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Comment by PragmaticPulp | Hacker News Reader

I generally enjoy my AirPods. They are occasionally quirky, but most of the time they really do “just work” for me. The annoyances are annoying when they happen, though.

The strangest part is that the annoyances aren’t getting any better over time. At first I assumed that they were growing pains of an early product launch. Yet now we’re years into the AirPods experience and they continue to be just as quirky as when I first got them.

Apple seems so hot or cold on fixing their own bugs. Certain bugs get rapidly patched in the next iOS or Mac software release. Other bugs languish for what feels like forever. Do Apple execs just not use AirPods? Are they using a different configuration or hardware combination that doesn’t have these bugs? Have they just trained themselves to overlook the bugs because the workarounds have become a reflex? I can’t imagine working at any tech company where one of the flagship products had such a high rate of annoyances without having a lot of engineers diverted to replicating, diagnosing, and fixing it ASAP.

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I like "workarounds become a reflex". This is a very succinct way of describing one of the causes of why people often claim to have no issues using something that universally has issues.

A great example is the gaming PC vs gaming console war. PC gamers often seem to refuse to admit there's untold little quirks you have to deal with when using a general-purpose operating system and modular hardware to play games. They don't notice the workarounds they are continuously employing, because it's become a reflex.

> there's untold little quirks you have to deal with when using a general-purpose operating system

"Though initial iterations of the software for the original Xbox and Xbox 360 were based on heavily modified versions of Windows, the newer consoles feature operating systems that are highly compatible with Microsoft's desktop operating systems, allowing for shared applications and ease-of-development between personal computers and the Xbox line." Wikipedia

> and modular hardware

This is true. There are, e.g., fake GPUs that will make your experience quite bad. I always buy pre-build PCs from my favorite tech store, and I have personally avoided the problem. But Steam forums show that some people is not so fortunate. Also there is people trying to run modern games in very old PCs, consoles solve that problem by not running new games in previous generation consoles.

> newer consoles feature operating systems that are highly compatible with Microsoft's desktop operating systems, allowing for shared applications and ease-of-development between personal computers and the Xbox line

Microsoft created its Universal Windows Platform (UWP) to enable software to run across multiple Windows devices from desktops to tablets to consoles. It has not really been a resounding success, though it has some inconvenient limitations as well as business restrictions such as being tied to the Windows Store.

Even the Windows Store has moved away from UWP by supporting Win32 apps.

It's not about the OS technology in use, it's about all the practicalities of how it is deployed on consoles vs. on desktops. Things like immutable OS volumes, fixed configuration tested on the hardware, the extent to which they build higher level automation to do what the user expects, etc. "The Xbox One runs Windows" ignores all these details which make it a much more seamless experience than on a PC. The PS4 runs FreeBSD, but try gaming on FreeBSD and let me know how it goes in comparison...

Honestly, it's plainly obvious that gaming on consoles is much more seamless than on PCs. If you don't think so, you're not recognizing all the little quirks you're dealing with on a PC. When was the last time a driver update broke a game on a console? Ever had to install support software to make a game work well with a particular controller? Issues with overlays and system feature integration? Unexpected performance loss due to a weird configuration? Mysterious DRM malfunction issues? Windows Update gone wrong? Those things (mostly) just don't happen on consoles because it's a much more controlled ecosystem.

> When was the last time a driver update broke game on a console? Ever had to install support software to make a game work well with a particular controller? Issues with overlays and system feature integration? Unexpected performance loss due to weird configuration? Mysterious DRM malfunction issues? Windows Update gone wrong?

I agree (I don't get why people downvotes). My argument is that a quality PC does not have that problems. The fact that you can get a very cheap PC creates many of this situations. But I get into "No true Scotsman" territory with that logic. And that is why I agree with your arguments.

But those things I mentioned happen regardless of the hardware build quality. Hardware quality will avoid hardware issues, things like overheating or stability problems. The things I mentioned are software integration problems that are a natural consequence of the PC ecosystem being much more heterogeneous. It doesn't matter how good your hardware is.

There's just no way around the fact that when your ecosystem gives people much more choice and flexibility, it's going to be jankier than one which doesn't. It's just math. As you add dimensions to the problem space you reduce the fraction of the problem space you can test to ensure the user experience is good, and you rely on users to figure out how to reach a good point in that space, since you can't do it for them. If your dimensions are at least separable you might have a better chance (linear scaling instead of exponential), but modern systems are too complex to keep one issue from influencing others. It's a massive engineering problem.

The cost or "quality" of the PC is not a factor.

Just the simple fact that you have to manually install graphics drivers is a basic issue that you don't have to deal with on console. Just visit any of the PCgaming subreddits and you'll find plenty of examples to do with troubleshooting graphics issues, with people suggesting using Graphics Driver Uninstaller to try and completely remove conflicting driver versions etc.etc.

