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Comment by howmayiannoyyou | Hacker News Reader

Incorrect. It is a MORAL issue. Technology stolen from the US companies is advancing the national security agendas of countries with no regard for human rights and the rule of law. It is immoral to turn a blind eye to this very real threat.

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Well, many military technologies developed by the US companies are being used to manufacture weaponries used to kill foreign civilians... what's the moral of that story?

Also, by your logic what if totalitarian regimes are to steal medical technologies from US companies to develop medicines for their citizens? Is that moral or immoral?

false equivalence. If you actually cared you would acknowledge the vast difference between China's human rights record and that of the United States.

Interesting. So you think morality is quantifiable? Like it's fine to violate X amount of human rights but not X + 1. I'd like to hear your criteria.

If you think genocide, ethnic cleansing, natural resource exploitation on a global scale, modern day slavery & deadly global pathogen release are equivalent to US misconduct I wouldn't know where to begin in engaging with you.

I can spin this too if you allow me:

"genocide" of Muslims via constant war-waging; "ethnic cleansing" of native Americans; natural resource exploitation on a global scale; "modern day slavery" (i.e. extreme capitalism) both domestically by trapping workers into lifetime debts, and overseas by outsourcing to sweat shops; "deadly global pathogen release" by politicising pandemic responses while failing at it.

Rivalry states smear each others all the time. Also no contender for hegemony is morally superior than another.

> no contender for hegemony is morally superior than another.

Contemplate Nazi Germany winning WWII, or Soviet Russia winning the Cold War. Your contention doesn't stand up to history's lessons.

That’s exactly the point. Had the Nazis won WWII, the narrative would have been the allies were the one that commit genocides, the morally corrupt, and the war-mongers; the Nazis will boast themselves as the most righteous, and most people would have no problem believing that. Hard to imagine for sure, but in a world where the winners write the history, it would be naive to think only the winners must be just because “justice always prevails”.

With all due respect, this is completely irrelevant. This same technology and better is being sold out to countries like Saudi Arabia[1] and Israel[2], which are not exactly shining beacons of human rights.

What seems to be the argument here ? "If China wants to use US tech to oppress and kill people with no regard for human rights and the rule of law... they have to PAY for it first, like all respectable totalitarians do"?

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Israel

Your point being: since the US provides aid to countries whose human rights records are controversial China should be free to steal and misuse US intellectual property. Great argument. Have fun in a world where China's views on human rights prevail. I'm sure you & your family and their families will be very happy.

>Your point being: since the US provides aid to countries whose human rights records are controversial China should be free to steal and misuse US intellectual property.

That's not my point at all. My point is that it's hypocritical to worry about China using stolen US tech to augment and cement it's oppressive regime when there are countries whose entire dark existence is carved out of US tech and support.

Quantitatively speaking, the marginal utility that China gets from each stolen piece of US tech is probably lower than what they get from each million dollar the US government borrows from them, or each 100000 teenager who downloads tiktok, or from each 100 customer who buy their phones. What I'm trying to say here is that China is not dependent on stolen R&D to opress and brutalize people, they can opress and brutalize people perfectly fine without it, it's just an added bonus on what they already can do.

On the other hand US support for the 2 countries that I mentioned is literally keeping them together against astounding resistence, I would gladly bet my life they would fall apart in <= 10 years if the US was taken out of all geopolitical equations in front of everybody's eyes. If you knew the sheer amount of tyranny and evil the US is single-handedly pumping into the Middle East through those 2 countries alone, you wouldn't be able to sleep at night or day.

So to sum up : I don't think your offense at China's use of US tech is proportional to the amount of damage that tech actually ends up doing. There are other countries where US tech and arms are at least 2 orders of magnitude more destructive and suffering-inducing.

>human rights records are controversial

What a creative way to understate the fact that one of the countries mentioned cut a journalist in half with a chainsaw, while the other bombs civilians on a yearly basis and kills literal babies. "Controversial" is how you describe an things where there are credible differences of opinion on; not raw, pure evil.

Surveillance tech, AI, civil engineering & biotech are all examples of appropriated technologies used for heinous crimes against Tibetans, Uyghurs, Falun Gong & general dissent in China; and to hold SE Asia hostage to vast water sources now controlled by China. You're mistaken because you're poorly informed.

You're similarly misinformed about Israel. The IDF Ruach Tzahal sets forth an ethical code of conduct that has resulted in numerous prosecutions when violated. Yes, immoral actors (eg. Ariel Sharon) can effect terrible suffering as individuals on civilian populations. That's war and everything about it sucks. But, you won't find serious ethical codes of conduct in the Saudi or Chinese doctrines.

And this is my point... mistakes, imperfections, atrocities... it is inseparable from sustained conflict regardless of who is fighting. Some countries try to do better inside this reality, some pay lip service, some don't care. You lump it all together out of some personal and poorly informed bias.

The point is that if it were a MORAL issue as you suggested, then the US would not have sold their technologies to other countries whose human rights records are controversial. The fact that they had not problem doing that entails that it was not a moral issue, at least for the US companies.

> It is a MORAL issue. Technology stolen from the US companies is advancing the national security agendas of countries with no regard for human rights and the rule of law. It is immoral to turn a blind eye to this very real threat.

This 100%.

It is kind of curious fact that the US is not a member of ICC. Could you guess why?

There are good reasons why geopolitics cannot be held to strict interpretation of laws, not the least of which is the enforceability paradox, whereby countries more likely to break the norms are less susceptible to enforcement action. This, and attaching the name 'court' on something does not make it any less arbitrary or politically motivated

If your problem is with human rights and the rule of law, you should stop US violations first, because the US the most powerful country. The American military continues its aggression on human rights around the world.

I'm pretty sure US companies aren't thinking about the morality of it at all. Only $$$ lost and shareholders' emotions.

We know US companies aren't thinking about the morality, nor are US universities, which is why the government is stepping in.

If this was happening during the cold war, CEOs and University Presidents would be being indicted for treason.

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