Do you have good sources for the claims above? It looks pretty revisionist, and matches Soviet propaganda, to suggest the Soviets weren't aggressive and expansionist.
Do you have good sources for the claims above? It looks pretty revisionist, and matches Soviet propaganda, to suggest the Soviets weren't aggressive and expansionist.
The propping up of communist states worldwide was an attempt to not get surrounded by American client states / satellites / allies.
Look at China propping up North Korea. Why? Because they see South Korea as an American client state and they do not want to have a border with it.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay#Strategic_Air_Com... for what made Soviets think maybe NATO is serious about first strike.
The parent post is not "making up" rationalizations nor do I see an attempt to justify Soviet repression.
The Soviets were victims... earlier, during World War II, when their territory was razed to the ground and their people targeted for total racial extermination, and also faced the brunt of that war -- the most destructive war ever -- and did most of the blood shedding. That has to leave a permanent mark in the national psyche. A lot of what they did afterwards was making sure nobody and no country was ever in the position to do that to them, again. They definitely were creating buffer zones to protect their homeland, and I believe most modern analyses agree on this.
This doesn't make them saints. Yes, they were repressive and brutal to satellites they believed felt out of line. But it's not "making up rationalizations", it's what actually happened, and it does explain things.
Also,
> Not expansionist at all
Most powers were expansionist in some way or the other during World War II and its immediate aftermath.
Most powers are expansionists in some way at any point of time in history. I think a quote from "Seventeen Moments of Spring" is quite appropriate here.
(the dialog is between a soviet spy and a german general while they are on a train. The war is almost over at this point):
General: States are like people. Static makes them sick. Borders suffocate them. They need movement, this is an axiom. Movement is war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T2s7WM4Uqk (no english subs)
World War II didn't start with the invasion of the Soviet Union, it started with Germany and the Soviet Union agreeing to dismember Poland, IIRC.
And then somehow or other there was a bit of unpleasantness with Finland, wasn't there?
Later, they also massively used Soviet slaves in order to fuel their war machine and factories. Without them, it would have been harder or impossible for Nazi Germany to continue the war. This is partly why they switched from "kill all Soviets on sight" to "extermination through labor".
Germany invaded because they needed resources that they couldn't get elsewhere. Letting them bootstrap that into the invasion, among all of the mistakes that were made in WWII, seems like it might have been one of the top ones.
None of this detracts from the fact the Soviet Union was ome of the biggest victims in WW2 and that they were traumatized by this.
The Soviet Union was a disaster, and certainly the they did a lot of things to other countries that they shouldn't have. But they were a clear victim in WWII; the amount of blood they shed was absolutely unreal.
It also misrepresents the nature of the relationship between the two powers. Germany was gearing for war against the Soviet Union, it was the sine qua non of Hitler's plan, which he even detailed in writing years before.
Have you any comments to make about these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Credit_A...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Commerci...
"there is one common element in the ideology of Germany, Italy and the Soviet Union: opposition to the capitalist democracies"
>It also misrepresents the nature of the relationship between the two powers.
How? As you say, Germany was gearing for war, how does that contradict the Soviet Union supplying them with the means?
Because that's the subthread you're replying to.
The USSR was traumatized by war with Nazi Germany and it definitely informed their following geopolitical decisions, so that their territory would never be invaded again.
It seems you're trying to contest this with some weird tangent.
No, I don't endorse that statement.
The leaders of the USSR, like Stalin, enabled the Nazis to invade and kill millions of people (perhaps millions of non-Russians too) by sending them raw materials prior to the attack. That's not a claim about intent, or victimhood or a personified USSR.
If that is/had been identified as the mistake, it wouldn't seem so logical to build an empire for protection. That's why this is not a tangent.
Good to know!
> The leaders of the USSR, like Stalin, enabled the Nazis to invade and kill millions of people (perhaps millions of non-Russians too) by sending them raw materials prior to the attack.
