Crypto leads to surge in online scams
axios.com
axios.com
At some point, Tether is going to crack. The backing isn't there, and everybody knows it now. It can't survive a net outflow. It's still possible to exit Tether for another stablecoin. USDT and USDC are still trading at 1:1. You can redeem USDC for US dollars. So if you own USDT, get out while you can. When stablecoins crash, they crash all the way to zero.
The SEC continues to bring enforcement actions. 97 so far in the cryptocurrency area.[1] Most recently, "Gold Hawgs". "Instead of using all of the investor funds to develop Gold Hawgs' business, Garcia, the chief financial officer and a 50% owner of the company, allegedly stole approximately $123,000 of the money raised from investors by transferring the funds to another company that he controlled; he then allegedly used the money to pay for various personal and business expenses unrelated to Gold Hawgs."
Before that, "Crowd Machine": "In this offering, which occurred between January and April 2018, Sproule told investors that the ICO proceeds would be used to develop a new technology that would enable Metavine, Inc.’s existing application-development software to run on a decentralized network of users’ own computers. Instead, Crowd Machine and Sproule began diverting more than $5.8 million in ICO proceeds to gold mining entities in South Africa – a use that was never disclosed to investors."
Before that, "Denaro": "Auzins misappropriated all of the ICO’s proceeds."
Before that, "MyMicroProfits": "Defendant Ryan Ginster allegedly engaged in a fraudulent scheme raising millions in cryptocurrency using online investment programs and then converted the cryptocurrency for his own benefit,"
Totally ordinary con game rip-offs. Only the hype is new.
It looks like 2022 will be the big shakeout year for NFTs and the low end of cryptocurrencies.
[1] https://www.sec.gov/spotlight/cybersecurity-enforcement-acti...
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/data-spotlight/2021/12...
Should we start blaming gift cards too?
If so, then why are these logically refutable scams ("Give me 1btc and I'll send you 3btc back!!!": Just think that the person would, if they can generate 4btc of value out their ass like that, simply likely keep it, whether they valued the fiat value of it or not) so common?
I understand the idea that the emotional gain from giving something to someone who has never had anything of that value may be overwhelmingly tempting or fulfilling on the "giver's" part but similarly, aren't there people more deserving of this than you, the "scam" victim? At that point, I don't even know if I would call it a scam.
If someone posed as a verified conveyancer and built a fake profile, payed legitimate businesses and entities off for positive testimonials etc. And encouraged me to hire them to re-mortgage my property for me then I would call that a scam - but someone asking for money with the vague promise that "they need it more than you" not so, similarly not with a "I will give you double the money you give me" scheme. It just feels more like something so stupid that you are entirely at fault if you fall for it.
Stop chasing the easy money. In fact, stop thinking about money all the time.
Stash a little money from your paychecks into a 401k and a Roth IRA and invest in passive, broad market ETFs. Hold no matter how the market is feeling this week. Don't trade on margin, don't stock pick, don't daytrade, and stay away from options.
The buy and forget way to wealth is a much surer path than the risky one.
Honestly, I wouldn't bother putting my money into a 401k - I would stash it away, let a little rot away with inflation and use it to start a business that provides real people with a real product and pray. That seems like a more sure-fire way to get across the line.
Ostensibly, that can be thought of as a more extreme version of your "pick an index and stick in it" approach. The reality of it is that we don't know which one of these choices is the right one - it may be so that cryptocurrency will make you trillions! Or that the Roth IRA will have 70% of the people who stick their money in it as actual millionaires despite them only making $70k a year for 30 years.
Don’t get me wrong. Starting a business is a bet in yourself which is always good. I think people who are interested in the life style should definitely do it, just not by using all their retirement savings.
It attracts people who want to make money easily. A crazy amount of people who have no idea about the tech aspect of crypto are "investing" and active in crypto social groups. Just go on the major subreddits and read a few threads, it won't take long to see that a very large portion of them are kids/teenagers who invested a few hundreds or less in the hope of a 1000x pump, these are the people who get scammed.
Everyone says they're here for "the project", "the future of currencies", &c. most of them are here to make a quick buck
It's obvious, socially/culturally, that this is a scam; why would anyone give people money after they get money?
