I don't want even to look at the numbers of the more critical epidemic on the US: obesity and metabolic diseases.
By arguing that "the unvaxxed" are a burden and that they deserve discrimination, you are opening the gates for those arguing that smokers should be forced to stop smoking, or that obese people need to be forced to stricter diets.
I am also saying that if problem of the health system is lack of personnel, then firing healthcare workers who refuse the vaccine (even after being infected) is counter-productive and can only be seen as a bone-headed political move.
But most of all what I am saying is that we should not accept the policy theater. Making this about vaxxed vs unvaxxed is just yet-another way for governments (worldwide) to hide their ineptitude.
It's been two years already. Countries in Europe with comparable levels of vaccination to the US are already treating Covid as "just a endemic, seasonal respiratory disease". Yet the US still wants to pretend that things just don't get solved because of rednecks and "problematic people" that need to submit to the will of the elite.
It is not the vaccination, per se[*]. It is the political maneuvering and using the unvaxxed as a cover for their failures, this perpetual "if only they did what we are asking of them", etc. The will of the elite is that we accept this perpetual terror until we give them carte blanche for them to do whatever "Big Reset" they want.
In Germany we are testing our kids twice a week at a minimum, and everyday when/if a positive test is found in the school. Case numbers are high, measures are in place, but people are mostly living their lives without waiting for Mary from Bumfuck Alabama to get her shot. Why is it so hard for the US to drop the empty pointless rhetoric and get their shit together?
[*]If it helps you, I am not against the vaccines. I got mine, boosters and all. What I am against is the policy theater. What I am against is schools being closed and causing a lot more long-term harm to kids than the potential risks of them getting covid. What I am against is firing health care workers for political reasons while claiming that the system will collapse unless everyone complies.
Granted, a very cynical view of the educational system is most Western countries is that it is a glorified time-waster for kids to be busy while parents work. But even that was lost during the pandemic. Most schools basically have given up on getting students to learn anything this past year. Lockdowns have acted as prolonged stunt on children's socialization opportunities. Anxiety levels for teenagers are through the roof.
The effects of these two years on younger kids will be profound and long-lasting. They are paying a lot more than their share of risk. And saying "they are not dying" is not a consolation because - unlike with the Plague - kids are basically zero-risk compared with other age groups.
> At least they had internet and other niceties
Are you serious? The last thing you should want for kids is for them to become dependent on something like the Internet. Such a comment is almost offensive to a parent that does not want to see their kids turning into mindless, socially-inept drones like the average HN-commenter.
We have some hypotheses that children are the flu reservoir and that if we required them to get an annual shot it would tamp down flu seasons.
The primary difference is that the flu vaccine is predictive and can miss. It's kind of hard to demand that people take something that may not work.
If we got something genuinely terrible like Spanish Flu, yes, everybody would be demanding that people get a flu shot.
We also charge smokers more for health care due to the burden they put on the system, yet another form of discrimination.
You're also making the naive mistake of relating a stable system (smokers with health issues) with an unstable system (covid patients). These two types of systems have VERY different impacts on the medical infrastructure.
QED: no one is opening any flood gates. we've had this shit in place for over a century. we use to let you just die at home when you caught the plague.
I’m assuming it’s a bad idea for reasons that I haven’t thought through; I’d love to hear them from anyone who has spent time on the issue.
Based on seriousness of the case, not really on whether it was preventable in the first place. For extremely limited resources like organs there is consideration of future risks, but that isn't really the same thing.
>We also charge smokers more for health care due to the burden they put on the system, yet another form of discrimination.
So let insurance adjusters charge different rates for vax/unvac'd people covered by insurance like they do for smokers.
incorrect its based on likely hood of survival. no point in wasting resources on a soon to be dead individual when you can save someone who actually has a chance.
So in that sense, the response to COVID is similar - though on an accelerated time scale, because the epidemic is much worse.
Tobacco still causes 480K+ deaths a year in the US so saying covid is worse is a very strong claim.
https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/heal...
