Amazon activist’s firing deemed illegal by labor board officials
bloomberg.com
bloomberg.com
Imagine behaving this way. How do you look in the mirror and feel anything but revulsion? Happy that this guy's shitty behavior and Amazon's toxic culture is being put on blast like this. Hope Daequan gets a massive settlement.
I was fired for this, ultimately because I was not aggressive enough with the team.
You get toxic managers like this in toxic companies because it is the only way to not only get promoted but to survive. I recognized early in the pandemic that I could either be the person I wanted to be, the leader I wanted to be, or have a job in 6 months. I chose the former, but don't blame people who are forced to choose the latter.
edit: I should clarify that I do mean forced to choose the latter in that last sentence. There is a difference between a 30k/year worker being moved to a 45k/year manager role and needing to keep that job to survive and a 200k/year software engineer choosing to behave this way for a 250k/year job.
Because from their perspective, things don't look like that. From their point of view, it probably goes something like this: "The worker is supposed to work extra hard, but now they are resting, AGAIN! Now I'm gonna say something so they finally start working again" without considering any other perspective about situations.
It's really hard to read people without speaking to them, and most middle-managers just try to read people even though most people are honestly pretty shit at doing that, so they misread situations all the time.
In this particular scenario, notice it says "I'm thinking..." instead of "I said...". Not sure why they didn't tell their supervisor "I'm hot and about to faint", but knowing the average supervisor at Amazon, I do understand why you wouldn't talk about it.
As an SRE it's my job to make sure the computers I'm responsible for are working properly, and to actively pay attention and gather information about whether that's true. If there's too much load on the site for our current set of servers to handle, even if it's not my job to actually order more, it's certainly my job to say something to the people who can. If we're okay now but we won't be in a month, that's also my job. And if a disk fills up on a server and it stops working, "Oh, I wasn't monitoring disk space, and the program never logged anything" is no excuse. Nor is it an excuse that I'm not good at guessing what problems are likely to happen; that, also, is my job and why they look for people with experience doing this job successfully.
Isn't there all the more reason that someone whose job is looking after people and not computers should figure out if they're overworked or about to be overworked and if they're in comfortable, humane conditions?
And if the manager is competent and actually does this, then he probably will end up managing something more important than Amazon warehouses. Don’t underestimate the mediocrity and pettiness of the people who end up in charge of petty things.
"Because Amazon never trained me in the basics of my job as a supervisor. Which is to understand obvious the fact in order for our workers to be sustainably productive, they need to take healthy rest breaks now and then -- especially during crunch time. Otherwise Amazon will lose. And because whatever natural sense of intuition I may have had about these issues was thoroughly beaten out of me by the time I got through all that Core Values training they made us do."
I was already under so much stress from work that I had part of my intestines bind up for a week, the doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong with me so they decided to give me predinsone... I felt sick so I went home on a Saturday, after 'only' hitting 50 hours for the week. My boss called to yell at me and tell me to come back to work, the next thing I clearly remember was being in a hospital.
I still had to work for that POS for 2 years after that happened. For a long time I blamed myself, until a year and half later when my mother was within an inch of life in the hospital and I wanted to leave early and see her, he said "Didn't I already give you a day off for that?"
As for what kind of person that is? Narccists. And they can be very damaging to their employees if they aren't rooted out from management quickly.
But they can be very useful to burn through people to get shit done and raise profits short term. A timemachine would be interesting, to compare different times and see whether narcism is deep rooted in our genetics, or if it is our culture that promotes them .
After being what I consider a very talented member of our industry for 15 years and having no career advancement whatsoever, I’ve been asking myself over the past couple years whether these experiences are to blame. Getting reamed out all the time seems to have had a lasting impact on my ability to take ownership, do the kinds of things you need to do to get ahead, etc.
How so?
https://www.nysfocus.com/2021/11/23/a-homeless-amazon-worker...
I currently work with someone in a professional job who does an amazing job of dodging work.
“Did you get that document signed off last week?” - “Oh, I had to take my cat to the vet as it wasn’t drinking water” - “ok, but this week?” - “definitely”.
Rinse and repeated for a couple months. Every week is a new excuse.