I remember when there were annoying stutters after the initial BF1 launch and one of the workarounds was to use task manager to change the CPU priority for the task. Here's an example thread for ModernWarfare https://www.reddit.com/r/modernwarfare/comments/j26zli/stutt...

Literally none of those issues affect console gaming. It's sit down and start gaming without any hassles within 15 sec of turning the machine on.

I've been a PC gamer for 30 years and it's a pain in the ass compared to console. With the new generation of consoles targeting 60fps, my final annoyance with console gaming has disappeared.

>My argument is that a quality PC does not have that problems.

Part of nvidia's drivers often contain workarounds and hacks specific to games. Sometimes they have gone wrong and bricked a game until the developer or nvidia can fix it. Buying a "quality" PC doesn't alleviate you from having to use nvidia drivers.

There's also a lot of little things. Like, you launch a game and there's no audio. Well, Windows at some point decided to switch audio outputs on you. You may have a lot of them. Line out, headphones, a bluetooth headset, a virtual out for streaming software, a monitor with built-in speakers - and now you've got to click the little speaker icon and try to figure out what should be selected, which may be named after the driver or hardware vendor and not totally obvious.

That's the sort of thing that for the most part just doesn't happen with the consoles, because they're limited and tuned for the intended experience.

> Well, Windows at some point decided to switch audio outputs on you. You may have a lot of them. Line out, headphones, a bluetooth headset, a virtual out for streaming software, a monitor with built-in speakers

I agree that I have found that problems. I just get the same problems with my TV (Samsung) when I have several audio devices. Maybe one can argue that is a TV problem, not a console problem. But non-portable consoles need a TV to work. So, the problem exists but it's moved somewhere else.

After your comment I realize that portable consoles are that ideal all-in-one, at least older ones without HDMI or Bluetooth.

On my PC each legitimate output device has a duplicate with the same name that does nothing. Every once in a while when I launch a game it will switch to the duplicate entry and I will have to switch it back. It's a quirk where the fix has become a reflex.

I've never had to deal with this on any console I've owned.

Disabling all the duplicate entries might help.

Or not. Shrug. Sound configuration is one of worst aspects of Windows.

I remember it being pretty good on Windows XP. I’d run programs like reaper with full control of my soundcard and it’s IO. It wasn’t until win10 that everything sound related became a chore. I can still find snippets of XP UI in win10 hidden under many layers of new age UX. Stuff like the “listen to this device” checkbox

You can rename audio devices to be something just friendly.

Right. You can. A workaround. This is something you don't have to do on an XBox or PS5.

And that's a workaround to make it easier to perform another workaround, the "why can't I hear my game" problem. So we're in workaround Inception now, nested workarounds.

Yeah, there's something to be said for playing an online game in which everyone has the same exact hardware (mostly). This is coming from a person who occasionally plays competitive games on a 2012 Thinkpad and comforts himself when he loses by saying, "it's ok, their computer cost as much as a used car. Don't feel bad about losing".

Happy 10th birthday T-530, 1 decade and still trucking!

>A great example is the gaming PC vs gaming console war.

Which war was that? A bunch of teenagers and man-children arguing online between PC vs console superiority is in no way a 'war' and is anything but a great example for "workarounds become a reflex". Online squabbles between rabid fanboys and brand loyalists should be left alone and not be used in logical debates.

>PC gamers often seem to refuse to admit there's untold little quirks you have to deal with when using a general-purpose operating system and modular hardware to play games.

I highly doubt your broad generalization is accurate. Do you have any sources for your claims? Every PC owner and gamer I know both online and IRL openly admits this hobby is not a smooth sailing endeavor. Again, I would love to see your sources for your claims, otherwise I feel HN is degrading into reddit where people make broad fact-less generalizations with no arguments and others upvote regardless because it gives them self-approval and dopamine hits.

>They don't notice the workarounds they are continuously employing, because it's become a reflex.

My personal example would be MacOS, when I, an outsider who never regularly used MacOS, point out various UX quirks that trip me up and cause issues for me rather than make my life easier as I was promised, I saw that everyone I know who is a long time user of MacOS got so used to the quirks that they formed some workarounds that turned into reflexes and just became part of the experience and not viewed as issue anymore but as tolerated and expected behavior. Basically for them MacOS is simpler because they already know the quirks and workarounds inside and out, not because it's objectively simpler than the alternatives. Same goes for long time users of Linux and Windows if you're coming from the other side.

So in the end it's not about one being objectively better than the other, it's about people always will have more issues with the things they don't know very well and be subjectively biased towards the things they already know and like. It's the nature of humanity.

> PC gamers often seem to refuse to admit there's untold little quirks you have to deal with when using a general-purpose operating system and modular hardware to play games. They don't notice the workarounds they are continuously employing, because it's become a reflex.

Not just a reflex, a cargo-cult reflex.

Look at the litany of optimization/debugging nonsense that is parroted across the internet. Registry fiddling, disabling Windows services, setting core affinities, divination by chicken bones, all sorts of nonsense - the impact of which is, of course, not ever empirically measured.

