Wisconsin Judge Prevents Nurses from Going to New Employer
postcrescent.com
postcrescent.com
This is on top of Wisconsin being an at-will state and there being no formal employment contract in this case. I'm not even sure how the judge is legally able to do this considering the material harm to employees.
There seems to be a lot of discussion on this at r/nursing
Who cares about matching compensation? This is about the right to end employment and seek employment elsewhere. Right to provide a living for yourself and your family is a fundamental human right. It's appalling that this wasn't thrown out of court immediately. I'm not a fan of non-compete clauses, but at least there is a voluntary contractual component.
In a broader sense, it's terrifying that this has even gotten so far and I fear it'll only get worse with more and more liberties being stripped away for [current emergency].
Tangentially, ThedaCare's Level II Trauma accreditation (which hangs in the balance due to the departure of these workers [1]) should be re-evaluated.
[1] https://www.wispolitics.com/2022/thedacare-seeks-to-protect-...
Additional context:
> Timothy Breister, an Appleton resident and one of the seven employees involved in the systems' dispute, submitted a letter to McGinnis Friday before the hearing describing his experience.
> One of his colleagues received an offer from Ascension that was attractive "not just in pay but also a better work/life balance," which caused others on his team to apply, Breister wrote.
> After approaching ThedaCare with the chance to match the offers they'd been given, Breister wrote that they were told "the long term expense to ThedaCare was not worth the short term cost," and no counter-offer would be made.
https://news.yahoo.com/know-battle-over-fox-valley-235851212...
Or any other gender. There is no draft.
We're all required to register with selective services in case there is one, though.
Over the past couple of decades, in the private sector employers have crafted the norm of at will employment. Then during the previous administration this at will idea found it's way into civilian federal service with the requirement that federal employees complete not one, but TWO years of new employee probation. This, all because, you know, employees are lazy and shiftless. The sole purpose of this "at will" employment trend has been to guard the interest of corporations.
Now dig this... In Wisconsin, it is not unusual for a new nurse, during onboarding, to be compelled to sign a form acknowledging that a FOUR week notice to quit is required in order to vacate a position. Then, buried deeper in the paperwork is a form that says that your employment is “at will.” So, they can fire a nurse on a dime, cause hey, "at will." But, the same nurse must give a 4 week notice to quit?
Also, there are certain healthcare organizations that, if a nurse does not work out their notice, or does not provide advanced notice to quit, the company will pay all unpaid hours at MINIMUM wage. I personally know of two nurses that had to go through the time, expense, and stress to hire an attorney who to press the issue and the organization in order to be paid what is actually owed.
Also, as a nurse, if one is to refuse an unsafe assignment, or speak up about an unsafe assignment, it is not uncommon to be threatened by administration to be reported to the board of nursing for patient abandonment. When really, how can you abandon patients that you have not taken responsibility for? But, who has the time, or energy, to die on that sword, especially when safe or not, there are sick patients that need care. Also, it is not uncommon for management, as they are punching out at 5pm, to compel nurses to hold over to cover staffing shortages. Again, threats of patient abandonment.
These things that I am describing are not one off situations. These things happen routinely. Nurses have been over worked prior to the pandemic. Then when the pandemic hit, we became overworked selfless heroes, working in trash bags. Now that the nation, all the world really, is experiencing pandemic fatigue, we are being referred to in the press as selfish and money hungry wenches abandoning facilities, leaving a wake of staffing shortages as we depart to become guns for hire to the highest bidder. Which, by the way is at will employment at it’s finest.
Now, the same corporations, who championed “at will” employment, treat nurses as an expense rather than a valuable finite resource and they have decided to spend money on legal fees rather than paying the extra $7/hr that the nurses were asking. The hospital would have retained their staff and we would not be having this discussion.
But, instead, they are seeking to set a precedence, that in dire situations, nurses ought not be able to quit their jobs. Under the guise of protecting patients that don’t even exist they are attempting to interrupt the these nurses ability to make a living and the nurses are not even their employees anymore. Capitalism at its best, Ascension healthcare, paying what the market demands in order to hire employees with valuable and rare skills.
