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Comment by empalms | Hacker News Reader

Every time an E Ink article is posted the patent defeatism is inevitable. I’m curious if there are other techniques to implement reflective(?) displays being explored that wouldn’t fall within the scope of E Ink’s defensible moat, or, if their parents are simply so broad as to stifle most hopes of accessible solutions and broader consumer/professional adoption.

Frankly, I’m quite sick of straining my eyes and circadian rhythm for 8hrs+ a day

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Qualcomm are sitting on a reflective display technology "mirasol" that:

1. Doesn't hit E-ink's patents 2. Is colour 3. Has fast lcd-like refresh rates

The reviews of the few devices that were made were excellent. The main problem seemed to be the quality of other aspects of the devices that featured them. I find it incredibly frustrating that this hasn't made it into the mainstream.

From wikipedia:

"As of 2015, the IMOD Mirasol display laboratory in Longtan, Taiwan, formerly run by Qualcomm, is now apparently run by Apple."

So even if something comes out of it - it would be probably just locked into apples garden.

Ah for fucks sake

That’s just Apple reusing the physical factory not the tech. Qualcomm completely abandoned the technology and couldn’t find anyone to license it.

Thanks, but that is allmost equally disappointing as it hints there were major problems with the technology.

I guess they didn't look hard enough. I would have bought the tech for $1.

I realize you are mostly joking, but even having their lawyers go over the licensing contract would cost them far more than 1$. Actually transferring the knowledge of how to manufacture this stuff would probably require low 7 figures for them just to break even on the deal.

If only there were deep pocketed people that took bets on this kind of stuff instead of chasing the web3 bandwagon.

I don't think they are, but Apple coming out with this tech would be ideal: everyone copies Apple!

An Apple Watch with an always-on Mirasol display would be great.

Mirasol is very dead tech at this point. https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/the-rise-and...

I think they tried to ramp things up before it was ready, and nobody was interested by the time they got it to work.

I saw a device once at the Qualcomm office it really was very nice, bright colour in full sunlight. I don't think they ever made them cheaply or very large.

Sharp Memory LCDs are close. They are active, but so close to being zero power you could keep them running with a stern glare. They have absurd contrast, can be updated at tens of hertz or faster, and are high resolution. They’re never made in large sizes, but you will see them on things like the Play Date.

It looks like they only have 8 colors?

Yes there is. Sharp has their memory-in-pixel LCDs which are reflective and have less power consumption than traditional LCDs for some tasks. They've been used in stuff like the Pebble watches and the current Garmin Fenix line. I think a few of their denshi note devices have also used them. I don't think they make them in sizes big enough for stuff like monitors though.

The contrast on these screens is so low, I'd love to get little e-ink screens on the sports watches. Right now, especially in mixed-sunlight dappled forest kind of backgrounds, you really need to take a hard look at the screen to read anything, which isn't safe if you are trail running or mountain biking or something similar.

Please watch makers, put a little eink-style screen on a watch! Even if it looks like 1st Generation Kindle screens, and is only black/white, it will still be an upgrade!

To paraphrase Planck: technology advances with the funeral of each patent.

Maybe not originaly, but as of today it very much seems like it. Related: maybe we will be done with covid, by the time the vaccines patents run out.

Didn't at least Moderna and maybe others publicly state they would not litigate any patents related to covid vaccines for the duration of the pandemic? Or am I completely misremembering this?

Lots of things have been said - and I vaguely remember something too, but also a dispute that US pushing for relaxing of the patents and the EU not, because Moderna is german based .. in any case it is not so easy, as it is not just about the vaccines, but for the production of the vaccines to set up, you need to licence or buy a lot of other stuff ... which is why my joke was obviously a oversimplification.

>because Moderna is german based

Moderna is US based

https://enwikipedia.org/wiki/Moderna

We're you maybe thinking of BioNTech? (Makers of corminanty vaccine aka BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine against Covid)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioNTech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-...