If you asked her she’s say “I’m working extra hard hard” and “management should understand”. But no, she’s just great at dodging work and coming up with excuses. She can play the system well.
I’m not saying this person wasn’t illegally fired and Amazon is wrong, but it would be odd to not hear Amazon’s side.
The thing that was found to be unsupported by the evidence.
When the government charges someone with a crime and someone asks “whats the other side”, do you say the same thing?
This would go to trial if not settled. Only then would the labor boards decision be based on an actual weighing of all evidence.
Arbitration and mediation is a far more common way to deal with disagreements in civil society, and that's what the board has done here.
Hardly a finding of guilt.
If a violation is believed to exist, the region will take the case before an Administrative Law Judge who will conduct a hearing. The decision of the Administrative Law Judge may be reviewed by the five member Board. Board decisions are reviewable by United States Courts of Appeals. The Board's decisions are not self-executing: it must seek court enforcement in order to force a recalcitrant party to comply with its orders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Relations_Board...
And “[NLRB] will issue a complaint if the case does not settle” sounds like some nice leverage to have.
If I were this particular worker, knowing the NLRB will force at least that, I would ask for something much higher to settle. Though I suppose if you're homeless, you may not have that option to wait.
Back pay and reinstatement are possible outcomes (in general for complaints, tbh I have no idea for this one), so it could have a real effect on the wronged.
This country has no safety net and that's terrifying.
It's not childish. It's a totally reasonable expectation of how the world should work. Don't pass that off as childish, instead ask why the government is failing to meet its most basic obligations.
It's only naive because the government has totally failed the people. There's no reason (other than a system designed to protect the interests of the wealthy instead of the needy) that it works this way. We should forge a world where such expectations aren't naive.
No safety net whatsoever?
It is terrifying and unfortunate for those who do not have that luxury though, and strong local communities can help there. We need to do a more. But I think in all cases where I have the option I'd prefer to rely on those close to me than the government.
But it also emphasizes how much impact one can have just helping those in need directly instead of complaining about how crappy the government is.
Sometimes that's the case, but all to often your family breaks the net in an attempt to catch you and end up homeless as well.
The government's role is not that of a protector of people, but instead a protector of its own autonomy. That is, government carries out a means of control (law, tax, policy, decree, etc.), and protects its ability to control from threats local and foreign. That is completely independent to the wealfare of its citizens.
The ideal of a government having a role in the safety, welfare, health, or interest of the citizens it controls is bizarre. It's a view that presumes goodness in group, where there is no indication of that ever being the case at any point in human history. It is, in a more disturbing and worrying light, a view that reassigns the government as a kind of parental figure, when it should be abundantly clear that nothing of the sort is the case. It would be like a newborn chick, presuming the snake in its nest a protector, instead of a looming threat. The issue is, leaders are paid to lie and assure citizens of the opposite. Without a great amount of personal investment - or first hand experience - some may even start to believe such tawdry, grasping hisses as fact. The actions of such a cabal is apparent once it is measured.
Ignorance to that does not make you stupid, or childish, or any other number of things. It simply means that you did not know, what you later learned. From the sounds of it, this is a thing that has bothered you, and I am sorry to hear that it has weighed heavily on you. Just keep in mind that you are not alone in this sadness. It is a thing that may pass. Just keep in mind the facts of the situation you are in, and that anyone - ANYONE - who claims to do whatever "needs doing" to be in "the public interest" is most certainly one who moves about on their stomach.
On a related note: It may be beneficial to point out that, in a similar vein, police officer have no legal responsibility to protect citizens or their property - their role is not of protection, as some sort of "public utility bodyguard", but instead one of law enforcement. This is a slightly more nebulous point, as the so-called motto of law enforcement (in America, at least) is "To protect and serve". The fact of the matter is that it has been affirmed in SCOTUS that no law enforcement officer will be held responsible for failing to act to protect a citizen, even to the point of grevious harm or death. Laws are far more telling of the reality of the thing, than any non-binding, hopeful motto. A motto is merely a desire of public perception.
Seriously, the number of people who have had to mop up their kid's blood or pick chunks of their dead loved one's brains out of carpeting is depressing to think about. If you've got money there are people who will come and do it for you, but those services aren't cheap.