But logically, no. This is not a "logically refutable scam". Unless you misunderstand what logic is.
If you add the context of "More money is better", "Value is gained after gaining money" and "Money has value", it seems to perfectly fit into logic. Prove me wrong if I am, I would appreciate it - I am not a Haskell programmer, so I think I could learn from it.
But, to engage with your implied argument in good faith: Do irrational people deserve to have all their money taken from them?
My argument was that any rational person should be able to conclude it's a scam. That's really the extent of my willingness to engage further.
You simply need premises (i.e. assumptions) to make use of deductive logic in a standard logical system. Those premises, when used with logic that has no fallacies, implies conclusions. Any real world conclusions are always based on premises, where those premises are based on experimental evidence. It's always the case that there could be problems with the experiments, and there always are limitations of those experiments. That doesn't mean you can't use logic to derive conclusions.
It's very common to give away new cryptocurrencies to seed them and build popularity with them, even in a non-scammy way. RaiBlocks (eventually renamed Nano), for example, started this way. Eventually that currency (mostly) ended in a giant heist because the biggest exchange for that currency had its entirety of value "stolen" (embezzled by the exchange's operator). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nano_(cryptocurrency)#BitGrail...
Naive users who know very little about cryptocurrencies but who want to get into that market (think your parents, if they're technically literate enough to use the internet) will genuinely be persuaded by giveaways.
It's becoming a common scam practice to give people free cryptocurrency tokens (or at extreme discount), and make it so people can only sell those tokens by buying other tokens. This happens over and over, and actually got some reporting on it with the Squid Game tokens (not associated with the actual Korean media drama): https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59129466
So sure, you could technically make a "logical" argument about anything you want with the right premises, but if those premises are not based in reality, then the conclusions don't hold in reality. Those are called apriori arguments. Because the statement that "no one would ever give away cryptocurrency for free" is a strictly false one.
Then the owners take the $2M they got in early financing or seed money or reservations or whatever it's called and disappear with it.
Now they hear another of those stories that don't make any sense at all. But this time with a peculiar tweak, they might perhaps be the protagonist themselves! Two wrongs don't make one right, so far so good. But what about two utterly confusing?
Axie Infinity combined the worst features of a gig economy, multi-level marketing, and a Ponzi scheme.
The company responded by launching another token.
The metaverse NFT thing has not resulted in much in the way of good 3D worlds. Decentraland and Sominium Space actually got worlds going, but they're not very impressive virtual worlds and few people go there. Many of the later entrants don't even try to implement a product. They just hand-wave that as something scheduled far down the roadmap. They go on and on in their "white papers" about the details of the token system, while saying nothing about how they plan to implement the supposed product. Then there are the people who just sell plots on a 2D map and don't even pretend to have ambitions of making it into a usable virtual world. There are a few NFT promoters who aspire to build a 3D world, or at least talk about it, but they are not seen to be working at the scale required to bring it off.
Now, what props up this house of cards is the success of Bitcoin, Etherium, and Tether. We now have hundreds of billions of dollars invested in memes. So people think that investing in new memes is a real business. The history of financial scams suggests that it is not. It's worth noting that none of this stuff has faced a recession yet. In a recession, there's net outflow from investments. What could possibly go wrong?
Of all of the stuff in crypto that frustrates me, the absolute trashing of the term "white paper" takes the cake. This used to be a term for work that was not published in traditional academic outlets but nevertheless was of similar rigor and intellectual value. Now "whitepaper" means "Welcome to bongcoin, the best coin for ripping huge hits and buying lambos."
But if all you want is your money to be backed by something that intrinsically retains value, there are many standard choices. Like _foreign currency_. Or something more involved, like stocks and bonds and commodities contracts.
Or you could just plain use precious metals.
Cryptocurrency doesn't uniquely solve the problem of inflation, but it does introduce a lot of others. (Including the risk that a country's entire Treasury gets drained because an office worker plugs a USB stick they found in the parking lot into the wrong computer)
Governments have fallen for the siren call of inflation ever since Nixon. They won't give it up and adopt any standard, gold or otherwise, because it would imply they have to be accountable for finances.
This is why private individuals have to use more creative ways of storing their value.
This is objectively false given that the article is about how easy it is to scam people out of their bitcoins.