When 1/3 of the population refuses to get the vaccine, patents are the least of your problems.

Have you seen Dasung's Paperlike 253 monitor?

[1]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aUizYZNbAE

Amazing, but does it stray into E Ink’s protective sphere?

No doubt there are manufacturers around the world who are exploring quality general-purpose reflective displays for consumer applications, the tech has been around for some time. I could be mistaken but it seems more a question of commercial viability rather than technical capability

This looks like greyscale only, when I believe the squeeze in topic is high color displays (which are only mirasol, eink, and slurry AFAICT).

There's the attractively named DES Slurry technology which I think has even been in shipping devices:

https://goodereader.com/blog/e-paper/des-display-electronic-...

> Every time an E Ink article is posted the patent defeatism is inevitable

Here, we go again. I've only read that here (repeatedly!) on HN and blogs that then cited throwaway HN posts which never respond to my requests for at least some verifiable evidence. Have a look through my comment history.

> that wouldn’t fall within the scope of E Ink’s defensible moat, or, if their parents are simply so broad

what moat? please tell me, I keep asking. To me, it looks like all of the people making these claims have no clue about the display industry. It would be the equivalent of me coming on a search engine forum and then alleging Microsoft of using a patent moat to prevent progress in operating systems, is that true? I have no clue but it sure sounds good even though I have 0 evidence. I hope my point is clear.

What kind of evidence are you looking for?

History of full of example of patents slowing the deployment to technology, the latest clear example is 3d Printing which really only became affordable to the home user, and abel to be hackable by people doing novel things with it after the patents expired

I would assume the same thing would happen with eink

> What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Normally, the person making a claim or allegation supplies some evidence. You know like if I accused Microsoft of using patents for holding back operating system development, then you as presumably a software expert would rightly ask me for evidence. Is my point somehow unclear? Commenters on HN repeatedly make this claim and if you look at my comment history, each time I ask for evidence I get exactly your kind of reply or the link to that throwaway post (also on HN) and a blog article (that refers to that same throwaway post! infinite loop!) or best of all patents.google.com/search?q=eink . That suggests to me that these comments have no basis in evidence and the authors of the comments aren't even involved at any level of the display industry to understand what they're talking about.

> I would assume the same thing would happen with eink

Evidence?

So you are looking for active suppression. Aka law suits?

You deny a general chilling effect that patents have on the market overall? That people will, companies, and insterors will simply avoid patent encumbered technology

You simply refuse to acknowledge that generally accepted reality

//Sidenote. Stop asking me and others to look through your comment history. I am not going to do that. Make your points here and now

> You deny a general chilling effect that patents have on the market overall? That people will, companies, and insterors will simply avoid patent encumbered technology

So I can just simply say Microsoft has patents and therefore operating systems are not progressing because of that? You realize that's what you're claiming.

> You simply refuse to acknowledge that generally accepted reality

Your reality doesn't match mine. I work in the display industry.

> Stop asking me and others to look through your comment history.

I'm not going to spend my time educating you repeatedly.

>>So I can just simply say Microsoft has patents and therefore operating systems are not progressing because of that? You realize that's what you're claiming.

In part yes... Look at the suppression of UNIX do to SCO.. I mean hell this is recorded history. I am honestly surprised I need to even debate this. SCO effectively killed Unix, and harmed Linux and BSD

Software patents have a long history of suppression innovation in software

>Your reality doesn't match mine. I work in the display industry.

This new age of dueling realities is a false. There is only one reality, and mine is based on recorded historical fact, your is based on personal experience and anecdote

Mine is actual reality, yours is a belief

>I'm not going to spend my time educating you repeatedly.

Nor am I

> This new age of dueling realities is a false. There is only one reality, and mine is based on recorded historical fact, your is based on personal experience and anecdote

I'm confused. What "recorded historical facts" were provided for this claim that E Ink is using patents to prevent progress in the display industry?

> Mine is actual reality, yours is a belief

Ok. Good for you then.

