somehow expect them to remain stable and backwards compatible for any stretch of time blows my mind.
The fact it worked so well for so many years is a test that it’s needed and that it should be rewritten. All software should be kept up to date.
The same way software might have security issues and fixed, it can have other issues that need fixing.
While I'm not a fan of removing Python 2 mid major cycle, it's not without precedent, and they've had popups since the first Monterey release anytime anything linked against the system Python 2