Police won't even pay to repair a door they broke down in error. https://reason.com/2010/01/26/dc-police-raid-wrong-home-city...
The property damages are bad enough, but they also don't do anything for the mental trauma they cause when they force you to stand handcuffed and naked in the middle of the room while a team of cops swarm around taking video and destroying your things, or they make your kids sit right next to the corpse of the family dog they murdered after busting in. It's beyond unacceptable how little help people get from the government even after they were directly abused by it.
Even the lawsuits which may or may not get you anything at all are expensive, time consuming, and stressful yet you somehow have to manage it while processing everything that happened to you.
> During his second week at Amazon, Smith was approached by workers involved in organizing the Amazon Labor Union. Although Smith loved his job, he thought there were things that could be improved. In particular, he said, he was concerned about the warehouse’s extremely rapid pace of work and lack of breaks.
https://www.nysfocus.com/2021/11/23/a-homeless-amazon-worker...
> Everyone else working around me was working at their own pace and he was just on me sending me more carts to sort and telling me to work faster
One reason he gave for joining the union was "the warehouse’s extremely rapid pace of work."
Reasonable people acting reasonably is how we got to where we are, and there are a lot of people who aren’t happy with the results. I’m sure you would like those people to remain calm, but I don’t know that it’s wise to expect that they will continue doing so forever.
Wait, are you saying he should take a step back and make fewer good decisions? You don't think this was a major bad decision, but you also don't think he should have made it?
I'm trying to follow the line of logic that says that people who make mistakes should stop doing anything else even if they're not making a new mistake. I mean, that sounds a lot like saying that he made a bad choice and therefore he just shouldn't participate in society now regardless of the role or appropriateness of his actions, even after serving his sentence. And if that's the implication, I'd push back against that sentiment pretty hard.
I'm saying he should not trust his own decision making process right now, considering how often those decisions have led him to a negative outcome.
"Wait and see" is very tricky advice to give to someone who was working at Amazon out of a homeless shelter. How confident are you that staying homeless and not taking steps to try and improve his working conditions would have had a better outcome for him?
I am skeptical that "this had costs" is a good enough reason to say that this was a bad decision. A big part of coming out of rock bottom for people is the active decision not to stay at rock bottom, so if you don't think it was a major bad decision and you're just pointing out that it was risky... that's not a good enough criticism for me to be sympathetic to. From what I can tell, pretty much every life decision is risky when you're homeless.
There's also something of a chicken and egg problem here. Bad jobs are sustainable because they hire desperate people. If you're advocating that people who have made mistakes and ended up in desperate places shouldn't do bold things or make major life changes, then that is essentially saying that they should stay in those positions (even though I know that's not what you mean to imply). Who is going to challenge the status quo around desperate jobs if we say that the people working those jobs aren't supposed to advocate for themselves?
But I think the pushback comes from the response/followup to that statement. We're on a forum of relatively privileged tech people, and I think it's good for us to talk about the fact that others don't always get to take advantage of the rights they have on paper, and it's good for us to advocate that they should be able to.
There's pushback to these kinds of comments in the same exact way that there's pushback to comments that, for example, say that Google is tracking everything, and people just need to understand that. Okay, you've identified something about the current world that people don't like, but that is still happening. Now what?
The average privileged person in tech doesn't need to learn how to keep their head down, they need to learn how to get very angry when underprivileged people's rights are taken away, and they need to learn how to make a bigger, more public fuss about vindictive social policies towards people with criminal records. It's one thing to acknowledge that society is cruel towards people with a criminal record, but the followup should always be, "and that is unjust and we should change it".
There is some value in recognizing reality, but there is also value in being outraged over outrageous things even in situations where they are common.
Some companies are good to invest in. Some are good to be a customer of. Some are good to work for. But very few companies are all three.
Amazon's definitely not the last of those three.
Anyhow, I don't know anyone who works for Costco. Do you?
Costco Wholesale Corporation $481.61 +$480.73 54,628.41%
Amazon.com, Inc. $2,852.86 +$2,851.13 164,805.20%
S&P 500 4,397.94 +4,277.54 3,552.77%
https://g.co/finance/COST:NASDAQ?window=5Y&comparison=NASDAQ...