I think the epidemic is worse in a few particular ways (though obviously not as bad in other ways as smoking, since I doubt COVID will keep causing 480k deaths a year). Ways in which it is worse:
1. It causes a spike of hospitalizations - this causes much less healthcare to be available in general. Smoking is already (regretably) factored in, I imagine, and doesn't cause sudden spikes.
2. COVID is generally not something you can protect yourself from - unlike smoking, which is to a much greater extent a personal choice.
3. Efforts to contain COVID are having a drastic effect on the economy in a way that smoking doesn't (both government-mandated and personal actions.)
2, Whole heartedly disagree with. Covid has specific health risk factors (Obesity, Diabetes etc) that long term people have a similar level of control over as smoking. People also have direct control over how much risk they want to take; there are vaccines, there are therapies, there are N95 Masks & no one is forcing you to go to a bar/club/sporting-event.
3. I'm not going to attribute to Covid the panic and over-reaction because of its novelty. Just like we don't attribute to the 9/11 terrorists the destabilization of the middle east and hundreds of thousands of deaths.
But people don't always control having diabetes. People don't control having cancer. People don't control other forms of immunocompromisation. People don't control being older.
3. I don't think it's an overreaction. You said in 2 that there are vaccines, therapies, masks. These things took a year to get to. If not for the actions in the first year, there'd be many more dead.
Honestly, then good, we should open that can of worms.
> 300 billion dollars estimated to be spent per year with treatment of smoking-related illness.
AFAIK this treatment doesn't include "clogging an ICU because these people are on ventilators". I could be wrong though.
1. Should smoking be banned? (by smoker status)
2. Should obese people be forced by the government to restrict calories? (by obesity status)
I honestly have no idea how it would go. Most people are more coy about those opinions.
Obese people is a more complicated issue and I would argue that (at a societal level) it is an indicator of a larger social problem that is then causing the issue downstream just like other issues of addiction. I think we would be better off targeting that issue upstream.
That being said I do really like that in some countries (Japan, from what I hear) your general doctor can prescribe you basic things like "exercise". It must be painfully obvious to so many doctors out there that the best solution to some problems is to get the person actually moving more but instead they have to beat around the bush with after the fact duct tape type medical fixes.
I'm not sure I understand. You mean like banning certain foods?
Obviously, yes, medical conditions do place burdens on health systems. That's why we tax cigarettes highly. However, in spite of considerable public health initiatives, the obesity rate continues to rise...
As much as I support vaccination, it feels like gaps in vaccination are also used as an excuse to blow off repairing an extremely fragile public health system. We've had two years at this point.
I do agree that this is something governments ought to be looking into over the long term though.
Training people to assist Covid cases, run PCR tests, should be a matter of weeks, not years. Germany did it, I have 4 (four!) test centers on within a block of distance, all of them are filled with students and otherwise-unemployed people who got some minimal training.
If we're to treat this like an emergency, why aren't we treating it like an emergency?
Because in truth it probably never was. We assembled fully staffed field hospitals that went completely unused.
That's why I think vaccination schemes that offered free food were undermining the "following the science" bit.
As was the banning of the popular "Parkrun" in the UK, which is a collective outdoor exercise event, during the lockdown.
So many policies have undermined the "follow the science" bit in my mind.
> one run and one meal is not gonna make or break someones weight
On the contrary, we have had two years of this pandemic. Government messaging could have been a lot stronger on the benefits of exercise. That's 2 years for people to become healthier.
And "one vaccine" has turned into one vaccine plus boosters. Everyone is going to get Covid at some point. General fitness will remain one of the best long term ways of combating the virus.
The Parkrun is a weekly occurrence, and is popular even for those who do not have an interest in exercise as a hobby, as it is informal. As such, it acts as an important gateway to a healthier lifestyle.
I'm by no means alone in seeing banning it as counterproductive, and not "following the science".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59816344
If the government wants to serverely curtail individual liberties, then I expect good reasons for doing so. It's not good to encourage blind adherance to illogical policies.
Also, assuming their obesity is a life style choice instead of type 1 diabetes, I suspect many obese people would be willing to take a easy vaccine if it exists considering how big the lose-weight-quick industry is