That one's actually a good argument for open source software, in my experience. While the cargo-cult culture exists everywhere less experienced users are involved, in FOSS land there's a decent chance some developer or power user (any developer, not just a project member) will stumble upon the problem and either figure out the real issue themselves or coordinate with the project devs to do so. I've done this many, many times over the years. Complete nonsense cargo-cult stuff doesn't tend to survive forever in this ecosystem, because someone eventually realizes it's nonsense.

In Windows land? Decades can go by without anyone knowing what's going on, unless someone motivated enough to reverse engineer the binaries involved shows up and finds the issue. That isn't very common. Though when it happens it can be hilarious [1].

[1] https://nee.lv/2021/02/28/How-I-cut-GTA-Online-loading-times...

Apple's stuff _always_ have issues and annoying ones. My Homepod stopped seeing any HomeKit devices. Reboot didn't help. I didn't feel like digging into it so I just went to bed. Couple days later out of all a sudden they start seeing stuff again.

Recently my Hue bulbs have decided to sometimes all show as unavailable in HomeKit, which is annoying. They normally revive themselves in a few minutes but I can’t figure it out.

Unfortunately no other home automation platform (Google, Amazon) lets you keep everything on your local network, and using Home Assistant would make using Siri for it harder, so I’m stuck with an annoyingly buggy platform.

> Unfortunately no other home automation platform (Google, Amazon) lets you keep everything on your local network

Exactly the reason I keep dealing with HomeKit annoyances.

You can use home assistant and HomeKit together pretty seamlessly. We have all our lighting automation as a zwave network though hass, and the lights are also included in HomeKit. We can use Siri or hass app or the native home app/widgets in iOS without any issues. And everything runs locally too.

At least their issues are relatively benign compared to the hot mess that is Windows. Had to re-install a friend's Asus all-in-one PC last weekend and god this was not fun. Took over a day worth of downloading Windows updates, battling Realtek's audio driver and Intel's chipset drivers until everything was finally working as expected (and most of the drivers are from 2016 - only God knows how much exploit surface these have!). Anything Bluetooth on Windows is still a hit-and-miss. And then you have to research on how to disable all the phone home crap, the ads and other bloat.

Linux is even worse, where even basic stuff such as suspend to disk or 3D acceleration regularly takes days or weeks worth of sifting through StackExchange posts, mailing lists, obscure blogs and 2010-era Debian Wiki posts.

And don't get me started on the clusterfuck that is Android. Got a new iPhone? No problem, transferring all the data is painless. Migrating in the Android world? Good luck getting even half of your stuff working.

Compared to all that, Apple is a fucking breeze to work with, because the competition is just mind bogglingly bad.

It's only bad for 3D because nVidia has their secret sauce (and corner cutting) in the driver and locked down firmware blobs that have very restrictive distribution.

If you have an Intel or AMD GPU everything either just works, or works with the latest drivers (might require an added repo if the card came out after the last stable release).

Yeah, Apple is a breeze but only if you stay within the crib prison they put you in.

New Pixel data transfer? Plugged in iPhone with the supplied USB-C -> A adapter, and all my contacts, photos, calendar data, etc. migrated to the new phone. Took less time than my mom migrating from an iPhone 6s to an iPhone 13.

Android isn't a fair comparison, since Apple is a single-manufacturer monoculture.

Samsung-to-samsung: I can give anecdata only but moving to a new samsung phone was completely effortless. The only things that broke, broke because there was a newer android OS version on the target (not much of that). This would of course break (and maybe worse) on iPhone -> newer iPhone.

> Apple's stuff _always_ have issues and annoying ones

True. I’m fully into apple ecosystem with iMac, Apple tv, macbook and phones. So, naturally I use airdrop a lot, to the point that sometimes I depend on it to work. But, every few days it just stops working. Even after turning off Bluetooth, wifi on phone and mac it just doesn’t shows the device. Sometimes I just give up and sometimes when I don’t feel like giving up I go up to even restarting devices. This is something that I don’t expect from Apple.

Tell me about it.

My last three MacBooks, including the new 16” M1, have inexplicably had issues syncing to iCloud for several days (sometimes weeks) until magically everything seems to just work as expected and I forget all about it.

It’s all part of the magic of owning Apple devices. They’re annoyances, but minor and usually easy enough to fix.

Yep. For one game, the launcher screen depends on an old version of a Microsoft .NET runtime that is no longer distributed by Microsoft, and the current version (theoretically compatible) is disallowed because the launcher has apparently hardcoded a dependency to a specific version.

Then there was another game where I had to install a different DLL to get it to run.

Then there was IL2 Sturmovik that was just plain broken for a long time on more recent versions of Windows. I of course didn't discover this until after the refund window...

i feel like i can't identify issues in my life because I am so used to doing workarounds. this is why everything needs to be tested by someone else that is completely separate from the work, their fresh perspective will point out such obvious issues and your first reaction should never be to balk and say "no but you just do it like this"

The more minimalist a system is, the less people seem to think in terms of "annoyances". In fact, simplicity fans seem to pride themselves on doing a bit more themselves.