Stocks and bonds are not bearer assets, so you have to sell them before spending them.
Commodities are inconvenient to carry (though in some cases maybe more convenient than wheelbarrowing cash).
Real-estate is much less liquid, you can't sell or spend 0.01% of an apartment.
Sounds more like younger people were willing to report
They ran a YouTube Live stream on loop with an Auntie Cathy and Elon interview about crypto and made it look very believable. YouTube finally took down the video after about a day.
Hard work.
But i've seen those YT live streams since forever, and sorting by upload date shows just how much uses his likeness for unrelated scams / grifting. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=elon+crypto&sp=...
Note that the ticker on the button is obviously fake (the truncated addresses line up with the addresses here but not the txs). 45 ETH transactions and 19 BTC transactions over 3 days. Here[0] we can trace the one time they moved BTC so far: A CoinJoin. I'm not sure how Samourai's joins work these days but it doesn't look like JoinMarket so I'm guessing that or Wasabi.
The majority of incoming are exchange withdrawals.
[0] https://etherscan.io/address/0x53F6656DE60C7c92317dCBed4E034...
[1] https://mempool.space/address/bc1qgv9vntpdvyedgr3lj9p5az0hxa...
[2] https://mempool.space/address/bc1qgv9vntpdvyedgr3lj9p5az0hxa...
I simply can not have any sympathy for idiots so greedy they fall for the "I'll double your cryptos" scam. None.
The best way of fighting scams is intelligent, critically thinking people. If this wasn't so deliberately undesired by politics, the world as a whole would be a better place.
Told the police, they said, they can't do a thing, because the scammer stole the bank account and probably lives in Estonia or somewhere.
So, while I use banks on a daily basis, simply because I have to, I don't believe they are much safer.
In any case, sorry it happened to you.
Also, depending on how it was possible for the scammer to "steal the bank account" in the first place you might be entitled to damages or something, though that heavily depends on your legislation and where your bank is located of course.
I got packages stolen in front of my porch and got my money back from Amazon. Did Amazon go find the thief? Probably not. Will this always work? Probably not. But I had someone to talk to. In blockchain nobody can change the past.
Once critical thinkers, now vulnerable and gullible.
I wouldn't be so harsh.
Doesn't change the rest, though.
Victim blaming is a bad idea.
Regulators exist for a reason.
If publicly traded companies started putting their treasuries into Caesar’s chips, you bet we’d see more regulation.
This isn’t an argument that I think is particularly worth entertaining. People should exercise due caution at all times appropriate to their surroundings. However if a criminal robs them it’s the criminals fault.
Our reaction wouldn’t be, well, let’s arrest the criminals but leave those tunnels, the tunnels did nothing wrong!!
Doing so would simply give the next criminal a head start.
This is a great analogy for crypto. Sure once in a while an asymlum seeker may get through too, but overwhelmingly it’s narcos and Bolivian marching powder. So we blow up the tunnels.
It's not about the main thing an infrastructure enables, it's about what the infrastructure is designed for. Tunnels under the border are specifically there to smuggle. Highways are there to do move anything you want, including illegal activity, which is policed separately.
And the asylum seekers and Bolivian marching powder examples are good to address the main point here as well. Does the cokehead share any blame in using coke? Is that victim blaming? Should asylum seeking be illegal?
Was bitcoin created to break the law? In some ways. But it was designed to facilitate commerce without regard for legality. It's not like a smuggling tunnel, it's like a highway. And it's like that because sometimes you want to smuggle something, like asylum seekers, but you want it to serve legitimate purposes also. So not a very good analogy at all.
> It's not about the main thing an infrastructure enables, it's about what the infrastructure is designed for.
It's not at all, what it was originally designed for is irrelevant, the question is what it's being used for.
> Does the cokehead share any blame in using coke? Is that victim blaming? Should asylum seeking be illegal?
These are all utterly aside the point. These are matters of law. Law governs. Infrastructure which facilitates that is better than infrastructure which does not. Infrastructure that makes breaking the law easy is worse than one that does not.
> Was bitcoin created to break the law? In some ways.
Again intent is completely irrelevant except for the prosecution of those doing the creation.
