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Comment by 3pt14159 | Hacker News Reader

No we aren't.

I don't have to buy a phone. Yes, the apps make the border easier for Covid, but don't be ridiculous. I can fallback to filling out a piece of paper. Furthermore, I can buy an [PinePhone, Librem 5, etc] phone and "fully control" that.

As for c) that's been part of life since the government got the right to tap your phone or telegraph.

Right now there are troubling signs for the direction of American democracy, but the courts have held up and life is still pretty good and, for some, getting better. I know mistakes happen and it isn't perfect, but we're no where close to being forced to own and carry a device.

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> No we aren't.

In Denmark where I live there are now trivial things that are impossible to do without an Apple or Google smartphone, and important things that are becoming very hard. Unless laws are specifically enacted to enshrine "analogue rights" or whatever, it will become impossible to exist here without a smartphone over the next decade.

Cash is largely dead and will die when the legal requirement to accept it is phased out at some point in the next few years. In addition to credit cards, there is one app for payments (owned by the largest retail bank) that has become the de facto standard for person-to-person transfers. So we are already at the point where not having a smartphone makes you a second class citizen, unable to participate in some parts of the economy.

Which services specifically? This is an international forum. I want specific examples and I don't think that's too much of an ask.

The worst example I've seen personally was the pension plan provider at my current job. They required an app to sign up and manage everything. They don't have a web site and I was the first person to ask about it.

Parking in many places requires an app from an app store.

There's lots of small community things, local classifieds etc., that exist in niche things that only have an app. Like I said, trivial things, but they add up to everyday life becoming harder.

As for legal requirement: the government single sign-on that is used to interact with all government services and is also mandated for many important things like banks, insurance etc., is app-centric, though not app-only. They used to send one-time pads on cardboard but recently switch to electronic tokens. All government ID (for public health etc.) is also moving to apps. You can still get plastic cards, of course.

- cars will certainly soon have the state's "black box" in them

- Your ID card already has RFID, and it will only get more powerful

- credit, payment, banking, passports, air travel ... all getting centralized.

- Go ahead and fallback to paper, that just means the paper is entered into a computer when you hand it in and they "review" it. What will probably happen is that the all-paper route will become FAR MORE ONEROUS will submitting to facial recognition, DNA samples, and the like to back-verify your identity, higher fees, wait times, until you submit to practical day-to-day needing a on-body computer device like a phone.

- all democracies know laziness is the key to functionally subverting rights, it's only going to get worse.

- even if you don't submit, all they people you know WILL, and the government can track you by tracking the people you know. So I guess, no friends for you.

Now, for every place I said government, cross that out and put in "multinational corporation that is a monopoly or cartel in all its markets"... and it's all there, turnkey, same policies, but even less legal / constitutional protection.

If you find yourself in a state of emergency, you might be out of luck if you don't own a SIM card registered to your own name, plugged into a modem which you cannot fully control by law.

BTW, if you want to make a call over the telephone network, neither the PinePhone nor the Librem 5 carry a modem you can control. In both cases, the modem is a black box with non-free firmware that you're probably not even allowed to modify, depending on jurisdiction.

Oh, and it doesn't even have to be an emergency. You might find out that your hospital only accepts appointments made by phone, and will turn you around from the door due to COVID restrictions when you try to schedule a visit. What will you choose?

Granted, it's not a legal requirement to take advantage of your legally mandated health insurance, but it's a catch-22 that was constructed out of a clash of laws.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=home+telephone

"Call this number from your car" was a common procedure, on arriving at a place, for much of COVID. Hard to do that without a cellphone (or a carphone, I guess, but who still has those? Cops, maybe?)

No one doubts that owning at least a burner "dumb" phone has become a practical necessity.

It's the idea of an actual smartphone not just maybe, hypothetically but "right now becoming" a legal requirement that seems to be -- more than a bit of stretch, here,

Did you try running banking apps on the PinePhone?

My bank has made it (almost) impossible to make payments without a phone, btw. Either you need to receive SMS messages or use their proprietary app. I could receive SMS messages without a phone but I would expect this to be a solution that eventually gives me more trouble than it's worth.

> My bank has made it (almost) impossible to make payments without a phone, btw

My bank has several buildings full of people, all within driving distance of my house. Any of those people will happily accept a stack of paper bills.

If you don't want to use digital forms of payment, why on earth are you using a bank that doesn't have physical branches located near your home?

Any of those people will happily accept a stack of paper bills.

Have you actually tried depositing large amounts of cash on a regular basis? Sounds like a good way to get your account flagged and suspended.

Not to mention the Treasury's seeming animosity toward cash as an instrument of payment.

There's a middle ground here that has existed for a long time. Mail hand-written cheques for your bills, deposit your paystub into your bank account, withdraw cash on a periodic basis for daily spending. You don't even need to use a banking card for any of this.

I haven't been to a store that has refused cash and have never been required to use a banking app.

Where do you still use checks? I don't think I've seen one since the 90's.

I still pay most of my bills with checks. I also collect rent and pay rent with checks. Basically my entire financial life except for perhaps eating out and buying useless things online is mediated in cash and checks. This is very normal in my social circle.

Just because you choose to use e-banking doesn't mean that cash and checks are inaccessible, or even particularly inconvenient.

I have a hunch it depends heavily on your location. I have never seen a check in my life, and I have never heard of anyone I know using them. I wouldn't be able to say whether such a thing even exists here. Cash is still a thing but not universally accepted; not having a credit or debit card would be a major inconvenience. Banks can be hard to access because they've reduced offices and opening hours. You don't go there unless you really have to.