The most surprising is how Kirkland clothing had been picked-up by the street wear communities. From my observation, this only really happens to "good" companies that we, the older generation, would thought of boring.
The story goes on and on about the general topic on other Amazon-related labor recent news, but I find that the total information about this specific case in this article is approximately 1 sentence.
What did the worker do, what did Amazon do? 0 information. Not a lot of journalistic content for a "Bloomberg Equality" desk.
1) It's a bloomberg article, their style is short and to the point, their goal is the outcome. They would rather be first and concise than thorough.
2) The bloomberg article is about the finding about the complaint not the details of the complaint.
[1] https://guides.loc.gov/this-month-in-business-history/februa...
In a well functioning company where managers and employees are well-treated, the Union is at best an extra step, and it does actually prevent direct interaction in some cases. That said, it a badly run company that exploits its employees, talking to management is dangerous for workers.
I have no idea here but, as an example, I’d expect the behaviour you describe if someone tried to mix Recaptcha V2 and Recaptcha V3. They might get a score from V3 and, if that score is low, they challenge with V2 as an “escape hatch” to prove you’re not a bot. But then they might have messed it up and redirect you back to a V3 check which still gets a low score. Cycle repeats.
In fact, they may well be testing an upgrade from V2 to V3 which could behave the same if they test both at once instead of A/B test.
This is pure speculation. Probably 100 other ways they can mess it up.
Let's hope the complaint is sustained. It's bad enough that this tactic is even tried. The right to unionize is meaningless if organizers can be silenced this easily.
It's difficult to balance at-will employment, the right to fire people for cause, and the protection of union leaders and members. But there have been far too many cases like this in the last few months alone to believe these are all justified by individuals' behavior and not attempts to stop unionization.
To play devil's advocate, a sociopath could recognize the PR problems it creates for a company to fire someone working toward unionization, and therefore start agitating when it becomes clear they're about to be fired, or just before they do something they know would otherwise be over the line.
That doesn't mean everyone working toward unionization is a sociopath, but the population of people fired "while unionizing" will contain both sets of people, and therefore be larger than you might expect.
There's this idea in the tech crowd that laws governing circumstances that aren't quantifiable or boolean with zero doubt or error are either entirely impossible or tantamount to just anything-goes subjectivity of judges.
But the entire purpose of a system of laws and the courts is to match the ambiguity of the rules to the complexity of life.
Because, as it turns out, it's the cases that can be captured by a fixed set of algorithms that are almost non-existent. Which is sort-of the problem "smart contracts" ran into, and that motivated them to create the useless simulation of real-world ownership that is NFTs.
You expressed skepticism that this many people could be fired for legitimate reasons while promoting unions.
That makes sense if you assume that misconduct and union organizing are independent variables. But since individuals engaged in misconduct have the incentive to become union organizers to make it more expensive for the company to punish them, that isn't true, and the observed result would be expected either way.
Your original argument was that the uncertainty was resolved.
> But the entire purpose of a system of laws and the courts is to match the ambiguity of the rules to the complexity of life.
The entire purpose of a system of laws and the courts is to let what the law actually says happen unless the balance of political power strongly favors something else happening, in which case the other thing happens and a justification gets retconned by the judge.
We all know how big corporations work. They have a big book of rules that nobody reads and therefore everybody violates continuously. Then if anybody screws up or becomes disfavored, management opens up the book to see which rule(s) they violated so they can be punished or fired for cause. It's the same thing that happens with laws and prosecutors.
It works the same way whether the reason they're getting fired was the same as the rule they violated or not. It's that way on purpose because it makes it easy for management to fire someone for things they're not allowed to prohibit, by finding something the target did which they are allowed to prohibit.
But that still doesn't tell you which thing it was in a particular case, and a judge doesn't have any good way of knowing that either. Probably the best you could do is look at whether there were a lot of other people breaking the rules, but everybody else has the incentive to conceal that because anybody who admits to breaking the rules would be subject to firing as well, which the company would have the incentive to do both to show that they're being consistent and to punish anyone who admits that breaking the rules is common.
The ambiguity was created on purpose, but that doesn't make it easy to resolve.
The NRLB processes mediation for labor disputes. Its decisions aren't binding, and it's common to proceed to a lawsuit or arbitration even after the NRLB rejects someone complaint.