Like, manual transmission people think of the constant need to manage it yourself as just how driving is supposed to be.

It's a big problem in Linux, where things can totally break and nobody bats an eye.

I guess I'm eligible to answer this as I'm both a Linux user and a stick shifter.

I hate Linux for when things fall-apart. But I also know most of the things are being made by devs because of their passion. My hardware doesn't fail because Linux is blindly arrogant, but because of the hardware vendors who don't support the platform or me (as I paid them money)

Manual transmissions are an extra level of engagement that's fun to drive and useful in many casses. My 86bhp car lacks torque and power, specially combined with its heavy metal body. When I need to overtake and I lack the power for it I can downshift and pass. Add in the rev matching, and it makes it sweeter and perfect.

In a country like India, you pay a good price for a reliable automatic. So that's money saved.

It's the same difference as a home cooked meal and a takeout.

Apple doesn't get slack from me because they know the hardware, the software and still manage to mess it up with loyal fans defending their bad decisions

This sentiment is seen in almost every response on http://discussions.apple.com, on Apple's subreddits and often in HN comments as well.

People are just too eager to jump on behalf on Apple - "but why you would rather not do this instead" (Why? Because I was looking for something else and I mentioned it for heaven's sake!) and these hacks and workarounds stack up while "Apple products and services just work" stays where it was in such Apple users' imaginations.

This is frustratingly weird and quite niche to Apple's user-fans.

For instance Apple's online services - the whole iCloud charade is a living and growing mess.

The SMS sync between phone and mac and in fact difference of basic UX options ("you can't select multiple messages on Catalina Messages app - not sure if it is added in later versions -- if you delete an SMS on phone it will still be synced to your mac Messages). And there apps are opaque in the guise of "simplicity" you just end up getting frustrated. I can go on for hours. Now as an Apple fan - but why would you not want those SMS to sync to mac as well? Yes, even if you delete them! What's the use of multiple message selection on mac Messages app - that's bad use case! Yes, yes, even though it is supported on iPhone - you don't get it!

The problem is the essential duopoly - Android and iOS - rock and a hard place.

Any time I search the internet for a solution to a problem with an Apple product or device, I intentionally exclude discussions.apple.com domains from my search results. I have never found a solution there, and the forums seem to be dominated — and I mean DOMINATED — by two or three ‘experts’ whose bottom-line is that Apple’s products work, so you must be doing something wrong.

One guy is convinced that uninstalling Chrome is the solution.

The go-to first response is “run Etrecheck,” after which they’ll chastise you for having installed anything they don’t recognize. And god help you if you’ve installed CleanMyMac. The only solution is to reinstall macOS and never do that again!

(They all seem to ignore that CleanMyMac X is now notarized and sold in the App Store...)

Stackoverflow > Apple’s community support. Every time.

> the forums seem to be dominated — and I mean DOMINATED — by two or three ‘experts’ whose bottom-line is that Apple’s products work, so you must be doing something wrong.

I've experience this first-hand, and it's annoying AF.

I wrote a post on Apple's forum about the years-old iOS celluar-draining bug[1], and one of these high-reputation "experts" (read: Apple apologist/shill) kept insisting that the OS corrupting its own settings and not handling the corruption gracefully was somehow all my fault - when I pointed out this was a clear OS bug (even linking to the Wikipedia definition for 'software bug'), his long-winded pushback reply boiled down to him essentially saying that "bugs aren't bugs". Beyond useless as a help forum with these clowns being allowed to earn those "reputation" points.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29764360

> The only solution is to reinstall macOS and never do that again!

Fuck the apple forums, they are usefulness. I'd like to add another type: return to apple for repairs alongside the 'reinstall os'.

There's gotta be a better answer than reinstalling the os! That's a nuclear option that should be a last resort. But it's recommended all the time.

Reinstalling macOS is no longer nuclear, in that it doesn’t materially touch your home folder.

Now it’s just a phenomenal waste of time.

I found the same about moving to GIMP from Photoshop. Granted, Photoshop has more conveniences and fancy features. But a good deal of the frustration is not GIMP's so-called confusing interface, just the habits I formed while using Photoshop. Now that I'm a GIMP user for a time, every time I go back to Photoshop, I find myself annoyed in the same way. I think this just boils down to people's natural resistance to change.

In my experience, the annoyances actually get worse over time.

I got my AirPods back when the original ones were released and the experience probably was as good as physically possible (short of including multiple radios so they can maintain connections to multiple devices in parallel and simply mix the audio client-side).

They then (2 years ago?) released this new feature where AirPods could automatically switch between all your devices which is just too slow and is more of an annoyance in practice, but even disabling the behavior made the existing experience much worse: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30085538

I agree. When I got my first pair roughly two years ago (after years of using various versions bluetooth earbuds you could buy on Amazon for $20) they seemed like magic. Take them out, they automatically and nearly instantly connect, and almost never had any issues.