This whole issue, to many of the nurses ai've talked to feels like Theada Care is trying extend the concept of compelling nurses to work, against their will, so future patients won’t be “abandoned.” They argued that the public at large would be at risk without the nurses being under their employment.
Theda Care raised the alarm asking "where will the poor public receive their care?” I’ll tell you where… Across the street at the other hospital. You know, the one that values their staff and pays a competitive wage.
Hospitals, I'm pretty sure, receive the exact same reimbursement from insurance whether they are staffed adequately or understaffed. If this is so, then hospitals actually profit when they are short staffed.
Finally, we live in an age of a pandemic and emergency orders, issued by governors, that are in some cases extremely broad. For instance in Wisconsin, under the emergency order, patients lost the right to sue for malpractice… Patients could not sue at all, this included for errors that occurre during the delivery of routine care or during the course of elective procedures. This was unnecessarily broad and extremely protective of corporate interests at the expense of regular citizens. Just one example of the broad strokes our covid emergency order was written in.
Finally, many commenters have raised the constitutional issues that are at stake in this situation. To most of us, these constitutional ideas exist in some ethereal space completely disconnected from our reality. They are important to us, but they seem like distant schoolhouse rock ideas. We don’t “see” constitutional questions, we feel oppressive working conditions that rob us of our ability to earn the living that we want, in the way we want. These conditions have robbed many of us of our soul...
SeNd HeLp pLeAsE
In essence they are arguing these nurses have a non-compete, when they dont. As a judge I would approve this, disallowing the nurses from working for their new employer but also the old employer must keep paying them to sit at home. That'll put an end to these frivilous lawsuits quickly.
"On Friday, an Outagamie County judge ruled in favor of ThedaCare and issued this order:
“Make available to ThedaCare one invasive radiology technician and one registered nurse of the individuals resigning their employment with ThedaCare to join Ascension, with their support to include on-call responsibilities or;
“Cease the hiring of the individuals referenced until ThedaCare has hired adequate staff to replace the departing IRC team members.”"
https://www.wbay.com/2022/01/20/thedacare-seeks-court-order-...
Also if I were one of these employees I would simply not show up to the old employer, they can go f#ck themselves.
Imagine this scenario. There are two heart centers in a city. One of them decides to hire the doctors and nurses from the other heart center and does so and then massively increases prices. I’m not a lawyer but I think this sort of thing is not permitted (or desirable).
This may provide some more information.
I, and I suspect many others, are not aware there was any legal mechanism for a government in the US to prevent you from selling your labor to someone else, assuming there is no contract forbidding it.
I don't have a clue if there is a provision addressing group recruitment in those regulations, but it wouldn't be shocking.
In general hospital regulation has lots of room for improvement...there's this idea that more hospitals will be more expensive and that it is good to move services to lower cost facilities. Neither of those make all that much sense. Competition and utilization are good things, not bad things.
Would be nice to know what state or federal law doesn't allow this type of behavior.
Raising healthcare prices due to market power for any reason is a problem regardless, and one that should be solved with regulation and market forces on the hospitals, not restricting nurses’ freedoms.
And again, the regulatory tool to fix this kind of problem is not restricting nurse freedoms even if it did make sense
Company B can poach nurses back immediately.
It’s just like non competes. They’re mostly unenforceable but employers don’t want to risk someone trying to enforce it so they just won’t hire you.
> The point of the injunction isn't to come up with a perfectly fair solution. It's to prevent irreparable harm, as might be caused if the only level 2 trauma center in the area can no longer function. Any claims for compensation that the nurses have are still valid and can be settled later.
As someone whose only law training is watching law review channels on YouTube I agree.
Basically getting paid at the same rate rather than an increased rate is repairable harm (by paying money if the nurses win), forcing downtime at their clinic is not.
This assumes that the old employers have some kind of legal standing to make their victory at least plausible.