In the 70s, the oil companies were allegedly buying patents for 100mpg carburetors and locking them up so nobody could use them. I asked my dad (Air Force) about that, and he laughed. He said the military could desperately use such technology, as supplying fuel to the military machines was a terrible logistical problem. The military would never, ever let lil' ole' patent law get in the way of that.

I have no idea what you're trying to communicate. I reread your comment three times and I am still unsure.

It's a historical example of a fake patent moat.

And how is it evidence in this case?

I'm not convinced the issue is patents. It might just be that eInk is great for a few nice applications, so there just isn't that much demand.

IMHO, it's an example of path dependence. If it had evolved during the CRT -> LCD era, we'd be looking at a very different present.

As is, it's competing against 120hz, mass-produced LED/LCD panels that can scale in price from tablets to TV screens.

It's hard for a "new" tech to have enough of an economic use case, so as to fund its own R&D, so at to become the best version of itself.

When does the original parent run out? Will that be the end of this or are there other “process” aka bs patents coming?

Good question.

Skimming the uspto’s documentation, identifying the term does not appear to be a straightforward process [0]. Someone with more experience in the matter might be able to say.

[0] https://www.uspto.gov/patents/laws/patent-term-calculator

> When does the original parent run out?

ten years. so just after the world collapses. it's so great that we are blocking the development of vital tech /s. i mean, imagine a world without today's level of production of laptop screens/OLED TVs/LCD TVs/phone/tablet screens. all those toxic chemicals. there's so many things we don't need a flashlight being shone in our faces for, and (as someone else in this thread already mentioned) our circadian rhythm being disrupted for.

of course e-ink tech and the health of our eyes and sleep is just the tip of the iceberg. in the larger perspective capitalist firms are suffocating the earth with their single-use, non-modular, non-upgradeable, black box e-waste. they're not even 'tools' to me because the living and breathing Silicon Valley AI is using and abusing us (the workers) through these 'products'.

i abhor the intellectual property system and monopolized vital technologies, it means capitalism makes the worst technological tools.

> capitalist firms are suffocating the earth

Communist countries are the most polluted countries in the world.

https://kafkadesk.org/2020/08/12/poland-stands-out-as-the-mo...

??? Poland isn’t a communist country.

Neither are Hungary, Czech Republic, or Slovakia. This guy is just really confused I guess

They all were not very long ago. The pollution didn't happen overnight. Much of their polluting industry was built by the communists.

https://www.perc.org/2019/05/17/socialism-is-bad-for-the-env...

> Communist countries are the most polluted countries in the world.

what world economic system is committing mass ecocide and crossing our planetary boundaries by exhausting natural resources?

Zikon http://www.zikon.com ClearInk https://clearinkdisplays.com

Zikon looks like it only makes low-color small screens.

Clearink 2.0 looks amazing but apparently it was sold to a Chinese company and they haven't had any public announcements since 2019.

The one laptop per child had one but never went anywhere

It had a transflective LCD.

...or if they can simply be produced in a jurisdiction which does not recognize this patent?

...and then NOT sold in jurisdictions where the patent is recognized.

This does not seem like a difficult problem to solve, compared to the actual engineering, production, and scaling challenges.

The problem would require turning the entire global IP & supporting legal systems on their head. WTO, nation-specific laws, etc.

Technology seems to move a lot faster than paradigm shifts in government.

This is like saying that, if you want to use a particular prohibited plant or compound, you need to first end drug prohibition and the worldwide system of cartel profiteering.

While it is most certainly a good idea to do that, you don't need to wait until the process is complete to include these items in your diet.

Then we're talking about different things, because I was thinking in terms of mass market adoption. A few instances of gray market or IP "theft" here and there isn't going to cause much of a stir. But if Samsung/Apple/other companies want to make a large scale retail offering then it won't work under the current global network of IP protection. As a result, these same companies with the biggest budgets to make progress in research won't devote those budgets to IP they don't own or can't license at a profitable fee.

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