I just bought v3, and while the sound is noticeably better, the connections are all over the place. At least once a day, the connection simply dies. Multiple times a day it decides to connect to another device that I'm not using. If you answer a call and then put an airpod in your ear, it's got about a 50% chance of connecting, after a multi-second delay. Sometimes it says its connected, but it's not, so the iphone isn't emitting sound from its speakers and nothing is coming out of the airpods, leaving me sounding like an idiot repeating "can you hear me now?" until I manually kill the connection and use the built in speakers. Absolutely infuriating.

Whoa I thought that was just me. It used to be pretty easy to switch the device AirPods are connected to. Now, AirPods connect to the right device in 50% of the cases, 30% of cases they do not, but I can click connect on the new device and it works, remaining 20% the only way to get things working is either manually disconnecting on the device they attach to or putting them in the case and trying to get happy scenario again.

To summarize, things are generally better but way less consistent.

It’s not just the AirPods, the experience is as crappy on the AirPods Pro and Max.

The experience is mostly crappy when you involve macOS. No problems moving around iOS here with my Pro's.

Yeah I totally know what you are talking about with it being too slow and unreliable. But it's also the primary reason I use airpods. They are the only device I know of that let me almost seamlessly switch between my macbook, iphone, ipad, and while running they connect direct to my watch. It's worth so much to me that I don't even consider any competitors.

And I will put up with a lot of quirkyness or waiting for connection to have that.

i don't know if it's limitations of the bluetooth protocol, or necessary optimizations in order to maintain battery life, but in my experience most battery operated bluetooth devices seem to have pairing issues.

i suspect that it's probably a combination of three things:

1) reliability is hard when on a power budget. if power was free, they'd just always be looking to renegotiate, but since power is limited, they probably are very miserly about this process which leads to getting stuck in states that require power cycling to force retries.

2) interoperability is hard with open standards, especially old standards that are complicated.

3) open standards come with limitations that sometimes cannot be worked around. (this is where i'm surprised apple hasn't just cheated as they usually do when open standards result in ux they find unacceptable, this leads me to believe the problem itself, of distributed consensus between multiple wireless low power devices with potentially noisy links, is actually very hard)

when you think about it, the technology behind wireless earbuds is nothing short of astounding. they're little battery operated wireless two node compute clusters that can literally fit in your ears, stream audio and maintain nearly perfect synchronization when rendering that audio in the most absolute basic use case.

I can say I have had all of the issues listed in the post with three different bluetooth headphones. Random disconnections, only left or right speaker working, drivers issue on anything that was not an android phone, having to turn off bluetooth on phone when using on pc, having to deactivate phone and mic to boost bandwidth for audio (night and day difference).

I don't think I will ever buy bluetooth earbuds or headphones again, also because those devices are terrible for the environment.

I've similarly found AirPods both "just work" from a user experience, especially compared to alternative bluetooth audio devices, and also are quirky from a reliability standpoint. There have been fixes pushed out in past, particularly with the earlier models, where fixes could be done via OTA firmware updates.

The remaining quirks all feel related to Bluetooth tech and, specifically, the low-power available to AirPods (compared to, say, my giant Bose headphones).

I can only speculate but I think AirPods are currently limited by the bluetooth tech itself. What I expect we'll see is apple will ship a version with a proprietary radio system. They probably won't be compatible with non-Apple devices but they'll be 10x better than today's AirPods (more reliable, simultaneous audio from multiple devices, even better battery life, etc.).

There's no guarantee Apple will pull this off. But I'd bet it's far more likely there's a team of engineers dedicated to this strategy as we speak than that Apple just "gave up" on one of their best-selling product lines as soon as the MVP proved there was a huge market.

Man, you sure are overly optimistic. That part about bluetooth doesn't make sense, tons of products work reliably with similar dimension/weight restrictions as airpods. If Apple with its army of engineers can't make their products work reliably, how could have much smaller companies succeeded? Btw one of biggest disappointments for me with airpods (pro) is weak bettery life compared to competition.

I am currently shopping around for new truly wireless headphones for iphone and not a single comparison has apple airpods/pro as winners in 2 most important categories (for me but I believe for many others too): sound quality and battery life. Same for their smartwatches but thats another topic.

Apple, or any company, sees that even product with such flaws still sells very well, so there is little pressure to fix things asap. That some engineers somewhere are working on next gen (or even 2 next gens in parallel) is expected, but these generational updates are very iterative and never revolutionary (that's what new product lines are for, for much higher price).

One anecdote from today - had a year end review call with my boss while being on sick leave due to covid. He desperately tried to pair his new iphone 13 pro max with his new airpods (not sure if pro or regular) and gave up after some time. It just didn't work and we had good old phone-in-hand call.