For example, is it legal for a town to, let’s say, select 5 people and say they can only work as firemen for the local fire station and no one else is allowed to employ them because we absolutely need a fire station ?
It's probably not that great to have a fire station staffed by firemen that don't want to be firemen.
Party A: the firemen. Party B: the city.
A want to stop providing a service for B. B want A to keep providing the service. On all precedents, laws, and common sense they are allowed to do so. B claims that this will do irreparable damage to life/property/society and ask a judge to mediate the conflict and also to make B keep proving the service while the conflict is being mediated.
In this specific case a fireman could not simply walk off the job in the middle of suppressing a fire, the city position is that firemen are always a critical infrastructure and either the firemen claim that the city is at fault for some reason or they guarantee continuity of the service they where providing.
In addition to that, employees aren't property (as of 2022). They have certain rights and liberties that can't be taken away.
So my original question still remains unanswered.
Whether employees are property is a separate matter; In may situation the assumptions are
1) the firemen hold a specialized job with specialized requirements
1.a) it would take considerable time to replace them
2) their service is critical
3) they took responsibility for providing a service
4) the city did everything right and there is no material need to leave the job
I am not surprised by this story being more nuanced.
Another even more convoluted case: can all the personnel of a nuclear power plant walk off mid shift with no one to keep it working safely?
Some jobs also include taking responsibility of others life, a best effort to keep the service running is not too much of a stretch.
Hence the incentive for the employer to provide appropriate compensation and hire sufficient redundant staff.
If you want redundancy and reliability, then pay for it. Limiting labor sellers’ freedom is unacceptable, especially when the labor buyers have no such expectations of commitment and can stop buying labor anytime they want. Society cannot have its cake and eat it too.
This employer must have been grossly underpaying staff to have a whole team up and leave, especially educated professionals.
If the management also fires all the safety critical employers and leave the power plant without any workers to keep it safe that is also a crime.
This position is quite simple:
if X is very very bad then causing X to happen is illegal.
whether the fault is the employee or the employers is for a court to decide. But if a city remains without a fire brigade or a nuclear power station without safety critical worker it is someone's fault.
Only if X is loss of life and it happens on-the-job due to motive or negligence, not when they are off the clock or just quit (at-will).
> But if a city remains without a fire brigade or a nuclear power station without safety critical worker it is someone's fault.
Unless there is a specific contract in place, there's no obligation and AFAIK there's no law to force them either. Happy to be corrected.
There is "downtime" at the old place either way, since the nurses are not going to show up at the old hospital on Monday anyway. From the TFA:
> That means the seven health care workers would not be working at either hospital on Monday.
Note:I would have to see the court ruling to see what the basis in law is
So the damage you’re worried about being done? I don’t want to discount the damage this might do to the 7 people who tried to change employers, but ThedaCare wants them to stay, working, which means getting paid, for that time, and this is unlikely to realistically affect anyone in a completely different industry and profession.
Was it a good or fair call by the judge? Hard to say, but the “this will set a new precedent” types of arguments against an order or decision rarely end up setting the kinds of sustainable precedents people imagine they could.
I assume the judge believes that legislature's intent when making Wisconsin an at-will state was that this state of affairs would never protect individual employees and always be used to protect the interests of employers. I imagine he's right about that, too, although it's a disgusting thought and the employees will eventually prevail.
This is an important right to protect.
Seriously, read the laws, you are just spouting misinformation.
I liken it to being able to sue your competitor for buying the last widget in the open market that you also needed to manufacture your product. In what way is that an enjoin-able action?
But maybe my legal understanding is poor.
https://www.wjiinc.org/blog/outagamie-county-justice-the-fbo...
https://reddit.com/r/nursing/comments/s8tdki/shots_fired_our...
Unfortunately, seems like none of the documents are available for download.
If I were any one of those employees, I would quit effective immediately and not work a day more in the old facility. It serves ThedaCare right! They made poor business decisions by declining to pay each of those employees fair compensation. Losing them is the consequence. Their case against Ascension will not hold water.
