Framework vs. Apple | Hacker News Reader

Framework vs. Apple

dche.cx

43 pointsaunty_helen30 comments

Badly written, one person's experience, etc etc etc. Mostly complaining about issues with Linux, not actually about the Framework laptop. Not worthy of the front page here.

And server fell over with just a few visitors.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220122213559/https://dche.cx/f...

> complaining about issues with Linux, not actually about the Framework laptop

If Linux distributions advertised as working out of the box by developers of Framework don't work as advertised... is it only about Linux, or is it about Framework Laptop, too?

Are there other operating systems that can run on it?

And the author does mention scouring Framework Laptop forums for answers to his problems and finding people reporting the same issues.

We never learned from the post if the touchpad issue was system related or hardware. Same for the brightness adjustment.

> Are there other operating systems that can run on it?

All the standard ones. Windows too.

The touchpad issue is multiplatform from what I've gathered on the Framework forums.

Unfortunately I can't test this on windows, as I mentioned, this is a work tool for me so just torrenting a windows iso isn't an option and I don't want to pay out 190USD to test something that may or may not be dependent on the OS.

Windows also isn't an option as it's not suitable for the development that I do. So any of the problems that I encounter on linux that aren't supported ultimately become a mute point as I can't switch.

Given that Framework support Fedora and aren't a Windows only laptop, I would ask you this, what is a laptop but the hardware and software it runs? They've been working with Fedora to get things right, but they still have more work to do as per the post and my explanatory comments here.

Brightness adjustment I just disabled, literally not going to spend any more time on that as it would be disabled anyway.

> and I don't want to pay out 190USD to test

Windows can be downloaded and installed for free these days. You've got a month for activation.

Regardless of the opinion on systems, I was interested whether the touchpad issues are going to be fixed with time on this model (software problem), or not (hardware problem).

Hey thanks for commenting, this is the first blog post I've done and I know it's a little rough around the edges. (it's also running a free tier gcp that I was watching if it was keeping up but called away)

I've written this blog post from the point of view of the first few days of use. I've had it for about 2 weeks now and haven't really wanted to migrate over.

As for it being one person's experience, unfortunately not. If you search any of the issues you'll find people on the framework forums complaining about the same things.

Congrats for publishing your first blog post. It's a big step.

>The other thing I really dislike about Apple is their stance on privacy. They're bad, like really bad on privacy. Despite the advertising hypocrisy, which since the porn filter debacle has been bunk, whenever you have your mac connected to the internet most of what you're doing is being recorded. There is literally 30+ daemon processes constantly phoning home and doing all sorts of telemetry.

Suggestion: You should have left this bit out or provided citations. It's such a gross exaggeration that it leans into tin-foil hat territory IMHO.

I'm curious about your experience with framework but I couldn't get past this part.

Hey thanks,

here's the details on that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881#29230318

Where does it explain/prove that "most of what you are doing" is being recorded. That's a really bold claim.

I understand that launching apps pings an apple server to check certificates (for example) but I've never heard much of anything more egregious than that.

The phrase "most of what you're doing" implies recording keystrokes, web browsing history + clicks (and so on).

"They're bad, like really bad on privacy."

That's an odd thing to say about a company so well known for its privacy stance the FBI tried to shame Apple to get backdoors put in after the San Bernardino massacre and they said no.

Sounds to me like the author should be using Windows, because it is not Apple and not Linux, but they have been duped into believing that this is the OS that shall not be named, if you want a shot at being a cool kid. I share the author's disappointment over no commercial business appearing to be able to take Linux and make it into a consistently good experience for new and veteran users alike - but that's probably more to do with the Linux crowd consisting mostly of people who seem to consider free as important as Free. All that said, I learnt next to nothing about Framework, so yeah - just Linux-on-the-desktop bashing.

I've used Windows and Windows Server before. I helped guys from MS debug an issue in the bowels of Windows at one point in my career.

But I can't really use Windows because of the type of work I do. It's a pain dealing with multiprocessing in Windows and Linux envirnoments to name a key sticking point.

While yourself and a few others have pointed out that this is mostly just Linux bashing, Framework isn't entirely without fault here. Some things I didn't mention on the article because it was already pretty long and boring, and also some issues I've had since.

In total, the issues I've had that I feel framework shares the bulk of responsibility for:

- parasitic battery drain of around 40% overnight (win/linux + exacerbated by your choice of expansion ports)

- the auto brightness

- still yet to be able to connect anything via bluetooh

- the speakers are terrible, think early nokia phone terrible

- the fn key placement

- when I put the laptop down on a surface with the screen open the screen will flex open to the point its facing the ceiling

- usbc expansion ports don't go all the way in. They're also very tight but I think that would loosen up over time

- the touchpad, while I haven't used it on windows, I would be suprised if it was better.

Overall, I like:

- keyboard

- 3:2 ratio

- 300 vs 800$ for 64gb ram

- being able to upgrade to a bigger hdd later on

So yeaaa it's not just Linux bashing and I did try to stick to the beaten path and installed the two different flavours they said would work.

> the fn key placement

You can easily swap those in bios in this and pretty much any laptop.

> when I put the laptop down on a surface with the screen open the screen will flex open to the point its facing the ceiling

This is an advertised feature and popular in a few laptop models. https://frame.work/blog/display-and-customizable-bezels For me it's a safety feature where the laptop with something or someone on top will go flat rather than break.