Could you give examples of some Bluetooth devices that work reliably?

If you know any bluetooth headsets that don't have similar quirks to what the post talks about, let me know, because otherwise I'm thinking this is Bluetooth and it wont get better until we ditch it.

Quirks of Bose AE2 that I'm dealing with:

1) Switching to the low fidelity Bluetooth headset mode when the mic is activated. Why does this still exist? I'd be happier if they just didn't add a mic if they can't support better quality audio. 2) The headset nominally supports connecting to two devices, except there's no mixing. One channel is primary and will override the other. Annoying when you're on a meeting on a laptop and a notification arrives on your phone and the audio cuts out to play the notification tone. 3) To add, sometimes Apple devices just play silence? Meaning, the secondary device will get muted and it will take a minute for you to figure out why it's not playing. There's no user control over this primary/secondary aspect. 4) Oh, yes, I use three devices daily which results in a lot of manual switching. 5) The devices or the headphones don't always automatically connect for some reason. It's not clear either if it's from me manually switching them or what.. 6) Endless issues with Spotify "Failing to play song" when the audio output switches. 7) Not bluetooth, but this headset gives the "Low power, charge me!" chime when the battery is low, even when plugged in and charging.

re #1: This is basically because it's written into the standard that everyone implements. There are non-standardized extensions to get around this that nobody implements because they're non-standard and a perpetual "This will be fixed by the next standard!". There are also codecs that mitigate the issue by solving the underlying bandwidth problem, but nobody implements those because there's licensing and thus it's not universal. All of this is made worse by the fact that there's really only a few vendors out there. Almost everyone buys the same stuff, which makes the same tradeoffs and the result is that everything sucks in basically the same ways.

Which is why people pay extra for Apple products, because they don’t make excuses like “this sucks because of the Bluetooth standard”, they build something that works even if it’s incompatible with non-Apple systems.

Funny you should say that because one of the issues with Catalina was MacOS forcing all headsets, airpods included, to use the terrible default codec I was explaining. Moreover, this then forces all other audio data on the system down to the same terrible quality [1]. The official response was that this was "expected behavior".

This is probably also the explanation for annoyance #3 in the article.

[1] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/282705/airpods-ext...

#1 was explicitly mentioned in TFA, so not sure why this is an oppy to say airpods fixes common bluetooth problems, instead it seems Apple is equally burdened by them??

So, I just switched from Android to iOS, and I've noticed that the bluetooth reliability is significantly worse than what I've become used to.

I switch from a Pixel 4a to an iPhone 11, and both my Bose QC 35 headphones and Sony wireless earbuds are having lots of issue that I never head on the pixel.

So, my takeaway is that iOS is behind here, though I don't know enough about the underlying tech to say anything for sure. Just my anecdotal experience...

FWIW, Android is now on it's 3rd (4th?) Bluetooth stack rewrite (latest being Gabeldorsh?). I haven't done Android dev in a long time, but bluetooth reliability was a real pain to get sorted even for Google.

> 6) Endless issues with Spotify "Failing to play song" when the audio output switches.

Are you on Windows? I have the same issue with iTunes on Win11

I'm a on Mac, but it's interesting that you have the same issue on an entirely different system. Clearly we haven't figured out how to reliably have audio devices popping in and out of existence, all while playing music.

I've used 100+ Bluetooth devices and ever single one of them had weird connection quirks. Hell every wireless protocol I've ever seen has been similar excluding some actual industrial stuff.

Would love to know which BT products are actually reliable. Seems like the best are only "reliable" relative to others which are "downright unusable".

My only other bluetooth headset is a set of Bose QC35s. As sibling comments reported, quality is about par overall. I find UX of Bose is worse on all counts when working with multiple devices. And the battery life of my AirPods is less on a single use, but much better overall considering I can recharge in the case.

My airpods, generally, also have to put up with more. I don't use my Bose with my phone or on the go which is, generally, where the AirPods experience 90% of their quirks.

That makes for a poor sample size though so would absolutely love suggestions for more reliable alternatives.

Edit: apparently I don't know how to spell Bose

> I don't use my Boss with my phone or on the go which is, generally, where the AirPods experience 90% of their quirks.

My experience is the opposite. When I'm not on the go, the likelihood that my AirPods pick up the right device is slim -- like trying to connect to an iPad on a complete different floor vs. the phone I'm trying to make a call on.

When I'm on the go, the only device they can find is my phone, and all works great.

Yeah, makes sense for that problem specifically. I don't really have that problem ever. All my problems are skipping audio, dropped connections in one pod, and other intermittent problems.

My Bose always connect to the wrong device in my home and have zero method to correct. So I'm quite satisfied with the AirPods which seem to get the right device 99% of the time (no exaggeration - probably use 4x per day and connect to unintended device maybe once per month). I'm sure it helps that my phone is always on silent mode.

Yes, bluetooth has plenty of unfortunate limitations. For example, there is no standard high-quality bidi audio codec in bluetooth spec (see https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/duplex-high-quality-audi... for detailed explanation).

