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Comment by spchampion2 | Hacker News Reader

A lot of Americans really only knew about "red" and "white" wines back then (and frankly still do). Red was very often a cheap merlot, while white was a cheap chardonnay. I recall so many (so many!) terrible merlots and chardonnays from that era, that I was entirely put off of both for about a decade. Only recently have I started asking for either of them again, and I've found the quality has definitely improved. On the flip side, a lot of pinots have gotten lousy in the interim.

But drink what you like. Giamatti's character was so troubled in that film, and his advice was definitely questionable.

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"A lot of Americans really only knew about "red" and "white" wines back then"

At the release of Sideways, everyone and their brother knew the major wine varieties, and had opinions. Indeed, a major reason the merlot spiel had such an impact with so many is precisely because it was so popular. Many like to be a contrarian, so if something knocks on the popular thing that can have an impact ("who else can't stand Tiktok, right?"). Most of the varieties of merlot were very high quality, and I doubt the overwhelming bulk of wine drinkers could taste any deficiency (many can't even differentiate varieties).

https://www.guildsomm.com/public_content/features/articles/b...

That's a much better article about the rise and fall of California merlot, and basically notes that merlot had plateaued by Sideways release, and there's a bit of a cause/correlation mixup happening.

> At the release of Sideways, everyone and their brother knew the major wine varieties, and had opinions.

I think it's probably more accurate to say that everyone felt they were supposed to be familiar with the major wine varieties so all had picked up the terms and desperately clung to a few half-earned opinions because they didn't want to appear unsophisticated. But I think most people didn't actually have particularly strongly held or individually acquired wine preferences. (It's well known that even professionals can often not correctly identify what variety or even what color wine they're drinking.)

This is a social situation that's ripe for a radical opinion swing. Because everyone is trying to look like they know what everyone else knows but there's little "ground truth" (i.e. actual personal opinions) slowing down the change. So when a movie like Sideways comes out with a character who clearly cares deeply about wine and knows a lot and expresses a strong opinion. Well, I guess merlot's not cool anymore.

I agree with you to a point. Infrequent wine drinkers who want a casual option generally prefer a lighter, sweeter or more fruity wine. These people truly didn't like cabernet (too bitter for many), but they wanted to be "with it" and merlot was the hotness, so it became a go to. As the article I linked above mentioned, for these people pinot noir was always a better choice, but the hotness of merlot (at the time pinot was oft considered a dessert wine) made it socially less of a norm. Sideways, and people just generally discovering that there were other options, made it an easier social choice for many, and pinot noir was on fire.

As an aside, while I absolutely agree that most wine snobbiness is absolute horseshit (there is loads of it throughout the discussion in various other threads), that study on wine "experts" who couldn't tell the difference between red and wine is just terrible nonsense. It was some students who were recruited and smelled wines, given the visual cues of color.

> that study on wine "experts" who couldn't tell the difference between red and wine is just terrible nonsense. It was some students who were recruited and smelled wines, given the visual cues of color.

It's even less than that. The study showed that if people are primed to think they're drinking red wine, their responses reflect that. If the experiments wanted a controlled study on whether the subjects could tell red and white wine apart, they could have blindfolded them or told them the wines had all been dyed the same colour, and the students would have discriminated between them very accurately.

Anyway, like you I tend to discount the opinion of anyone who misinterprets this study's results in the way that the article does.

People should embrace being unsophisticated. I've gotten really good results by saying something like "Woah, I've never had orange wine before, I'm looking for something kinda dry."

> It's well known that even professionals can often not correctly identify what variety or even what color wine they're drinking.

This is demonstrably false, btw. Either those professionals you are referring to are completely untrained (just being in the wine business doesn’t mean you are an experienced taster) or it’s just complete bullshit.

>At the release of Sideways, everyone and their brother knew the major wine varieties, and had opinions.

Millions of drinking age drinkers in America then and today know nothing about wine. Perhaps I just missed the intentional exaggeration, but "living in bubbles" was a discussion I had with a friend recently and this struck me as that kind of line.

It's an exaggeration. But among people who actually drink wine -- the subject of this discussion -- I suspect the overwhelming majority understand the varieties, and maybe even have a presumptive preference. People who don't drink wine aren't really pertinent.

I'm a counter-example. I drink wine. I have no idea what anything is. I've never seen Sideways, and don't know what it's about. I can tell the difference between red and white. I don't really get any of the rest of it. I still like to drink wine. Just a glass now and then. Sometimes I pick out a bottle at the store based on the look of the label.

I think it is nice to know some of the different ways to analyze reds and whites. Dry vs. sweet, tannic or not. Reds, how fruity they are and what kind of fruit (cherry, dark/stone fruit or bright and berry). Earthy/funky or smooth and light.

To me, those are things that allow you to elevate your enjoyment of tasting the wine itself. Anything beyond that (knowing region or grape by taste) is turning wine into a hobby, which is fine, but not necessary.

Naah. Maybe - maybe - people who buy wine regularly might know.

But you'll come far enough with general guidelines (older = better, except some years are very good and others... less so) to please guests. Except for the amateur vinologist, but he gets to be happy about showcasing his knowledge.

I recently watched Vampire in Brooklyn (1995) for the first time, and there's a laughable exchange where Eddie Murphy says, "I brought red wine", and Angela Bassett says something like, "My favorite!"

American wine palette has come a long way since then

A long way, indeed. In 2019, even zombies drink chardonnay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRbjGwdcGxs

One of the better Columbo episodes, "Any Old Port In A Storm", features Donald Pleasence as a California winery owner with some telling descriptions of American wine culture in the 70s.

> and frankly still do

Oh, come on.

Even budget grocery stores separate their wines by region and grape.

Just about every American who drinks wine has their favorites, even if it just goes as far as something like "I like Malbec because it's less dry."

Sure they do, but does the average consumer understand the difference between the regions and grapes? Probably not. I bet there are even many experienced drinkers who could not identify them in a blind test.

In blind tests it's the same for beer. And colas.

Doesn't research show that even wine experts cannot do that?

It’s complicated. A lot of the research is misreported. The supposed study demonstrating that experts can’t tell the difference between red and white wine says no such thing. But people do love a narrative that takes the wind out of a snob’s sails, so the legend persists.

True experts can distinguish an astonishing number of characteristics of wine in a blind taste. Most people are not experts. The price of wine is also largely decoupled from how much any given person will enjoy it. (However, psychologically, you will probably enjoy a bottle you paid $100 for more than one you paid $20 for.)

Basically: Wine is not all just indistinguishable fermented grape juice, but most stuff written about wine is a combination of bunk and rarified trivia no normal drinker should care about. Drink what makes you happy.

Sidenote on wine pricing, heard on the radio: in Europe, the cost of everything but the contents of a bottle of wine is about €2.50 (or a bit higher). That covers the glass, the label, transport, branding of the chateau, etc.

Corollary: the wine in a €4 euro bottle is 3x as expensive as the wine in a €3 bottle €1.50 vs €0.50).

That broadcast was a while ago, so the details might not be exact. But the main point is that after the first (about) 3 euro, you're starting to spend money on the contents. Before, you're literally paying a few pennies for the wine...

Another feather in the cap of box wine.

That's probably true outside of wine-producing regions. In wine-producing regions of Europe, you can get a cheap bottle of wine for €1. It's often decent* quality too.

* well, better than the £5 bottles you get here in the UK

There are some variables though. Like the glass bottle, screw top vs. plastic cork vs. real cork, and quality of label printing.

They absolutely didn’t shy from the alcoholism. I went with French Merlots for a while after the movie so it wouldn’t look like I was ordering one.

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