More American workers should take note and follow suit. Do not accept poor work conditions and low wages. Collectivize. Refuse to work for bad employers and take everybody else with you. This is our power to make change.
Judge reversed the ruling!!!
For example, you can't even construct a new healthcare facility in most states unless a group of bureaucrats agrees there is a "need" for one https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/certificate-of-need.asp
Here is an entrepreneurial doctor trying to add MRI machines to his practice, stymied by the glorious government of North Carolina https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/31/17629526/m...
There's nothing that says a Level I trauma center needs to exist... except planning (largely by states) to try and ensure it does. And a lot of ensuring availability means balancing profitability against access to the market.
A VC firm financing a facility across the street, until it loses interest and both implode financially, is of no good to anyone.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/10/america-cant-fix-its-...
So it's generally accurate to say "You cannot be a physician in the United States without the federal government's permission." (At minimum, indirectly via position funding)
And since we generally require a credentialed physician at some point for most care, that trickles down the entire system.
Or talk to the new hospital ask for 3 months and work for a 3rd company and then quit after 90 days.
Unfortunately, this isn’t really sarcasm anymore.
I can only conclude that the Judge is a closet socialist, or worse, a communist.
Every time something goes wrong in capitalism, folks like to claim socialism or communism. This is literally capitalism.
But I quoted the ruling well above, it doesn't say that they can't work for the new employer, just that the new guy has to either make one person available so the other can continue to operate or it can choose to cease hiring more staff. So they can be employed by the new employer for more money, they just have to help this place limp along until it can find people to work there (which... I can't imagine anyone wanting to after this).
Presumably this isn't so much for the employer's benefit as for the public so that they don't lose access to a medical facility with the particular licenses it has.
But yeah, I don't think anyone argues that this business isn't too dumb to survive after it rejected their counter-offers when they had a new job in hand, what the hell did they think was going to happen?
If you ask any CEO if they're a capitalist or not, they will enthusiastically agree. However, employees are considered part of their capital which is why they will gladly toss in things like non-competes, assignment of inventions and float things like suing employees for failure to give proper resignation notice.
The goal here isn't to retain employees. They've even mentioned that they felt no need to attempt to retain them and this injunction solely prevents them from working at their new company. This is simply to punish them and to try and scare current workers to prevent them from doing the same. Will it work? Probably not. Though hopefully people start realizing that things like at-will employment are solely for the employers benefit, not yours because of the other legal ways they have to punish you if they so desire.
Actually the headline appears to be just plain wrong, if you look at the other threads I quoted it there. It doesn't bind the employees who left at all, it asks the new employer to make one person (not necessarily even these folks) available so they can continue to operate.
This place deserves to go out of business, frankly. The ruling seems aimed only at making sure that there's someone to care for people who need medical care in the short term, not so much for the benefit of this stupid employer who shot themselves in the foot.
Executives get a heads you win, tails you lose situation for no reason. It was their job to make sure the place is offering sufficient compensation to stay staffed, and if they failed, they need to pay for the damages.
ThedaCare shot themselves in the foot by having to pay lawyers, legal fees, get new nurses, pay for any services they hire out of the new company to maintain their capacity, etc. which is going to cost a lot more than they could've gotten with the counter-offer. Meanwhile the workers still get to work for the new place at higher pay. They are not being enslaved at the current place according to the temporary injunction I read. The new place merely has to help the old one provide medical services temporarily (for which they can, and certainly will demand compensation).
They absolutely should be firing the ThedaCare management, though. They really screwed this one up badly.
The judge seems to be just trying to make sure that the patients of ThedaCare don't suffer for the mistakes of the hospital management. ThedaCare is putting themselves on the hook for plenty of extra costs with this stupidity, and they likely will have to pay significant costs over this for their failures in hiring nurses--and competent management.
That the government would help them enforce their exceptional control over their employees, at least to the extent of making their lives hard enough in the short term that they would either have no choice but to return, or would serve as an example of what happens to anyone who thinks to leave in the future. So far, they seem to have thought right.