Extend that to AirPods Pro. My right ear cup crashes periodically - then I can only hear out of the left side until the watchdog timer engages and nukes the left cup too. I frequently have to reset it by holding down the buttons for 10 seconds in order to get it to connect to anything. It frequently disconnects and refuses to reconnect if I take off my mask out from under it. It stops detecting my head occasionally. An iOS bug probably, but I can't change the Mic mode anymore when on calls - it just shows me them menu options but I can't tap any of them. And the ear cups started to smell, lol, but there's no clear way to actually clean them due to their, well, magnets. I bike to work and have to dry them when I arrive because sweat builds up under the cups. They're also just too big to fit into anything practical, so I end up just carrying them around in one hand.

All in all, they're fine, but they most certainly do not just work for me, and they're not a $600 product IMO.

Can I ask why you purchased them in the first place? They seemed very obviously to not be a $600 product from their announcement.

Are there any other over the ear headphones that provide great sound quality, noise cancellation, pair with computers and smartphones, and have a solid mic?

I’ve looked at the Sony XM1000’s and from what I understand there is some issue with Windows where if you enable the mic, it goes into some different Bluetooth mode that degrades the audio quality coming out of the headphones. Many wireless headphones are advertised to only work with smartphones.

I just want something that does it all, connects to all my devices, and works.

Wait is there a device that can do stereo AND mic? I’m not aware of any and I’ve searched long and hard. AFAIK, there is no way it is possible with the current BT spec. Are you saying your Apple headphones can do that?

A quick look through Reddit shows that no, they can't. https://www.reddit.com/r/airpods/comments/kg3w4n/airpods_max...

21h2 and more recent versions of Linux allegedly add these codecs, but I don’t know how that played out in the real world

I think it’s mostly on the device side. Both sender and receiver have to have the codecs available. TBH, I just recently learned you can go into iOS Bluetooth settings and change the device type to “speakers” and use your computer (at least if your computer is running Linux) as a speaker. It’s freakin magic.

Bose quite comfort 35 ii and the 700. We use them 4-6 hours a day due to covid homeoffice and couldn't be happier. IMHO if you want to have something better you have to switch to the studio section and give up the BT.

> I’ve looked at the Sony XM1000’s and from what I understand there is some issue with Windows where if you enable the mic, it goes into some different Bluetooth mode that degrades the audio quality coming out of the headphones.

I have the Jabra Elite 85h's and have the same exact problem on OS X from time to time. (I really like them otherwise, though!) I'm not entirely sure what it is.

probably because the bultiin microphone is enabled due to bluetooth limitations

I don't think there's really any headphones that provide "great"[1] sound quality and noise cancelling + bluetooth. There's necessary tradeoffs that need to be made and physical limitations that mean that sound quality and noise cancelling ability are kind of at odds with each other.

You can definitely get "good"[1] sound quality + noise cancelling, but for me at least most decent non noise cancelling headphones sound noticeably better than my Sony XM4s, even at much lower price points. I'm fine with this though, because I use my XM4s when I need to focus without being distracted by background noise and they do an amazing job at that.

(There's also the issue of bluetooth signal not being as good as wired, and the DAC/Amplification needing to be built into the headphones but I don't think that's having as much of an impact on the overall sound signature - it hasn't been my experience when using bluetooth adapters on some other headphones, and using the XM4s wired).

[1] Obviously peoples subjective idea of "good" vs "great" vary wildly, I'm just sharing my subjective opinion on things.

I got the Sony WH-1000XM4 as a replacement to a cheap wired Sharkoon RUSH ER2. It's like 300 USD vs 30 USD. Sony provides good sound quality + great noise canceling + bluetooth. But as soon as I switch on the mic the quality turns bad. It's abysmal with a old Win 7 Laptop and bad on a Win10 Laptop/iPhone. So for all cases which require a mic, I switched back to the cheaper wired one. Getting an extension cord for the wired one would have been a much cheaper solution. The Sony one only shows its real strengths when walking outside in a noisy environment.

I used my Developer Transition Kit credit, as I'd already purchased an M1 laptop and had no need of anything else - other than headphones.

If you are experiencing all of these reliability issues, have them replaced by Apple. My original AirPods Pro had some serious issues. Firmware would update on only one of the pair, and so preventing them both from connecting to the same device. Or one would just crash frequently...

After having both replaced I have had zero issues since. I assumed it was some hardware quirks with earlier models.

That's good advice. I'll set up an appointment.

>The strangest part is that the annoyances aren’t getting any better over time.

Like most of what apple releases lately. People claim apple maps is better now, but its still missing a lot of data around the LA area especially with local business that Google maps has no issue crawling, and generally shoddy navigational asks (like unprotected lefts). Siri has also gotten no better since its release 10 years ago now (wow), if anything it defers to coarsly googling my terms more and throwing me the first couple irrelevant results as a response. If I wanted to do that I would open a browser and touch to talk into the search field.