Because cryptocurrency is slower, less efficient, more volatile, and incorporates dramatically more counter-party risk than classic payment methods it self-selects primarily for the criminal activity. It's useful as a payments system of last resort in certain cases but that's dwarfed by the illicit use which is in turn dwarfed by speculative use. It actually creates roughly zero value.
Then surely you should be able to demonstrate your point with some analogy other than "a smuggling tunnel."
> These are all utterly aside the point.
No, they are the point. This thread was about victim blaming. And you brought up asylum seekers, broadening the discussion to include whether legality should apply at all, or whether we should consider ethical use of a tool regardless of legality. I'm not bringing anything new up in this discussion, I'm only replying directly to points made.
> Infrastructure that makes breaking the law easy is worse than one that does not.
Even if that infrastructure primarily serves (or was created to serve, you choose) the purpose of smuggling, for example, asylum seekers?
Your entire point in this comment seems to be "everything you bring up is irrelevant" which begs the question, why are we even having this discussion at all?
I don't feel I need to. I think it's pretty apt.
> ...broadening the discussion to include whether legality should apply at all...
I didn't do that, you did. I maintain legality is society's decision to make, and that infrastructure should serve society's goals. Infrastructure that makes it dead easy to undermine societies goals is not something I want to encourage.
> Even if that infrastructure primarily serves (or was created to serve, you choose) the purpose of smuggling, for example, asylum seekers?
This is why I suggested it was a tortured reading.
Again, it only really matters what it's actually used for. Asylum seekers need not be smuggled through tunnels because it is lawful to apply for asylum at a port of entry. You show up and ask for it.
> This is especially true among younger people who are digitally savvy but less financially literate.
> People ages 18-to-39 were more than twice as likely to report losing money to social media scams as older adults last year.
Seems like maybe we should be protecting the "young know-it-alls" from themselves?
It's not clear what cryptocurrencies have given us, apart from a (not very secure) way to buy drugs on the Internet and the occasional slower, power guzzling alternative to a service that already exists.
I actually prefer using the public ones when I want a paper trail. But I've got a stash of the private ones in case I ever need to relocate to a different country one day in my life.
Or do you think criminals are using crypto because they're uninformed reddit HODLRS hoping to moon?
The criminals stayed though.
First, it was criminals, now it's the planet. You are all over the place my guy. I'm doing what's best for me economically speaking; the planet is just gonna have to figure out a way to survive because I'm for sure doing fine.
- my family
- my friends
- my country
- the rest of the world
I'm not going to restrict my own economic goals to save the planet at the expense of the things above.
There's flyover country, there's flyover countries, and ignoring the masses that make that up is equal parts condescending and ignorant.
El Salvador's wannabe dictator is pretty keen on it, though.
And we aren't going to get anywhere in this discussion if your only rebuttal is "the leader of a country using it voluntarily is a dictator so that settles it." Do you have a rebuttal to my point at all?
Then again, hopefully we'll never need to see a future where everyone values the decentralized nature of crypto more than its monetary value at any given moment. If that happens, it might be under a regime where sneezing in public or looking in the wrong direction would lose you enough social credit that your bank account gets terminated.
Uncensorable, except for all of the times that providers have refused service because of (very reasonable!) KYC laws.
Global, except for all of the countries that will throw you in prison for using cryptocurrencies.
Decentralized, except for the structured oligarchy of miners who prevent protocol evolution on any decentralized currency of sufficient value.
Hully gee.
- You cannot censor a Bitcoin transaction. You are talking about a completely unrelated issue and pretending this is an issue with Bitcoin.
- People in China are still mining Bitcoin and using crypto even with the ban. So it truly is global. Just like how drugs are global even though most countries have banned them: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/18/chinas-underground-bitcoin-m....
- Miners have tried to prevent changes to the Bitcoin and Ethereum protocol more than once and failed due to community consensus of the users. Miners don't get to decide which protocol is run, the users ultimately do. If the miners choose to mine an unpopular protocol, people can and will simply fork the chain to a more favorable protocol. This has happened plenty of times.
My personal belief is that the best way I can set myself up to fall for a scam is by incorrectly believing that I would never fall for one. "Pride goeth before the fall." That's why I try to remind myself I'm as fallible as the next human.