They didn't get that. The injunction doesn't cover the employees at all, only the new employer, who either has to make someone available so the original place can continue in operation for a bit.
So it seems like they're working at the new place with the new, higher wages and the old place is going to pay legal fees + whatever compensation to the new employer.
Financially, they've only managed to screw themselves even with this injunction. I quoted the injunction text in another thread on this story, BTW, since the headline is flat out wrong.
Saying capitalism will just work (the invisible hand) is as naive as those who think unfettered communism would work. In both scenarios, there is a tendency for powerful groups to capture the market.
That's a strawman.
I said the article in question, where a judge is telling people where they can and can not sell their labor, is the opposite of capitalism. Because it is.
What you mean to say is this doesn't follow what you think capitalism should be, aka capitalism in theory. This is capitalism in practice, like it or not.
But I'm not sure it matters since the headline is a flat-out lie. It looks like they will actually get to start at new jobs, at most the new company has to send one person (not necessarily any of these) to work at ThedaCare (while employed by the new company with new wages) so it can operate temporarily while the courts sort things out.
And ThedaCare has to pay their lawyers, compensate the new company for any use of their staff, hire new people, deal with the PR fallout of this (and probably no one wanting to work there), etc.
But refusing to acknowledge that means we can't fix it. It implies we just need to lean more into capitalism (or whatever we want to call USA's goings ons) to fix it, when that's what got us here in the first place.
Then you can see why "well, it still happens anyway even in a system where that's a rule" leaves you kinda talking past each other.
Basically, it seems to me like capitalists throw up their hands and do the "no true scotsman" whenever something doesn't follow their theoretical thinking. Which honestly is exactly what you're doing. Oh, this doesn't track? Well, that's because it's not capitalism, we have a nomenclature problem. So just throw out the thing that we don't like?
Like it or not, capitalists, socialists, communists, etc. etc. all have to contend with the reality of their systems.
The five characteristics of Capitalism are 1)Economic Freedom, 2)Voluntary Exchange, 3)Private Property Rights, 4)Profit Motive and 5)Competition
The linked story would violate several of those.
1) is a political right but capitalism is an economic system so it doesn’t really say anything about that.
5) is market economy and with 2) you get a free market economy
Literally all capitalism is: "Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership and control of the means of production and their operation for profit."
Turns out if someone owns enough capital, they can do exactly what you claim is impossible in capitalism.
The only legal way to do that is if a laborer signs a non-compete agreement. These didn't, and that's why it's not enforceable.
How much leverage by the way do you think a worker has in capitalism to _not_ sign a non compete? Are they not fairly standard in industries? Why do you think that is? Who does it benefit?
No, you misread. What the judge tried to do (and failed) is not possible in Capitalism. You can't force an employee to not work at a competitor. An employee who signs a non-compete agreement is not being forced to not work for a competitor.
Consent is a thing. As an analogy, you're saying if someone consents to sex, then rape is allowed as well.
What the fuck are you even trying to say about consent? Just to humor you, forced coercion isn't consent. Most don't have the means to say no to a non compete. As a real analogy, it's like you as a boss asking a subordinate who needs a job to have sex with you. They reluctantly say yes, is that consent?
Maybe try and answer my questions instead of redirecting in a weird way.
How much leverage by the way do you think a worker has in capitalism to _not_ sign a non compete? Are they not fairly standard in industries? Why do you think that is? Who does it benefit?
Under Soviet communism you couldn’t do what you propose but definitely under current Chinese communism.
The Chinese system is not communist, it began the transition to state capitalism decades ago.[1][2][3]
[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/how-china-went-from-communis...
[2] https://newpol.org/china-bureaucratic-communism-bureaucratic...
[3] https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/Hirson_USCC%20Testi...
But regardless how you want to define China, it yet proves that capitalism by itself does not guarantee any freedoms at all.
There are other asian examples of this, like Singapore, Taiwan & South Korea.
I don't think you'll win too many people over to the collectivist side with incoherent points like the above.
We'd do better if folks wouldn't resort to just ignoring the bad sides of either.