I hear you, though Google Maps still seems terrible with unprotected lefts in LA. Just yesterday, it directed me to make one one onto a six-lane road.

They seem rarer for me with Google maps. Imo I think rerouting is better with google maps as well. If I get an instruction like that I'll ignore it and turn right and Google will pick up a new routing before I get to the next intersection. If I do it with Apple it might ask me to do a u turn after a right turn and still try and make that left. To be fair I don't use apple maps at all anymore but I see it fail horribly whenever my partner uses their phone for navigation. Its missing a bunch of local businesses and restaurants and sometimes looses the GPS lock on the phone too (like assuming you are on the parallel road to the freeway and trying to route you back on rather than correctly assuming you are still on the 5 and didn't teleport onto surface streets)

If by "unprotected" you mean "no green arrow", in what part of the LA area is it feasible to avoid unprotected lefts? They are all over the place in my neighborhood.

If by "unprotected" you mean a left from a stop sign onto a street that does not stop, then I agree. They can be almost impossible. Waze was especially notorious for them a few years ago.

The latter I mean. "Take a left on pico from this stop sign, hold your breath and good luck, no one will let you in." Somehow google maps ignores these and prefers me to make a right out of a parking lot or a stop signed street and take my lefts at lights (or off the major arterial) seems like its just a simple set of rules you can apply to your navigation algorithm to avoid these entirely, but the fact that they are still there years later tells me the Apple maps designers really don't care too much.

It does seem like it should be simple to avoid those. I can imagine it might be complicated if the model treats turns as instantaneous and only considers edges in the road graph as taking time.

I would love a road navigation tool that gives more options to modify the cost of various route features other than pure distance/traffic. To me, Google is too willing to give a complicated route to save a tiny amount of time. It makes the driving more mentally draining. I would raise the cost of all turns, stop signs, and intersections where I don't have priority.

Apple could farm their data to see how long people wait to make turns it recommends and adjust the edge weight accordingly. I'm guessing that's what Google does.

The maps themselves are fantastic if you live somewhere covered by the latest round of updates. I think the business data will always be trailing Google Maps though. Google has their entire search engine to grab data, they crowdsource data via app notifications, and in cases where businesses are updating their own info it wouldn’t surprise me if they do it on Google Maps and just don’t bother anywhere else.

Siri does continue to be lame though. Driving is the one place I would want to use it for anything beyond timers and reminders, but I don’t dare because I can’t check to see if it’s doing anything dumb. Last time I tried to text someone while driving using Siri, it got picked up by my Apple Watch, which worked great, but also my phone, which picked the same message up and promptly sent it to a totally different contact.

I don’t care, I want google maps and I want the default to be google maps, but there’s no way of setting that, I even tried uninstalling apple maps and now when I click on addresses it prompts me to reinstall it.

Didn’t Microsoft get done for antitrust for similar dark patterns in the late 90s?

Apple seems to only improve peripherals (like the AirPods) with new hardware releases; not software updates. They make money based on units of AirPods moved.

Not strictly true in this case. Apple added a lot of additional functionality to the airpod pros over time. The tuning is hidden under the accessibility settings, but it’s there.

They have added some things to the airpods over software updates. But I assume they are pretty limited if they are already pushing the hardware to the absolute limit on release. A lot of the stuff they push over updates seem to be things they already planned to have but perhaps didn't have the firmware polished enough yet.

I recently upgraded from an iPhone XR and a lot of frustrating software problems just went away. Nothing to do with AirPods in my case, but it made me realize the effect of having an older phone with less processing power and less developer attention paid to it. I wonder if your AirPods problems might have to do with having older devices connecting — ie. the other side of the Bluetooth connection.

I have an iPhone 13 and I have all of the annoyances, often, except 6+7. In fact I have had these annoyances with all my iPhone and Airpods combinations. It's probably all due to bluetooth, even though Apple uses their own W1 chip to connect.

It's not always processing power. Some of the older phones had known issues, for example the iPhone 7 often had a faulty audio IC, and the iPhone 6/6+ had low RAM relative to its larger screen size and bigger graphic sizes.

Prior to the 8 and XR, iPhones had Bluetooth versions 4.0 or 4.2, which meant things were slower to connect, and also meant lower microphone data quality. Apple hasn't done any customer education around this. A lot of people with older MacBooks have poor microphone quality when using AirPods - but it's primarily their computer that is the bottleneck.

Most ridiculous bug I’ve encountered is that if you have Notes open in list view and with an external monitor, it will consume 100% CPU non-stop, killing the battery life and overheating the Macbook Pro and eventually physically damaging the device (screen connection fails).

It's amazing that these issues are exactly the same on both Airpods Pro and Max. You'd think the Max would have a better software stack given the claimed sound improvements.

I enjoy my wired headphones. The annoyances I face are one laptop without a headphone port. That's it.

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