Except we know that at scale very large organizations, i.e. Google, cannot 100% stop phishing attacks just by user training. Humans are always fallible in a large enough group. The solution for phishing protection is to take the human out of the equation and rely on something like U2F to perform the authenticity check for you.
Their phishing incidents dropped to zero.
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/07/google-security-keys-neu...
The problem, simplified: People are dumb.
The solution: Making people smarter.
Not a solution: Keeping people dumb and preventing them from making stupid mistakes.
To make sure that everyone, who will eventually read this, understand what this line actually means, is:
There's always an idiot falling through the cracks.
Yes. It's inevitable. It happens. Doesn't change the fact that if people were more rational and less driven by their feelings, less people would be falling for scams and thus less scams would exist.
Anyone who doesn't understand that scams solely exist because they work, is excused. Anyone who disagrees with the idea that people need to act in a rational, self responsible manner is a part of the problem.
The cause of scams is people, who aren't thinking things through, falling for them. If schools nowadays didn't raise people into mostly being thoughtless robots, the world would be a better place as a whole, scams included.
Of course there's always going to be one guy. Doesn't change the rest at all. You're making good the enemy of perfect and your solution in no way or form actually improves us, as humans, and instead removes even more responsibility away from us.
Crypto is intentionally the opposite. Imposing artificial scarcity on a world without, leveraging inefficiency and complexity at every level to obscure what’s actually happening. It’s an ideology not a technology. It’s just a linked list but much slower. Anything that can be built on the blockchain can be built faster, cheaper and more efficient without.
Ask yourself why in 14 years no industries have been revolutionized, no businesses built (except for trading) and no value created. If there’s so many industries ripe and begging for the tech why hasn’t a single one of them gained any value from even one blockchain implementation?
Why exactly do you think the valuation of cryptocurrencies are so high? Certainly it's not an indicator that the business case for it is nil. Maybe not revolutionary, but it is disingenuous or delusional to suggest that there's no business use for this thing while staring point blank at a world getting eaten by it in real time.
> Why exactly do you think the valuation of cryptocurrencies are so high? Certainly it's not an indicator that the business case for it is nil.
Completely irrelevant. Prices are determined at the margin, its most recent price times supply. It’s got nothing to do with how much money is in the system or how useful any of it is. They’re all priced in USDT which has at numerous times been totally unbacked and issued on loans to institutions who use it to control the marginal price.
As for shared delusions, the entire economy of Albania collapsed into a civil war because 66% of the GDP got locked into MLM schemes in 1997. [1]
You must evaluate this from first principles not based on what the other lemmings are up to.
14 years in can you name a single business built on crypto that’s even remotely successful?
[1] https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2000/03/jarvis.ht...
Everyone who wants crypto can have it, now. And could have had it on day one.
Built on crypto? By definition you can't name a single business that isn't an exchange built on it. That's like naming a business built on stock trading that isn't a stock exchange or investment fund. But ones that use crypto in some way? I can name a few, not counting black market businesses, overstock.com is one.
Overstock doesn’t use crypto, they use Coinbase who gives overstock good old American greenbacks. Like most of the world accepting crypto they don’t actually - it would be impossible due to the massive forex risk. They rely on third party MSBs like Coinbase and Bitpay to liquidate incoming crypto.
I’m thinking of the crowd with a list as long as their arm of ideas including replacing Ticketmaster, supply chain management, voting, all the other broad ideas.
I've never once claimed cryptocurrency would be useful for anything other than money, so I'd be the wrong person to argue with about that. I'm not a web3 evangelist.
Of course, the sheer inefficiency of the system makes it practically useless as money due to the transaction times, costs and volume capacity.
It's bad at being money too.
The philosophy behind it is a widely debunked model (Austrian economics) which isn't taken serious by ... anyone outside a fringe group of libertarians.
Also it's critical to note: it's market cap is not the quantity of value 'stored.' It's simply most recent price times supply. You couldn't get a fraction of a fraction of that back out without zeroing out the entire thing. Proof of work relies on wasting as much of the world's limited resources as you can within the budget allotted, and proof of stake is simply a perpetual wealth machine for the already wealthy.
Then of course the ability to reverse transactions is huge value-add for customers, the ability to block transactions to sanctioned countries is a huge value-add for the world.