Agreed. However, context matters: the trade immediately helped Nazi Germany's war effort, which in turn allowed them to execute operation Barbarossa. At the same time, the Soviet Union was desperately in need of modernizing their army and they didn't have many allies in a situation to assist them; out of this collaboration with Nazi Germany came the advanced tank designs they later used to beat the Germans. Still, not losing millions of people to the war would have been better.
The Soviets knew they were playing with fire. Hitler never hid his plans for the Soviet Union; it was the sine qua non of Nazi Germany, where most of its "lebensraum" would be acquired. But what else could they do? We are playing armchair diplomats/generals here. Remember the world was wildly different back then; empires still existed and Churchill still wanted a British Empire. Alliances that make no sense now might have made more sense then.
> If that is/had been identified as the mistake, it wouldn't seem so logical to build an empire for protection.
I disagree. The Soviet Union had more enemies, of which Nazi Germany turned out to be the most immediate one. Let's remember the West initially considered letting Germany and the Soviet Union damage each other, and saw Germany as a valuable assert against communism. They even toyed briefly with allying with the remnants of the Wehrmacht to defeat the Soviet Union after WWII! That this was even considered, albeit briefly and by few people, shows the Soviet Union was at least partly right to be paranoid.
>But they were a clear victim in WWII; the amount of blood they shed was absolutely unreal.
If I've understood your intent correctly, you probably want "...the amount of their blood that was shed...". My understanding of "blood they shed was absolutely unreal" would be that they were killing others in massive amounts.
If 'IIRC' then you should at least check Wikipedia on events what preceded Molotov-Ribbentrop. It surely wasn't a a great sunny day when Molotov called Ribbentrop and said "Hey, Josha! I have a great idea this morning! Let's split Poland!"
If you extend the starting date to maybe autumn 1918 (Polish–Soviet War, Poland's invasion while Russia is in the state of civil war), then it can be considered as less bad, with some justifications that are not out of the historical norm.
Though that Polish invasion from 1918 can be considered as preemptive (defence from evil bolsheviks, trying to recover pre-1772 borders).
Though that Soviet invasion from 1939 can be considered as preemptive (defence from evil capitalists and fascists, trying to restore pre-1921 borders).
Though it is hard to do similar mental gymnastics with relation to invasion of Finland.
Well, again context helps (like you showed in the other parts of your comment). Note my comment does not imply the Soviet Union was right in waging war against Finland:
From Wikipedia's article on the Winter War:
> "Joseph Stalin regarded it a disappointment that the Soviet Union could not halt the Finnish revolution. He thought that the pro-Finland movement in Karelia posed a direct threat to Leningrad and that the area and defences of Finland could be used to invade the Soviet Union or restrict fleet movements. During Stalin's rule, Soviet propaganda painted Finland's leadership as a "vicious and reactionary fascist clique"
Again, Stalin's fear and paranoia about other powers invading its territory, which in turn mandated creating buffer or safe zones around the Soviet Union. It's not outlandish, given the USSR's many actual enemies and their history of interference within Russian.
His fears partially proved true (with some degree of self-fulfilling prophecy) when Finland played a (limited) role in assisting the Germans with Barbarossa and the Siege of Leningrad.
Context - yes, it helps. Though it is hard (impossible?) to construct an encompassing enough context for complex historical events. And it is sometimes too easy to use partial contexts to to help people to perceive events in the right way.
I did not read your comment as telling that invasion of Finland was right. I do consider fear and paranoia existing at that time about external powers as justified.
On "Appeasement" wikipedia page you can read about perception that "fascism was a useful form of anti-communism" held by many.
And as far as I know, Soviet Union was preparing to wage a large war in Europe (just not in 1941).
Part about mental gymnastics - well, that was about what I wrote about justifications. I do not consider it right to justify invasions. Especially when I'm talking about justifications used by a country I was born in / lived almost all my life. But I felt a need to say something in defence of an opinion containing more nuance (yours).