Fascinating. Where do you live?

Finland.

Like the sibling commenter, I'm from Finland. The same applies to most of the Nordics though; I doubt my kids will ever see a check. People simply don't use them and cashing one would probably be quite difficult (not to mention expensive).

Checks (cheques) don't exist anymore in New Zealand.

I pay all my bills with checks. Utilities, rentals, mortgages, taxes, everything. Why not?

In stores I mostly use cash, except for larger purchases where it becomes inconvenient. Those go to the credit card which I'll then pay with a check.

I don't think there are any businesses here who'd accept a check. Banks would probably do it for a fee, or at least require you deposit the money to your account.

Bills here are paid with bank transfer. It doesn't have to be done though online banking, but doing so is obviously easier.

> Have you actually tried depositing large amounts of cash on a regular basis? Sounds like a good way to get your account flagged and suspended.

1. OP said "make payments", not "receive money". Literally no one is going to give a shit if you make your mortgage or car payment in cash.

2. LOL, yes, I deposit cash all the time, including a quite large sum at least twice a year (charity events). Cash-based businesses are still very much a thing.

3. I write like $10K worth of checks every month, and deposit around $3K-$6K worth of checks every month. No smartphone required.

"Literally no one is going to give a shit if you make your mortgage or car payment in cash."

Are you sure? To get a mortgage they check the source of your down payment and it cannot be cash. Seems odd if they don't also check source for payments.

> Are you sure?

Yes, absolutely sure.

> To get a mortgage

I said:

>> make your mortgage or car payment

Making payment on existing loan != taking out a new loan.

> they check the source of your down payment and it cannot be cash.

If you mean literal physical cash: the main reason for this is that no one involved in the transaction is interested in taking on the risk of carrying briefcases full of cash across town.

If you mean money in a bank account that is of unknown provenance: This isn't really an issue unless you make a huge lump sum deposit just before closing and have absolutely zero documentation regarding where it came from. Even then, giant sums recently deposited isn't a problem. You just have to prove that it's of non-criminal provenance. Recent pay stubs or sales receipts will do.

That has nothing to do with the money being "cash" or not, though.

And even then, it's mostly about access to giant piles of credit. If you don't need to borrow huge piles of someone else's money, then no one gives a shit. E.g., I've purchased property with a cashier's check, which is about as close to literal cash as you can get without major security risks involved.)

> Lenders won't lend you money with a down payment of unknown provenance

That's actually incorrect, to my understanding. If you have 100k in your bank account for a year, the lender doesn't care when you pay your down payment out of that regardless of where it came from. They object when there's a recent transfer/deposit of that money because it could indicate an undocumented loan, throwing off the debt to income calculations.

Right. I think I must've got my edit in after you posted.

> They object when there's a recent transfer/deposit of that money because it could indicate an undocumented loan, throwing off the debt to income calculations.

Right. It's not some authoritarian plot. They just wanna make sure you're not a fibbing about your net worth before handing you a giant stack of their money. If you can prove the money is yours then they're fine.

It's not just the risk of carrying the cash. They have to comply with the Money Laundering Act.

In the eyes of your bank, the _least_ suspicious thing you can do is show up to your local branch and present your physical card and photo ID. Your bank will be much more cautious for large transactions done through an app, where the only authentication is a password and possibly an SMS message. Your bank will probably ask a few questions if you show up in-person to deposit $50k cash into a personal account, but it's not like you could avoid that by using their app.

This might be a generational thing.

But yes, you can go into banks and deposit money (even frequently, and in reasonably large amounts).

The flagging and suspending stuff is more what I'd be wary of using paypal or something similar, not an actual bank.

Paying bills in a physical branch will get expensive fast, at least here every bank that even allows that will take 3-10€ per bill.

Interesting; I wasn't aware. In the US it's still very normal (and free) to deposit/withdraw cash at physical branches.

In most of Europe, depositing cash rarely happens unless you're a business owner depositing the day's earnings. Withdrawals is easier from an ATM.

Many banks require you to call ahead if you want to make a large cash withdrawal, and if you make a large deposit you need to be able to document where you got the money from or had the authorities called on you.

I think I haven't deposited since I last emptied my piggy bank as a kid, probably in the early 90s. And I've actually never in my life withdrawn over the counter, I was given an ATM only card sometime when I was deemed old enough to use it.

There are plenty of banks out there.

None of the banks in the country where a friend of mine lives offer the services he demands: he is planning to live the country.

Many in this branch of discussion seem to be measuring their possibilities against a current situation in their area - while in some other regions the situation is worse to desperate - and they are not seeing a trend.

Definitely agree with the trend risks. The question is how to reverse it?

Normally, you would not support the trend. When a whole society but only a few support it - by buying, adopting etc. - there is probably little to be done but hanging to the escape routes you have.

You can (and in a way should) also wake up the sleepers, but it will be hard or less feasible to properly reach the masses.

Yup. This is one of the problems of this age.

There's always a trade-off between security and convenience, and similarly, there tends to be a trade-off between different forms of freedom. If you want the freedom to choose any bank without any inconvenience, then you'll have to sacrifice software freedom. If you want the freedom to fully control your computing devices, then you'll have to be selective about the bank you use.

My bank has a mobile friendly website? I'm sure it would work on PinePhone. Either way, this is goalpost moving. I don't even need to own a bank account. OP said government.

In Germany, you indeed need to have a bank account to pay your Rundfunkgebühren.

What does that mean? Is it broadcasting fee? I tried Googling it and I'm not sure.

Anyway, Germany used to require people to join the military and kill other people. Now they don't. Progress.

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