Thanks :) I've done that now. It was something I hadn't looked any deeper into after altering the caps lock to esc and not seeing a option to swap fn in tweaks.

This sounds like a case of misguided expectations. I like the framework laptop, but it's still very early days and there are bound to be some growing pains along the way. This would be like getting upset that the pinephone, as cool as it is, doesn't work as well as newest iPhone. Of course it doesn't.

If you want a rock solid computer that "just works", but also respects your privacy, just buy a used Thinkpad and throw something like Manjaro on it. You can set up your entire dev environment in an afternoon with zero hardware issues. You can get an excellent used Thinkpad for under $1,000 very easily on eBay.

>This sounds like a case of misguided expectations.

Exactly this. I had assumed I could just switch over to a vendor approved linux os and have things mostly just work.

And honestly could you blame me?

>Framework Laptop review: The anti-MacBook has arrived https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28239958

Wow, after reading that review, I definitely do not blame you. That review is very misleading at best.

The part I found interesting [edit: but apparently not true, see comments below] is about Apple:

> The other thing I really dislike about Apple is their stance on privacy. They're bad, like really bad on privacy. Despite the advertising hypocrisy, which since the porn filter debacle has been bunk, whenever you have your mac connected to the internet most of what you're doing is being recorded. There is literally 30+ daemon processes constantly phoning home and doing all sorts of telemetry.

> If MacOS Big Sur was around 15 years ago it would be considered a thin client. Another great privacy innovasion is that even though I don't use icloud or icloud photos or backup or anything like that, Apple still runs image recognition and face detection over all my photos with no option to turn it off. Big win for privacy right there.

Sounds even worse than vanilla Windows. I didn't realize it was that bad.

Because it's not. Nothing on this page is trustworthy or well reasoned.

Thanks for clarifying. I haven't used any Apple devices for quite a while, so I wouldn't know.

His claims aren't true. There's nothing recording your actions on a Mac.

You can completely disable analytics on macOS for both 3rd party developers and Apple itself

Here's a link to a previous comment of mine about what's going on under the hood of macOS at any one time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29229881#29230318

Notarization via http are something that can't be "turned off" and are telemetry at its finest. Blocking it at the network layer is the only way.

Looks like the site went down. Try: https://web.archive.org/web/20220122213559/https://dche.cx/f...

The author complains that he (I am assuming he) felt he had been hoodwinked by "paid" reviews of Framework. But this honestly felt like one to me specifically because of all the same propaganda in it that Apple peddles on why one should avoid Linux and pay the Apple tax premium and get a mac ("oh it's so hard to configure", "you waste a lot of time trying to get something working" etc. etc. - sure, there's some truth there. But I too remember wasting lot of time on macOS when I was new to it, and many things about it still frustrates me with no solution).

Apart from just superficially describing the looks of the machine and the upgraded hardware specs, the author doesn't make any mention of the modular hardware feature of Frame.work which is its real defining feature, and what makes it poles apart from the nearly unrepairable Apple devices. It seemed strange to omit mentioning that, when that's the major reason people choose it over Apple. I don't doubt him when he says that the trackpad may be crappy (maybe hardware or software issue). Bad luck. Switch to a mouse (is this like Apple saying you are using it wrong? :) temporarily. After all, he has bought the very first iteration of a completely new hardware. There are bound to be some minor issues here and there. We shouldn't forget that even Apple has had hardware and software problems in the past, when they launched newer iPhones or MacBooks models.

I get that the Linux hardware drivers of Frame.work might still need work, as this laptop is just the first iteration. But I also questioned why the author didn't install Windows or FreeBSD instead, if he was so frustrated with Linux? (That's one of those things that Apple fans no longer like to highlight - that Arm macs are now essentially mono OS computers that only fully support macOS, and all other OSes run crippled on it). If he is so frustrated with Linux, that he is willing to consider paying 3x the cost of the Frame.work to again buy a new mac and go back to the spyfest that is macOS (his words), then why not just test the spyfest that is Microsoft Windows on the Frame.work first? After all, however much some of us hate Windows, we can't deny that it supports the most hardware and software than any other OS in the world, and also works "out of the box" without much tinkering.

Still, despite the nitpicks I highlighted, I enjoyed reading the post and thank the author for posting it.

Yeah, that's kinda how it goes..

At first, "The Open Source Community" looks like a really big deal. Once you dig in a little, though, you realize that Apple has like 50x as many people working on this stuff as the entire linux community does. linux is great, but I don't think you can expect the same level of polish as you'd get on something with the Apple Tax

> Apple has like 50x as many people working on this stuff as the entire linux community does.

This is not entirely true. The companies working in Linux (and the majority of Linux development is by commercial companies) together can easily match and outmatch Apple. However, they don't care about developing the Linux GUI/UX, and the Linux community ... well it's a bazaar :)

Tl;dr: author dislikes using Linux on the desktop.

The author also says this about his 2017 MBP in the same article -

    The speakers no longer function, the battery life is at 60% and it's liable to bluescreen if it's under 40% charge and the CPU is loaded. The screen has the typical marks worn into it from the keyboard because Apple decided they didn't want a clearance fit.

Which makes you wonder about his Linux and Framework laptop dislikes.

I felt sorry for the laptop. I cannot imagine the working conditions it had to suffer. It's probably a dust haven inside, and the keyboard has never been cleaned once.

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