The philosophy behind "it" is a pretty complex thing. You can design a currency using the tools used to make bitcoin and have any sort of economic philosophy as your guide. It isn't limited to Austrian economics. You can have a linear, predictable supply increase, a finite supply, a logarithmic debasement rate (percentage of supply increase rate), a complex algorithm to determine it, a democratic process, or even just some guy calling the shots if you want. It's a general purpose tool.
I'm aware of the huge flaw in the "market cap" metric and it's relative uselessness.
If reversible transactions are a value add, people will use currencies with that option, and where it's not, people won't.
I don't think bitcoin makes good money. But I do think you can make good money with the technology, I think it is good that this thing is driving people to make technology with which you can make potentially better money, I think we are finding the utility of this stuff by just letting people do what they want with it, and I personally find it useful in my life.
Disagree. You should do whatever you want so long as it doesn't negatively impact society more broadly. As I demonstrated in the Albanian example there is a real chance that allowing people to do as they please can lead to a complete implosion of the economy - and even war. Everything we do as a group is about balancing individual freedoms against their impacts on others. This is the "your right to swing your arms around wildly ends where my face begins" argument.
> You can design a currency using the tools used to make bitcoin and have any sort of economic philosophy as your guide. It isn't limited to Austrian economics. You can have a linear, predictable supply increase, a finite supply, a logarithmic debasement rate (percentage of supply increase rate), a complex algorithm to determine it, a democratic process, or even just some guy calling the shots if you want. It's a general purpose tool.
None of that is useful without the ability to step in and actively manage it during situations that weren't baked into the original design. Think the DAO.
> I'm aware of the huge flaw in the "market cap" metric and it's relative uselessness.
The argument I was responding to initially was your assertion that "surely there's something there because the number is so up! Check out that market cap!"
> If reversible transactions are a value add, people will use currencies with that option, and where it's not, people won't.
They do, everyone uses dollars.
> But I do think you can make good money with the technology.
I disagree fundamentally because it cannot handle edge cases and the edge cases are the only thing that really matters in the end.
This is obviously not true, given that there was a wealth of text-based internet applications well before image-based options were widely available.
This sounds like "if everyone was a good driver, we'd have less auto related deaths". C'mon - that's not how the world works, this is just wishful thinking.
The problem with crypto scams is there is no clawback. If someone commits wire fraud and I accidentally send the wire for my $100k down payment for my new house to <insert imposter> the bank can potentially reconcile it. With crypto? Nope, you're f'd. Sorry there's no trace.
> intelligent, critically thinking people
Like the Winklevoss twins who store their wallet keys in....BANKS so they don't get scammed. The irony is hilarious.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/19/technology/bitcoin-winkle...
That's victim blaming
What's the purpose of starting the article with so much redundancy?
The abundance of crypto hate is confusing to me as one hand HN believes it's a pointless & worthless technology but also somehow this unstoppable force giving criminals limitless power to burn all the trees and rob the youth.
(1) https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2021/02/top-frauds-2020
All of this is consistent, factual, and a huge problem.
What about this tool makes it criminal by nature?
It's censorship-resistant, private (if you want it to be), and very inefficient energy-wise. It's the logical extension of encryption. Encryption is also useful for criminal purposes and internet crime wouldn't really exist without it. Privacy != criminal. Also, do you know how much energy it would save if nothing was encrypted?
Every government in the history of the world has eventually collapsed causing devastation for its people. Money printers go wild. Corruption everywhere. People cannot afford basic necessities. If we can figure out a money that cannot be messed with, maybe that's not such a bad thing.
Anyways, negative press floats up and stirs the pot. So here we go
HN's hate for crypto is hilarious.
>HN's hate for crypto is hilarious.
Really? I don't recall members of "our own tribe" sitting down and cranking out 2 hours of VHS video takedowns of "the web" or "email".[0]
[0] The Problem with NFTs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g
If theoretically many anti-crypto people do turn out to be the dying tribe, what does that mean? What does that future world look like? What does the living tribe end up looking like?
Basically, some people don't make it, some new ones do, and a lot of people adapt, some reluctantly or disgruntled and some realize they were wrong.
I might be the one realizing I'm wrong, but of course I doubt it.