I consider as bad a lot of things that were happening at that time (at any time in history?).
Now that I looking at the chain of the messages - it looks like I've tried to defend (in my own strange way) a comment that was trying to defend another comment =)
Why not start counting WWII from the Munich Agreement [0] of September 1938 when Britain and France gave Hitler a go ahead to occupy Czechoslovakia? This capitulation by Western powers greatly expanded hitler's appetite craving for more.
The belief about "western capitalism first strike" was one of the major fuels for the paranoia spiral involved in soviet foreign affairs, combined with experiences starting from western support of "Whites" during revolution, through the rather belligerent actions (especially from USA) once Truman was POTUS (and well, all of Truman doctrine and its long-term effects). A non-trivial issue that shows up from reading as stuff becomes declassified is how both sides constantly misunderstood each other, leading to (in hindsight idiotic) situation where initial ideas about disarmament on Soviet side turn into Berlin airlift. Meanwhile Austrian politicians figure out how to get everyone to leave by making the country neutral. It also didn't help that in Poland we probably didn't finish burying our dead in Warsaw when USA drawn up plans to nuke it as part of nuclear first strike on USSR, plans that I have little doubt were heard in Moscow, further fueling the spiral of cold war.
So the end result is a paranoid regime (and from paranoid to controlling there isn't even a step, it's a blink) that, even when some forces try to reduce said paranoia, they stumble upon evidence that it's warranted, resulting in nobody willing to back off (on USA side, you can probably shift some proportions and replace paranoiacs with "communism must die!" die hard ideologists). In the end it's not even one side playing checkers while the other plays chess - it's two sides playing long-distance play-by-mail chess where they delegate their moves to be done by a pigeon[1].
As for propaganda - consider that both sides, to a certain extent, bought into their own propaganda, sometimes even those that should know that a specific aspect of it was false (like JFK strong arming USSR to take missiles out of Cuba, instead of admitting that the missiles were taken away in exchange for removal of the reason they were placed there - which was USA placing missiles in Turkey).
As much as the books are fiction, John Le Carre summarised it pretty well in The Secret Pilgrim although from the western PoV (but similar take could be probably pretty much taken about soviets on the average):
Smiley muses that the most vulgar thing about the Cold War was that the Western societies learned to "gobble up [their] own propaganda." The West became so convinced of the righteousness of its own cause, and the evil of the Soviets', that it never stopped to examine the ethics of its actions. In the name of expediency, the Circus opened its arms – and its purse – to every petty thug and two-bit con man who called himself an anti-Communist.
[1] Referencing a polish idiom about playing chess with pigeon - not only does it not know how to play, it will push the pieces away and shit on the board.
Which parts? That the Soviets feared a NATO first strike, or at least deemed it a real enough possibility to prepare for it, is true (see: "Seven Days to the River Rhine"). That they Cuban missile crisis was a consequence of the US placing missiles in Turkey is fact. That the Soviets were fearful of the West and paranoid about signs of their interference is fact. That Finland was left alone because of its neutrality is fact. And the list goes on.
PS: Le Carré wrote fiction but also had real insight into the intelligence world, having worked in it. And what his fiction states is absolutely true: the West, in its eagerness to combat communism, supported, aided and propped up all sorts of ruthless murderers and dictators as long as they declared themselves anticommunists.
For example, western germany happily supported the RENAMO in the Mozambican Civil War - and the US at least contemplated support until the sheer scale of atrocities committed was too big to ignore. One million people died in this conflict. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambican_Civil_War
However understanding the reasoning can help figure out why, what, and how things happened, and it's useful for actually stopping to believe in propaganda and, most importantly, keep seeing the other side as people - even if horrible people (then you might figure out the levers to pull).
As for Carre - I picked it out, because he wrote it better (on basis of his own professional experience, even) than I had the idea for, about believing one's own propaganda.
I guess we are left with two superpowers doing evil just to be evil.